Bonds just beat out Rickey Henderson for all-time walks...

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...took that big square thing off the field to add to his collection.

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Posted By: Paul M

Guess they're not counting all of those walks Rickey gettin' for the Newark Bears, eh ?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

....is he really getting lots?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

We are watching one of the most amazing ballplayers of all time, albeit one desperately in need of a personality transplant.

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Posted By: Paul M

Especially amazing is Mays is only 17th and Aaron 22nd on the all time walks list. Bonds has a chance to move into top five in runs scored RBI's and join the 3000 hit club before he hangs 'em up...and he's doing all of this not as a DH !!..oh yeah his career avg has now risen to within 3 points of Mays' as well

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Posted By: John/z28jd

Its amazing that he has 121 walks at the midway point and with 63 intentional walks he has a good chance at getting 100 of those in one season.Barring injury,hes going to get 200 walks in one year

He has also been on base 10 more times than he has ABs
176 AB 62 hits 121 walks 3 hbp.72 games played and 186 times on base is nintendo-like numbers

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Posted By: jay behrens

If anyone reads Jayson Stark on ESPN, he listed all the records he is on pace to break this year. Single season OPS, OBP, Slugging%, IBB and BB that I can remeber off the top of my head. And the amazing thing about all the raving all the sports writers are doing about Bonds, there hasn't been one peep about him being juiced.

Jay

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Posted By: warshawlaw

it doesn't make him a great hitter. That skill he developed from a combo of great genetics and hard work. I am most impressed by his discipline. As Rogers Hornsby told Ted Williams: "Get a good pitch to hit."

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Posted By: jay behrens

Don't me wrong, I love Bonds and could care less if he juiced or not. As you pointed out, it still doesn't make you a great a hitter. If it did, we'd see everyone from the WWE and NFL playing baseball.

Jay

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Posted By: Glen V

Bonds is a prick, tells off his own fans, complains about every strike, and doesn't even try at times. I wouldn't be surprised if Bonds fans told me they loved Saddam for being a great leader. And you honestly think that steroids and human growth hormones don't help a player see the ball better and have a better reaction time? That an aging batter becomes the best all-time after joining up with BALCO? Or that doing it is OK? Its not like a bunch of kids would ever follow suit, follow their hero and mess up their bodies or die due to steroids.

On a lighter note, Bonds probably has the record for taking the most strikes that were called balls of any hitter. One manager said his strike zone was smaller than a laptop computer. One game announcer had this to say during a game: "And the pitcher starts off Bonds with a strike. Last week, he started with two strikes, but they were both called balls. (Bonds had glared at the ump again.) It gets tiring watching Bonds complain about every pitch called a strike that he doesn't swing at. Of course, not too many umpires call strikes on him. Well, this one did. Welcome to the strike zone of everyone else..." If Bonds is tired of getting walked, maybe he should swing at some of the strikes!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

When they re-make "Field of Dreams" in 2094...

Instead of Ty Cobb it will be Barry Bonds that they don't invite back to play because "nobody liked him when he was alive."

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Posted By: Gary B.

Barry Bonds is the greatest ballplayer of the last 30 years IMHO. Personally, it annoys the hell out of me that people can't appreciate his amazing accomplishments without mentioning steroids and how they don't like his personality in the same breath. It detracts from what he does on the ballfield.

Is there anyone here who doesn't hold the accomplishments of Ty Cobb in the highest regard with extreme reverence? He was arguably the greatest ballplayer of all time, and he makes Bonds look like a choir boy. Regarding the great steroid debacle, more importantly to me than the fact that he's a fantastic ballplayer regardless (does being on steroids assist one in not swinging at bad pitches?), I am a very strong believer based on intense personal experience that one is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. I can accuse any one of you of anything I want to, and that would color the way other people looked at you forever regardless of whether you did it or not. Is that fair? I don't think so.

