OT: Sabathia has been traded!! :(

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Posted By: Jimi

Long time Indians fan here just grumbling. Congrats to Milwaukee fans for their rent-a-player until the Yankees pick him up in the off season.

Hate to see him go as he is exciting to watch. Farewell....

Jimi

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Posted By: Matt

with the Indians season in the toilet, it had to happen; absolutely no reason for us to keep him around when prospects could be had.

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Posted By: MikeU

I envision him in a Tigers uniform next year.

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Posted By: Brian

LaPorta is the real deal.

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Posted By: pas

still irked he won the cy young over beckett last year
IMHO he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team

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Posted By: Bilko G

Great trade for the Indians in the long run.

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Posted By: Jimi

I sure hope so. I hear nothing but great things about LaPorta, but still I hate making these minor league trades because you just never know how they'll end up in the bigs.

Jimi

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Posted By: MikeU

"with the Indians season in the toilet, it had to happen; absolutely no reason for us to keep him around when prospects could be had."

I am not sure I agree with dumping a real irreplaceable star for prospects to rebuild in this case. Sabathia is barely above prospect age himself. At 27 and 106 Wins, he is already 35 on the active wins list. Nobody his age or younger is above him. Even going three years his senior (30), there are only (3) people with more wins: Mark Buehrle(29) with 113, Barry Zito (30) with 117 and Roy Oswalt(30) with 119.

Below him the closest at his age(27) is Carlos Zambrano with 91, Jake Peavy with 82 and Brett Myers with 62.

For age 28 (one year senior), the closest is Jon Garland with 99, Josh Beckett with 85 and Chien-Ming Wang with 54.

For age 29 (two years senior), the closest is Johan Santana with 100, John Lackey with 85 and Ben Sheets with 83.

For age 26 (one year junior), the closest is Dontrelle Willis with 68 and Oliver Perez with 51. No other 26 year olds are in the top 150. CC had 100 Wins at age 26.

For age 25 (two years junior), the closest is Jeremy Bonderman with 59 and Ervin Santana with 44. No other 25 year olds are in the top 150. CC had 81 Wins at age 25.

For age 24 (three years junior), the closest is Scott Kazmir with 44. No other 24 year olds are in the top 150. CC had 69 Wins at age 24.

CC is special. Not sure trading away was a good idea. They were a win away from the series last year.

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Posted By: Matt

MikeU - are you suggesting we were getting back to the series this season? I'm pretty sure we're done. You do know he is a FA after this season, right?

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Posted By: David G

As a lifelong and long suffering Brewers fan - I am very excited about our new "rent a player". After all, the Brewers have not often been in a position where it made sense to rent anyone!!

La Porta is the real deal with a bat - his defense is horrific. A good fit in the AL

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Our beloved Yankees have told season ticket holders that the Championship
Field Box seat prices will triple next year at the new Yankee Stadium

Whilst the new seats will include free food (not liquor or beer), those fans who
will be renewing are only interested in the Yankees fielding a better team

With Mr. Hank S. finding some unexpected resistance from
many long-time and important season ticket holders, we're quite sure that Mr. Sabathia
will grace the new house that Papa George and Mayor Mike built.

Of course, only time will tell.

We're certainly apprehensive about the Yankees playoff chances for 2008


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Matt

When Bruce goes to a game at Yankee stadium, how many seats does he sit in?

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Posted By: DMcD

"When Bruce goes to a game at Yankee stadium, how many seats does he sit in?"

A plethora.

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Posted By: Fred C

Maybe the change of scenery will do him good. Look at how many runs the Tribe has scored for him this year. He almost has to pitch a shutout to win. He'll have a great second half if the Brewers just score a couple of runs for him.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I agree it was a bad move for the Tribe. One win from the World Series last year, and now they trade a 27 year old #1 starter. Casey Blake will go next, or Paul Byrd. Personally, I think Sabathia and Carmona 1-2 would have served the Indians well for the next handful of years. As a Twins fan, I'm glad to see him leave the division and league--we always had trouble hitting him. No tears here

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Posted By: Matt

"I agree it was a bad move for the Tribe."

I'm missing something; are you thinking we would compete this season? What else did we lose?

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Posted By: MikeU

"MikeU - are you suggesting we were getting back to the series this season? I'm pretty sure we're done. You do know he is a FA after this season, right?"

No, but I do think this season is a bit of an outlier season. Maybe similar to the White Sox they year after they won the Series. If Sabathia made it clear to the Indians that he would not sign, then the trade makes sense. If this was not the case, I think it was a very poor move.

