here's some innovative grading

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Posted By: leon

Just imagine what this would be graded if the WHOLE thing were there.....shoot, might get an 11 or something...as it is the seller says it's vg+ ??

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1803835614

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Posted By: MW

Leon --

It seems to me that you are inferring that the seller (mwcards) is me. It's not and I'm insulted!!!

Actually Leon, I'm only kidding...but I did keep my favorite half of the card (the bottom) for sentimental reasons!

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Posted By: Elliot

There is way too many MW's....Michael Wentz, Mike Williams, Mike Wheat, etc. etc......:)

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Posted By: Mike Williams

Since most George C. Millers are cancelled....what should the card grade as such? Should it be knocked down to Poor-Fair due to the cancellation? Curious what everyone thinks.

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Posted By: leon

I knew it was Mike Wheat Cards unless you are not still BMW Methinks ( ) that this card should not grade above poor-fr.....or maybe in the eyes of some dealers as ex (with note to cancellation).....which is bs...in my opinion.....regards

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Posted By: petecld

That is a good question.

My vote would have to go for calling it Poor at best. It's an incomplete card.

Know what the really ironic thing is? The premium some kid got for sending in his cards is worth NOTHING compared to the price of these cards that are UNcanceled.

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Posted By: Elliot

The card can only be Poor. Otherwise, it's like saying that sets that have poor centering should have different criteria for grading. Obviously, for Millers there will be a lot more cards that are graded poor than the normal set, and this will be taken into consideration with regards to the price, much as with Old Judges.

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Posted By: MW

I think in situations where there is a tab, coupon, or other part of a card that is structurally designed to be detached, the card can still be considered "high-grade." If, however, the detachable part is an intrinsic portion of the card, it can be graded no better than fair.

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Posted By: Glen V

Should Zeenuts, Num Nums, Red Man, etc. without coupons be graded as poor?

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Posted By: MW

Obviously, a card with a coupon is worth more than a card without a coupon, but if the coupon is meant to be properly detached, can't both cards hypothetically grade Near Mint? In these cases, perhaps we should think more about the value of "canceled" cards rather than the technical grade.

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Posted By: HalleyGator

I hate to even discuss a MODERN card on this board ...

but the Sports Illustrated for Kids Tiger Woods rookie card is "detached" on all four sides -- as it was designed to do -- and it has been graded as high as Gem Mint 10 in some very rare instances.

Thus, my vote would be that a card that is DESIGNED with perforations that are SUPPOSED to be torn can indeed be graded as high as possible (assuming that the tear is done as neatly and straight as possible).

Likewise ... I don't think T201's and T202's should be PUNISHED for being folded when they were SUPPOSED to be folded ... but what do I know???

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Posted By: jay behrens

Having some experience with ZeeNuts I can tell you that collectors will not take offense if you grade a couponless card as NM if it has been properly trimmed since it does not affect the picture. Having the coupon is just an extra bonus that carries a premium. In the case of the Millers, since the picture is heavily impacted, there is no way that one can grade higher than F-P. It is one of those rare sets where condition be damned, you buy what shows up. That card certainly looks decent, but even if you click on their grading standards, if should grade better than poor since a portion of the card is missing.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

See, told you I forget the word 'not' a lot.

I wrote:

>should grade better than poor since a portion of the card is missing.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

Let me be the devils advocate (and BTW the "anonymous" devil need not reply to this..I like to know who's messin' with me ) and say that as a purist I feel the cards that have something attached, and then detached, are not nmt cards. This is ONLY MY opinion, and in fact may only be "my" opinion and no one else's, but who cares. Up until recently I did not own a Zeenut, except an '11 Weaver, and a 1912 Home Run Kisses, because I had not found a nice Zeenut with a coupon on it. I now am the proud owner of a '16 Baum-with coupon...in exmt-nrmt no less......just my bald headed opinion......regards all..

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Posted By: MW

Halleygator,

I agree that T201s and T202s, by nature, have to be unfolded to be graded since they originally came in folded form. In this case, no deductions should be made in grading.

As far as perforated cards are concerned, I don't agree. There are some issues for which perforated cards can be separated from the whole without any loss in value or even with a possible gain in value. Some issues, however, such as 1962 Topps CFL football and 1980-81 basketball, are nearly worthless once they have been separated.