Bonds is the only person who I currently idolize in professional baseball (although many others, Clemens especially, impress me greatly). The numbers he's put up over the last 4 years especially are right up there with the greatest numbers ever produced by anyone. Some of his more amazing achievements:

Single season home runs: Beats McGwire, Sosa, Maris, Greenberg, Foxx, Mantle, Mays...hmmmm, oh yeah, some guy named Babe Ruth.

Career home runs: 3rd place, Beats Mays, Mantle, Williams, and everyone else except Aaron and Ruth, but not for long...

Single season on base percentage: 1st place, Beats Ted Williams, John McGraw, Babe Ruth...

Career on base percentage: 6th place, beats Hornsby, Cobb, Foxx, Speaker - only Williams, Ruth, McGraw, Billy Hamilton and Gehrig beat him

Single season slugging percentage: 1st place, Beats Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Rogers Hornsby, McGwire, Foxx, Sosa...

Career slugging percentage: 5th place, only Ruth, Williams, Gehrig & Foxx beat him

Single season walks: 1st place, Beats Ruth, McGwire, Williams - will demolish his own record this season

Single season intentional walks: 1st place, Beats everyone by a mile - will obliterate his own record this season

Need I say more? I would think those who admire the amazing players of yesteryear, like those on this board, would appreciate the only man playing today who is worthy to be mentioned in the same breath with some of the very best of the best.

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Posted By: Gary B.

Bonds is only the 6th player ever to reach 2000 runs. He'll definitley catch Mays, whether or not he catches Rose, Ruth, Aaron, Cobb or Henderson is a matter of how long he manages to survive in the game.

Bonds is "only" 16th on the all time RBI list, but he'll move a good bit higher on that list before he's done. If he had played on better teams, he'd be a lot higher already.

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Posted By: steve k

I grow tired sometimes from the Ty Cobb and Barry Bonds bashing. I will admit that Ty Cobb is one of my favorite players. Comparisons between Ty Cobb and Barry Bonds are not valid. Ty Cobb was not like Barry Bonds. Barry Bonds is a pompous jerk. The HOF has a fair amount of pompous jerks. Ty Cobb though played the game to win, and his on-field behavior was similar to many other players of his era. The faults Ty Cobb had, have been magnified because of his greatness.

Ty Cobb and Barry Bonds are great assets to the game of baseball. I don’t care what Ty Cobb allegedly did off the field. I don’t care what Barry Bonds is swallowing or injecting. Virtually every player in professional sports is swallowing or injecting something to improve and enhance their performance. If you are thinking this can’t be true then that is being very naïve. This is happening even at a high school level. Do I condone this? Of course not! Would I like to see all drugs and steroids go away? Of course! But Ty Cobb is clearly the second greatest player of all time, next to Ruth, and Barry Bonds is going to go down in MLB history as one of the greatest players (top five) of all time - whether the Bonds bashers like it or not.

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Posted By: John/z28jd

Im not going to go all out like the last 2 people did but i hate how everytime Barry Bonds name is mentioned someone has to start bashing him,and some people really go overboard with comments theres no call for just because they dont like the guy.

I dont know how a thread about his walk record turned into a Bonds hating thread but im glad theres more people smart enough to realize what hes doing than their is people blinded by their dislike for him

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Posted By: jay behrens

Glen, did you forget your meds today? Saying that fans of Bonds also think Saddam is a great leader is even more over the top than anything Rush Dimbulb says. I guess Bonds must have done something personally to your Wheaties one morning to develope the hatered you seem to have for Bonds. Take a chill pill, sit back and enjoy what Bonds is doing. If steroids makes it so easy for Bonds to be great, than why aren't the other juice freaks playing just as well as Bonds?