The Indians loss, hopefully will the the Tigers gain next season.

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Posted By: Matt

I'm missing something here; if you agree that we are out of contention this season and you know he is a FA after this season, then how was this a bad deal?

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Posted By: Jimi

I would have loved to have seen him hang around in Cleveland...I think most Tribe fans would say the same. I think what Matt is saying is that the Tribe simply can't afford him. He had already turned down some $20+ million a year from the Tribe, so it wasn't going to happen. Better to get something for him now rather than NOTHING at the end of the year when he's a free agent..........as much as it hurts.


Cleveland still does have some good pitching with Lee (probably starting the All-Star game), Carmona, Westbrook (next year when off of DL), Laffey, and Miller (who they are anxiously waiting for his debut). They are a couple more live arms in the minors as well. Picking up this good hitting minor leaguer will hopefully fill that power hitting outfield spot we are desperately needing. If he can't field, I'm sure Hafner's days are numbered in Cleveland anyway so a DH will be needed.

Jimi

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Posted By: MikeU

"I'm missing something here; if you agree that we are out of contention this season and you know he is a FA after this season, then how was this a bad deal?"

The season is shot, but you do not give up. Did you kick the wife out of the house after your first fight? Did you kick your kid out of the house after his/her first misdeed? Like I said, if he told the organization he would not sign, then good move. If this were true, if I were an Indians fan, I would be concerned why this would be the case. If he was willing to resign, then you do everything to keep him. He probably has another 13 solid years ahead of him, this year should be an outlier year.

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Posted By: quan

mike the point here is when he hits free agency, cleveland will not be able to resign him...so do you want another 15 meaningless starts this year from CC or at least 5-6 years of a stud prospect to rebuild with grady et al?

oh yea in order for cleveland to throw in the towel CC must've told them he will test the fa market and would not offer any hometown discount...

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Posted By: Matt

quan - exactly right; the team knows it isn't willing to spend enough to win any FA bidding war; if CC wanted to take a discount to stay, he would have signed the offer in the off-season.

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Posted By: MikeU

"quan - exactly right; the team knows it isn't willing to spend enough to win any FA bidding war; if CC wanted to take a discount to stay, he would have signed the offer in the off-season."

I was not aware of the off-season offer and rejection and thus we change our opinion to "good move."

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Posted By: Fred C

CC turned down $72M over 4 years.

He's probably looking to for a deal worth over $100M.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

but as I understand it, he turned down that $72M in Spring training, coming off a Cy Young Award and playing for a team on the come. Now he's on a so-so team and not in line for another Cy Young--he's 6-8. His expectations and market value might come down. So too the team could cut salary elsewhere to up their ante if necessary--again, he's an ace and an innings eater, not hurt or inconsistent like Farmona, Lee and Westbrook. Other than Sizemore, who else ar eyou building that team around?

Finally, why not shop him harder--what's your hurry? Now you've just obtained another slow, poor if not out of position defensive player, and an unprovn one at that. Aren't Hafner, martinez and Garko enough?

Hey, not my team, not my fight. Just my two cents.

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

I didn't quite understand the trade either. I understand deciding that he won't resign and then shopping him around....But I think I might want to wait until I can get two top minor leaguers. They got one and he's certainly a top prospect, but I think that in three weeks they could have gotten two.

However, its always easy to second guess. If its the guy they really wanted then the second top prospect doesn't matter. And in two weeks CC might dislocate his shoulder and be done for the season meaning no prospects.

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Posted By: Matt

Not knowing what else was offered, we can't really criticize Shapiro for taking this deal; I hope he took the best prospects that were offered. I just didn't understand the argument that we should have kept CC.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Think of it - out of the $100M plus contracts for pitchers, how many have worked out?

Hampton - total bust
Kevin Brown - not far behind
Zito - total bust
Santana - too early to tell, but he certainly hasn't performed to expectations this year

Position players have done better on the huge contracts - while it's hard to say any team got "great value", ARod, Manny, Jeter, and Pujols have not been disappointments, even if there are some stinkers mixed in (Griffey, Giambi primarily).

Does anyone really think Sabathia is going to hold up and be injury free at his size and shape? The Indians made the right offer - 4 years - at least if he broke down they would just be buried for a few years instead of nearly a decade.

There's something to be said for having reliable 200+ IP 4.25ERA pitchers, and putting your money in offense to score 5+ runs/game.

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Posted By: Aaron Patton

Matt,

There isn't an argument.