Curiously, I think hobby standards have changed over time. In the 1970s and early 1980s I recall that Red Man Tobacco cards had nearly the same value, with or without the perforated portion.

Perhaps some perforated cards (such as the SI for Kids Tiger Woods) are worth more in a detached state solely because of grading.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I can see both sides of the issue and both have equally valid points. For me, as long as the picture and anything else, such as stats, text, etc. are in tact after the coupon is removed, then the card is fine.

Another example would be the Clover Leaf/Apple Fresh Dairy Twins set from 1961-2. If they are not on complete cartons of milk are they no better than F-P since they were trimmed off the carton? The same could be said of the Wheaties cards also.

Jay

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Posted By: Marc S.

For another example of where grading has increased the "value" of cards -- look at the Kelloggs sets from 1973 through the 1980s.

The sets, as listed in factory form, came in sheets of three cards (sometimes more -- always three across, but the top and bottom sheets were not always attached).

At any rate, up until one or two years ago, Kelloggs cards were worth about $50- in complete factory set form. Today, with the advent of grading, GEM MINT 10 examples go for the hundreds of dollars.

There are some Kelloggs sets for which this does not apply, of course. 1970 is the most prominent example.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Mark Macrae, who collects everything that originated on the west coast, is very proud of his Zeenuts with coupons, and picks them up whenever he can. I have 4=5 Zeenuts, none of which have coupons, but all of which are VG at best ANYWAY, so I never worried about it. Obviously, if something was issued as part of a card, the card is more valuable with it than without it.

Julie

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Posted By: jay behrens

Mark probably taught me more about the hobby than anyone else. And showed me more rare cards than anyone. When I moved to Cali, he was one of the few dealers that didn't immediately stereotype me as a punkrocker that was looking to steal from his table. It was always funny when people would actually take the time to talk to me and then see thier jaw hit the floor when they realised just how much I really knew and the dealers I had gotten to know on the East Coast.

Jay

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Posted By: vorthian

<< (assuming that the tear is done as neatly and straight as possible). >>

Anybody have the PSA 10 tear-technique mastered? BTW, I have read that if you cut the perforations, it will be returned with an "evidence of trimming" label.

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Posted By: David

For the benifit of the someone unfamiliar with the issue, it would have been best to detail what cancelling means. Other than that, I don't have a problem with the grading.

As far as Red Man goes, I have always given a straight grade for what is in front of me, and say whether there is or is not a tab. '1953 Red Man Willie Mays With No Tab Near Mint' is a perfectly acceptable grade to me. It's my job to give an accurate description, not to spood feed.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I just noticed the guy on the card is wearing glasses. I've been out of the hobby a long time, but I cannot think of another card, pre WW2, that shows a player wearing glasses. There aren't many post WW2 for that matter.

Even though I don't wear glasses, The 1971 Topps Lowell Palmer has always been one of favorite cards because he was wearing his Ray Ban Ballorama sunglasses.

Jay

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Posted By: David

Though I have a 1933 Goudey Dick Bartell where someone drew glasses on him

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Posted By: Brian Parker

When you take on the task of tackling a large swath of Zeenuts, as I have over the past few years, you quickly lower your standards when it comes to condition. Tape, wax, writing on both front and back, corners lopped off, cards cut into ovals, you name the intentionally created defect, Zeenuts have them in abundance. You can imagine that the majority of the people who seriously collect them probably detest the whole concept of slabbed cards like I do. So whether the fact that their tab has been removed (quite often torn off) or not, makes not a bit of difference--it still is a card depicting a player from the distant past that some kid thought enough of to butcher. Of course the ones with the coupons are desirable, but to think that you can complete even a single year of them in this condition would be highly delusional, indeed.

By the way, I do agree with the logic that cards with tabs designed to be removed should not be downgraded if their removal does not affect the portion of the card above the tab. When a type of card is typically found without the tab, such as with Zeenuts, the fact that it has been removed does not need to be stated; otherwise the grade should be accompanied with a statement to this effect. A card like this could be called Near Mint, as long the removal is also stated.

A card that has had a portion of its design removed should of course be mentioned along with the grade. Thus the George Miller card lot with the grade of Vg is ok, but in this case the 'cancelled' description is not adequate, as collectors unfamiliar with this set might not realize that a third of the card's design has been removed.

And finally, Mark MaCrae is the man, bar none.

Brian

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Posted By: Elliot

Chick Hafey in Diamond Stars.