And I'm not sure just how much of Bonds personality problems are a creation of the media and how much is actually Bonds. I've watched as much baseball as most of you over the years and I never picked up on this personality problem outside the typical writer not getting what he wanted from Bonds. And I've watched him closely since he came to SF. Maybe it was something that developed on the East Coast and with their media. Take a look at Steve Carlton. The media hated the guy, mainly because he refused to cooperate with them. I've met Carlton on several occasions and always found him to pleasant. Don't forget, sports writers make thier living off these players and if they don't get what they want from them, they are likely write something nasty about if that player.

As for "his strike zone", give me a break. All the elite players, batters and pitchers, get preferential treament when it comes to balls and strikes. The top hitters get a smaller strike sone, the top pitchers getting a bigger strike zone. How many fewer strikeouts would Clemens and RJ have if they got the same strike as Jason Jennings or some other bum?

Jay

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Posted By: John/z28jd

Jay is right on with the media starting stuff that might not really be there and with Bonds starting in Pittsburgh i have a good example with helps that case.

Tony Alvarez is a minor leaguer with the Pirates whos been quoted as having an attitude problem.I used to write for the Pirates so ive talked to alot of other writers,especially recently when Alvarez got recalled.

There is a couple writers who follow the team day in and day out who say Alvarez is no more than a 5th outfielder and it just so happens these writers have had personal run-ins with him and interviews.When I talk to writers who can not let personal experiences get in the way of how they report they all have higher regard for Alvarez.

The 2 reporters who hadnt seen him play a game since he was in the majors in sept 2002 were commenting on how bad his fielding was but when i talk to a reporter who is able to go to alot of minor league games he tells a different story.

It really makes you wonder how so many reporters let their personal life get in the way of doing their job right.Being longtime Pirates writers as most of them are its little wonder a guy like Bonds can get a bad rep that has followed him thru his career

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Posted By: bcornell

And I'm not sure just how much of Bonds personality problems are a creation of the media

Not a chance - Bonds' poor image is his own doing. For a recent example - 2 weeks ago, before the Boston-SF series, Bonds called Boston a racist town. Of course, he had never been there (he skipped out on the '99 All-Star game). Ellis Burks (former Bonds teammate, now on Boston's DL) was honest enough to say that Barry was, yet again, full of it.

The guy is a great player and one of the biggest jerks ever to take the field.

Bill

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

and Hal, it's "Nobody could stand the son-of-a-bitch when he was alive." Actually...whooops, there goes THIS post.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Bonds isn't the first Black to make that comment. Was it a stupid comment? Yes, but I'm sure he is just as guilty of stereotyping as anyone else. It's not like Boston has a sterling reputation for racial harmony, espcially for a Northern city.

I personally don't care if an athlete is a jerk or not. I am in the Charles Barkley camp of "athletes are not, and should not, be role models". When it comes to sports, all I care about is how they perform on the field.

Jay

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Posted By: bcornell

Jay-

If you want to be an apologist for the biggest jerk to step on the field since Ted Williams, you've got your work cut out for you. The guy can't do a 5-second postgame soundbite without coming across as what he is - a monstrous egomaniac.

Bonds moans that McGwire got favorable treatment during the '98 home run race, but he can't remember that Sosa was also a participant.

Living now near SF, I can state that Giants fans are the worst baseball fans I've ever seen - they actually want to change the rules of baseball for intentional walks to favor him. A typical headline here: "Bonds goes 1-3 with a homer; Giants Don't Win". Aaron and Ruth deserve better company.

Bill

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Posted By: jay behrens

Not an apologist for Bonds, just tired of people whining about his personality when it has no bearing on his game and the numbers he puts up. He's not the first super start fans and writers have disliked, and he won't be the last. Just be glad you live in the SF area now and can go hangout at the Knot Hole and watch Bonds knock balls into the Cove. I just wished I still lived in downtown SF, I'd have a permanent camp set up at the Knot Hole.

Jay

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Course, there weren't any black people in it, either...

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Sorry, but what in the world does Bonds skipping the 99 All-Star Game in Boston have to do with his comments about the city? If he had been to the city once or twice for an All-Star game, would that somehow make him an authority on whether it was a racist place or not?

Bonds' comment (which I don't condone, but do understand) actually has some pretty solid historical basis where baseball is concerned. Boston was the last MLB team to integrate by a substantial margin. Stories of Red Sox team dissension, often racially based, persisted through the Yaz years. In the early 1970s Boston was the site of the worst protests against forced busing of any city above the Mason-Dixon line-- and whatever one thinks of busing, the South Boston protests were not done primarily out of noble motives.

From the few times I've been there, I love Boston. But I'm not black.

My ultimate point is not to bash Boston, which I believe to be one of the greatest American cities, but to suggest that everything Bonds does (everything negative, anyway) gets seized upon and magnified by Bonds haters (some of whom apparently equate him with Saddam Hussein !!!!???).

Let the guy play, let him make obnoxious comments, and watch him smash the record book in half. I think it's exciting. As Jay says, athletes aren't (or shouldn't be) role models, positive or negative.

Tim

PS: Bostonians, don't come gunning for me-- I don't have it in for your city. I come from a place that had slaves until 1865, so I don't pretend to be holier than thou.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

black nanny till I was 5--so THERE, and you can come gunning for me any time, and usually do. I am so ENVIOUS of anyone who grew up ANYWHERE in New England, I can taste it.

Of course later she named my sister after her, Amanda (means beloved).

I love the way Bonds' bat just meets the ball--and it's gone...

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Posted By: Gary B.

"The guy can't do a 5-second postgame soundbite without coming across as what he is - a monstrous egomaniac."

There's an interesting pheonomeom that seems to be taking place here, but perhaps it's only my own perception. I lost interest in baseball for several years after the strike, and only followed it peripherally. I was brought back to it by the excitement of the McGwire/Sosa event of 98, and I didn't really pay a lot of attention to Bonds until his run for beating the two of them in 2001. I had only heard about the legend of Bonds' unpleasant personality, but I never really got to see it myself. My point here is I think that people form an opinion of someone, and it colors the way they look at anything they say or do from that point onward. I see him do these same soundbites, and I don't see what the person above sees at all. Even when he does have somewhat of an ego about what he does, my God, doesn't he deserve to be proud of what he can do? After all, no one else can do what he can do.

While Bonds might not always be the friendliest of sports heros to the media, is that a reason to detest him so much? I seem to remember McGwire in 98 when he was getting CONSTANT media attention, not always being the nicest and friendliest of guys. He could be quite bristly and off-putting to the press, and no one really seemed to hold that against him. I thought then like some people think about Bonds now, that if he wants to be surly, I could care less - just keep dazzling us with your homers and I'm a happy camper.

I've heard SOME of the historical reasons that people seem to remember as the reason they hate Bonds, but I just don't get it. As far as I'm concerned, if the guy wants some privacy and is a little off-putting to the media in some instances, who really gives a s**t? The way that man plays, I could care less. I don't watch him play baseball and demand that he be a sparkling personality outside of the game as well. I like him because of the way he plays baseball. I think it's just a shame that people can't enjoy his accomplishements, which are truly legendary, without it being effected by how they perceive him, often, as far as I can tell, because they made a decision about him long ago, and are unwilling to ever see him in any other light.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

is that he is a rich kid from San Mateo trying to sound "street". Yes, he's black; so are a lot of other people. IMHO, his comments on race get picked on more than others (calling Boston a racist town; like Bill Russell hadn't already been saying that for 30 years) because he's never been denied a thing because of his race. It just doesn't ring true.

That he doesn't have much use for sportswriters is probably a positive

The main problem he does have is that he does so many things that show his contempt for the public and for his teammates. He blows off people seeking autographs, pulls out of the union's merchandising efforts so he can cut his own deals, insists on special perks in the clubhouse, cannot get along with quality players on his team, says mean-spirited things publicly about legendary players (like Ruth), etc. He seems to have no appreciation for the people who came before him, the fans who support him, or the health of the sport itself.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've gotten exactly the opposite impression of Bonds, that he is very much aware of the history of the game and who came before him. I doubt he's as well versed in the history as David Wells or Curt Schilling, but he knows what he needs to know about it and what potential place in it is. I do believe him to a degree that all he wants is a ring, but I also have no doubt that as long as stays healthy, he will stick around until he has the HR record and as many others trying to secure his place as possibly the greatest player every.

Jay

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Posted By: prewarsports

What Ben Johnson did in the 1988 Olympics was amazing. He smashed the record for the 100 meter dash that still has not been equalled and he was a far superior athlete to all those around him. How come nobody is running around making justifications for him and signing his praises? Because he was a cheater. I do not care what an athlete is doing, if they are taking steroids it doesn't matter! I dont care about Bond's personality. There is no doubt he took steroids, to think otherwise would be like buying a PRO graded card that is 1/2 inch short all the way around but wanting it to be unaltered so badly that you just buy it.

I will give Bonds his due credit the day they give Ben Johnon his olympic medals back. Oh ya, and the guy cant throw out a crippled old man from medium shortstop range with a ticket to the World Series on the line. If he had been on steroids then, he might also have a world series ring. His walk total might have something to do with the 97 carat Diamond in his ear that faces the pitchers. You cant look directly at Barry on a sunny day or the reflection will leave you blinded for a good 2-3 minutes.

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Posted By: jay behrens

BIG difference between Ben Johnson and Barry Bonds. Steroids was not illegal in baseball until very recently. Steroids has been illegal in track and field for decades.

Jay

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Posted By: Gary B.

whatever happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY? if we don't believe in that, we might as well just chuck out the whole legal system and start burning people at the stake for anything they're accused of, regardless if they did anything wrong or not. Let's cruify those that have been implicated in anything for that matter...jeez.

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Posted By: Marc S.

With Edgar Alfonzo "protecting" Bonds in the batting order - why wouldn't you give Bonds a free pass, too?

Bonds has the same number of RBI's as Alfonzo, despite nearly 100 less at-bats, and also given that he is on base over 62% of the time when Alfonzo is at-bat.

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Contrary to an earlier post, Ben Johnson's time of 9.79 in the '88 Olympics has been equalled (Maurice Greene in 1999) and surpassed (Tim Montgomery in 2002, though if steroid allegations are correct, we may be back to M. Greene).

What may not be equalled is Johnson's time by a runner with a large gold chain around his neck, a uniform that's not exactly aerodynamic like today's gear, and those large veins in his arms providing wind resistance. How fast could a 'roid-full Johnson have run with today's equipment (shoes, skintight spandex, etc.)? How much further can the 100m mark drop, legally or illegally?

Back to Bonds . . . . To summarize, the next generation, examining his baseball stats in the record books or on-line, won't see anything noted about how he handled the press, how rude he was, or his connection to BALCO. All the next generation will see in the Baseball Encyclopedia is a guy with probably over 700 home runs, a ton of walks, a decent batting average, and someone to debate about who's the best non-pitcher ever to play the game (vs. Mays, Aaron, Cobb, Ruth, and others, maybe A-Rod someday). Appreciate his skills, assume he's clean unless shown not to be clean, and get out to a ballpark to see him live before he retires, so you can tell your kids and grandkids about the fear he instilled in opposing managers, the respect he got from pitchers, and the Roy Hobbs way his bat connects with the ball in his later years.

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Posted By: John/z28jd

Only 42 guys in the history on baseball have had more walks in a season as Bonds has this year in 84 team games.Those 42 guys,one being Bonds have eclipsed 124 walks a total of 93 times.If you compare it to the all-time home run list,it would be like having 45 homers at this point of the season.

One game tho vs the Rockies today,with Clint Hurdle managing and he said he wouldnt pitch to Bonds,and Bonds can move up that list pretty quickly.The Rockies won yesterday walking Bonds 3 times,so chances are they will do it again.

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Posted By: Chris

With all due respect Gary, Barry Bonds is not on trial in this forum but all of us are entitled to have our opinion on whether or not he is juiced. What we think makes no difference and has no bearing on what ultimately happens. It is human nature to form opinions on people based on things we see. We are all capable of forming those opinions. It doesn't mean we have put Barry on trial and convicted him of this. I personally think he is using. You know what they say, where there is smoke, there is fire. Could I be wrong? Of course. I am not a Bonds fan but a great admirer of what he is doing regardless of if he is juiced or not. People who feel like steroids don't really help that much are quite naive. They help build muscle mass as well as improve your eyesight. Regardless, the guy is doing something nobody has ever seen so we marvel at it. Seems things are getting a little heated on this topic. You either like the guy or you don't. I respect both sides and am probably somewhat on both sides. I think if it does turn out he is juiced it is somewhat of a cloud. It is cheating. If cheating is ok maybe it is ok to cork your bat. One lst note, if I am not mistaken, steroids have been illegal in baseball for quite sometime but they just never tested for it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't think anyone believes that steroids don't help you in some way. They do to some degree, but not to the degree that it turns you into the super-human ball player that Bonds has become. If it was the case, we'd see lot more players at the level that Bonds is at.

Jay

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Posted By: Chris

I agree that Bonds would be great if he did or did not use but if he is using, it is still cheating. There are lots of great hitters that would be great if they corked or didn't cork. But corking your bat gives you an unfair advantage and is cheating. Just as using banned substances is cheating. I think too many people take it too lightly and some take it too seriously. I guess I just wish everybody was on an even playing field to start and the ones that worked the hardest and had the best talent were rewarded. Not the ones that cheat and break the rules. There's a reason people are thrown out of games and suspended when they are found to have corked bats or doctored the baseball to get an advantage. I bet there are a lot of legitimate players out there who are really p***ed of that there are some who cheat. It has to really upset the ones that are doing it the right way. How can it not? I know it would upset me.

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Posted By: Gary B.

"With all due respect Gary, Barry Bonds is not on trial in this forum but all of us are entitled to have our opinion on whether or not he is juiced."

I guess my point is that I understand he's not on trial, but in many people's minds he's already been tried and convicted. I guess I feel passionately about this because I've been accused of something in the past that I had to go to trial for to prove my innocence. The legal system is founded on the premise that people are innocent until proven guilty, but usually it works in exactly the opposite way, and no one can seem to escape the taint of an accusation, regardless of their innocence or guilt.

The thing that bugs me is that SOOOOO many people I come across I try to talk to about Barry Bonds, and they are so totally and completely dismissive of him either because of his personality or his alleged steroid use, that they cannot appreciate his unbelievable accomplishments. I can't even initiate a conversation with them because in their minds he's already guilty and not worthy of serious discussion. Naturally, people are entitled to their own opinions, but I just think it's sad. One of the best baseball players we've seen in a VERY long time is right in front of us still playing, and some people have a complete blind spot to him because of their peripheral reasoning. I'm not saying that you feel this way, as you have said otherwise, but many people do. It's sad, and that's just the way I feel about it.

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Posted By: Chris

I agree Gary. I think you pretty much hit it right on the head with regards to how I feel anyway. As I said I am not a big fan of Bonds, mainly because of what I perceive as a really bad attitude. I didn't like him much in Pittsburgh either. But I definately appreciate how unbelievable the things he is doing are. It truely is incredible and I marvel at it on a regular basis. I agree with you that whether you like the guy or not you have to appreciate how good the guy is and what he is doing. You can put me in that group of people that is not a big fan of his but amd enjoying watching this guy play.

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Posted By: Jason

GLen's comment was not very well thought out. Juice doesn't hit the dongs, SKILL cannot be enhanced.

Jason

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Posted By: Jason

Ho yea.......and Bond's ego couldn't hold a light to Cobb's. Cobb was a much bigger jerk.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The key to power is the equation f= ma. Force = mass x acceleration. If the bat is corked it reduces the mass of the bat more than the reduced weight increases the acceleration generated by the hitter. Just something I read in the papers by a physics professor when the whole Sosa shenanigan with the corked bat came to light.

If you really want to improve power, taper the bat to be shaped more with the weight concentrated at the barrel so that the weight concentrates in the area that is moving the most. One of the reasons for so many HRs nowadays is the bat design with thin handles and more weight forward.

Now, driving wire brads into the bat or putting in a metal rod, that would work...

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

You'd think I'd be able to tell the two of them apart!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Boy, this message is getting a lot of posts ! So, I might as well throw in my take on this subject.

Bonds sure is getting walked quite a bit. Although this yields an interesting statistic for him, it appears to me that Mr. Bonds is juggling plenty of data right now, and Im quite curious how it will all turn out.

Specifically, he recently entered the rarified group of .600 sluggers and is currently flirting with the possibility of becoming a lifetime .300 hitter. While from a statistics oriented perspective, these considerations are in play along with his quest for 700+ HR and his battle with the always successful Father Time.

I believe that it was Mantle who said that he regretted trading his .300 career BA in exchange for moving up in the 500 HR club. I wonder what trade offs, if any, will be made if Bonds career ever winds down.

It appears that Clemens almost threw in the towel a year (or more) too early. Fortunately he is now attaining the career Wins and K totals to which he clearly is entitled.

What will Bonds' actual achievements be once the dust finally settles, I wonder - and I hope that we will all get to see his career in its totality to compliment each view, each accomplishment, accusation, failure and milestone which we have enjoyed him putting together for us.

And can Sosa and others be even better?

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Posted By: Gary B.

Unless Sosa has a spurt of statistics in the next 4 years to rival what Bonds has done in the last 4 years, he'll never be considered a better player. If you look at his numbers, they just don't come close, although he does have some that are still very impressive. It all depends on his longevity. Sosa will be 36 this year, and most normal mortals have their numbers start to decline around that age. If he stays healthy and somewhat consistent, his home run total could be pretty darn impressive, but whether or not he'll catch Bonds by the time Bonds is done will all depend on his longevity and consistency - it's possible, but it will be difficult. There really aren't any players today who are putting up the kind of amazing numbers Barry is overall. Griffey could put up an impressive home run total by the time he's done if he stays healthy, but still catching Bonds would be a real tough go.

While others are putting up impressive home run totals, what about walks, intentional walks, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS, how few strikeouts he makes, his career stolen base totals, not to mention his 7 Gold Gloves and his 6 MVP awards (7 after this year unless he tanks in the 2nd half - unlikely) - Barry is way more than just home runs. Besides the superhuman home run total in 2001, he's never even hit 50 - he's just been consistent over his career, like Aaron was.

The only one playing I see with numbers that (if he stays consistent) could be truly legendary and comparable to Bonds are A-Rod's. His stats (some of them) are quite impressive, especially considering the guy will be only 29 later this month. Again, it all depends on his longevity, consistency and health. These late career spurts we've seen lately from Bonds, Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens (notice the others are pitchers) are definitely the exception. How many other hitters can you think of that did what Bonds is doing at his age? I mean, the guy is 39, just about to turn 40. Check out the stats for Aaron, Ruth, Mays & Williams - they were all really winding it down by the time they hit 40 (Williams being the most impressive at that age).

We really are witnessing one of the all time greats that comes along VERY rarely.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Gary,

You make my point exactly !

Bonds walks are hurting him.

He is no Henderson, McGraw nor even an Eddie Yost. And he is not trying to be. However, he has professed an interest in hitting more homeruns than Ruth.

That accomplishment will of course in no way make him a player of Ruthian proportions, but it is a stated goal of Bonds.

With Father Time (don't look back, ...) to recon with, each walk impairs Barry Bonds ability to achieve the 714 milestone. Although it appears certain that that level of homeruns is achievable within his playing days, I wonder whether he will have to sacrifice his .600 + .300 performances in order to achieve the total. Probably not. But does one then set his sights on Aaron? Certainly ! And then are the .600 + .300 in jeopardy?

And definately, Bonds is way more than homeruns. But homeruns remain the most visible yardstick in sports.

And do not sell Sosa short. He is also a player that can gain on ya. He is already ahead of Bonds HR/age pace and he has demonstrated the ability to average more than 60 HR/yr. for four consecutive years. Count 'em: 240+ HR in 4 years. Only one other has been able to do that - and it certainly isn't Bonds.

Have fun, thats what it is for,
Gil

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Posted By: jay behrens

Comparing the numbers of one player at a certain age to Bonds at the same age is very dangerous since Bonds is putting up Herculean numbers at an age when every other hitter in the history of game started to see his number tail off.

Jay

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Posted By: Gary B.

While I understand the importance of home runs in terms of glory and stature, the other stats he's produced to me (and I would imagine to many others on this board who are students of the history of the game) are at least as impressive.

Bonds catching Aaron in homers is VERY doable, and him catching Ruth is beyond doubt, barring major injury. The man has 681 home runs right now, and he's on pace to hit about 20 more this year. That would make him need just 14 more next year to beat Ruth. If he hits 40 next year (and given his numbers in the past 3 years, it's reasonable to assume he can, unless his age has his skills deteriorate very suddenly - it's possible, but he's done so much at the age he's at now, it's hard to imagine that happening). If that happens, that brings him to 741 at the end of next year, and it ain't that far to Aaron after that, even if his skills start to wane at that point. I believe he's got a contract through 2006, so he's definitely planning on playing (and come on, who would quit now with what he's doing?) at least two more years. At the rate he's going, I would be very surprised if he didn't beat Aaron, and shocked if he didn't beat Ruth.

An while your point about Sosa is well taken, his numbers have declined a bit since his amazing 4 year surge. If he can get back to that level, God bless him, but it would be an amazing accomplishment to do so.

And how about runs? Bonds is on pace for 60 more this year. If he got 90 more each of the next two years (and that would be a good bit below his average the last 3-4 years), that would put him past Cobb, but not past Henderson. Still - amazingly impressive.

I have my doubts about him reaching 3,000 hits though, especially if he only plays two more years beyond this one - it will be close. He might not make a .300 lifetime average either, but is that so important? Sure, it would be nice, but we'll have to wait and see. Basically, this guy is going to have amassed some seriously impressive stats when this is all over. Am I saying this guy is Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb? Certainly not, but he's still WAY up there with the best of the best.

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Posted By: Gary B.

Earlier I said that as far as I could see, in many peoples minds Bonds has already been tried and convicted. Judging by some of the posts in the Cobb vs. Ruth thread (calling him "The Juiceman," etc.), I was right. Some people just assume that's the case just because of the accusation, and for those people it seems his numbers will be forever tainted. I tried to plead his case, but when someone has already tried and convicted someone, it's kind of hard for them to even conceive of it another way. It's like trying to turn a Republican into a Democrat or vice versa. Oh, well. To me he will always be one of the all time greats, and unless irrefutable proof of him using steroids comes to light, his numbers will remain glorious and untainted. Please, no offense to anyone on this board who disagrees, just stating my point of view...

Peace,
Gary

P.S. - He went 3 for 5 last night (with NO home runs and NO walks) - he's back up to batting .360 now. His on-base percentage is SO high, that going 3 for 5 with no walks, acutally slightly LOWERS his OBP. Not bad for a guy who's going to turn 40 in a couple of weeks.

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Posted By: Gary B.

Barry just tied his own single-season intentional walks record - he's going to put that mark out into the stratosphere by the end of this season - and the man who gave him his 68th intentional pass? Randy Johnson.