Most of these folks have no idea how bad things have been for us this year.

CC was going to test the market, and it was prudent of Mark, et. al to recoup players rather than draft picks.

I am relieved he wont be wearing a Sox (be it Chicago or Boston) or NYY jersey this year.

Ah, happy monday; to be a Cleveland/Ohio sports fan. Sigh.

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Posted By: Matt

Aaron - well said.

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Posted By: Jimi

Perhaps an article you haven't read yet -

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/SPORTS/807070323/-1/&source=nletter-news

Jimi

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Posted By: Brock G.

Scary deal for the Indians if you ask me. LaPorta has a good stick but cant play defense. Not easy for guys that just hit. Usually a short leash on guys like that when they make it to the big team due to the fact that if they are not hitting well in the DH spot they basically worthless to the team. A situation that usually leads to a return to AAA. Five tool guys are the safe bet but the Indians are putting alot on a two-tool guy.

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Posted By: Aaron Patton

Brock,

See: Travis Hafner.

Shapiro dealt for Hafner knowing full-well he was a liability in the field.

Also, I wonder if this is not an indictment of Hafner's future going forward. Shapiro may feel Hafner's best days are probably behind him.

Best,

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Posted By: Bob

Jimi and Bryan- Don't despair! We gave up Santana for a bundle of prospects. Two youngsters, Carlos Gomez moved in to the starting lineup in centerfield and we got Alexi Casilla as a throw in from the Angels and they are the most feared 1-2 hitters in baseball and defensive gems. Meanwhile Santana is 7-7 albeit with a great ERA but his fastball has dropped 4 mph and most importantly, it opened up a couple of slots in the starting rotation for two young pitchers, Nick Blackburne and Glen Perkins who have been very, very good. (Carlos Silva left via free agency and we got nothing in return, that was the other slot). The Twins are now one of the youngest teams in baseball, competing for both the AL Central title and the wildcard and they are the most exciting team in baseball even though the media heads haven't figured it out yet. Limited power but speed, speed and more speed with Gomez, Casilla and rookie Denard Span. The minor league teams were stocked with 3 pitchers who came in the Santana trade (along with Gomez). This is what you have to do when you don't spend stupid money for free agents- you draft wisely, develop your prospects and trade older players while they still have value. The Twins learned a costly lesson with Tori Hunter and weren't going to do it again with Santana.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

"They are the most feared 1-2 hitters in baseball"

Did you mean least feared?--Carlos Gomez who is hitting I think in the 260s with an OBP of about 300 and Alexi Casilla who I believe has a career average before this year that is below the Mendoza line but is hitting .320 with little power in less than 200 at-bats?

Hmmm, I wonder if pitchers say oh my gosh--I have to face Gomez and Casilla in the 1-2 slots tonight. Hanley Ramirez, Jeremy Hermida is a piece of cake relative to these two let alone Damon/Jeter or Soriano/Theriot.

In all seriousness, I would consider this an area of weakness for the Twins whose real strength is its strong hitters such as Mauer, Mourneau, Young, Kubel and Cuddyer.

And to think they couldn't even find a spot for Doug Deeds.

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Posted By: Fred C

"There's something to be said for having reliable 200+ IP 4.25ERA pitchers, and putting your money in offense to score 5+ runs/game."

I guess there is a good arguement for throwing "stoopid" money at position players rather than pitchers.

I remember when starters were going 300+ innings with much lower ERAs. Ok, now someone can say that was a different era and a different brand of baseball. Yes, I guess they throw a little harder these days because they concentrate on their mechanics a little more but I'm having a hard time thinking Nolan Ryan didn't throw hard all the time.

All in all the tribe basically deserted CC this year offensively. It' just one of those abberations that occurs. Some pitchers get all the run support they need, others (just bad luck) get the drought when their day in the rotation comes up. What's done is done, the Tribe has officially given up hope for this year. I only wish CC would have went to the Red Sox. He'd push that team over the edge and he would have helped put up another flag for them.

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Posted By: Bob

Did you mean least feared?--Carlos Gomez who is hitting I think in the 260s with an OBP of about 300 and Alexi Casilla who I believe has a career average before this year that is below the Mendoza line but is hitting .320 with little power in less than 200 at-bats?

Yes Jim, you're right as ever, I'm wrong as is the baseball crew at ESPN. Just because you don't watch the Twins on tv you don't have to display a sense of arrogance with a lack of knowledge. This is Casilla's first full year in the majors and I believe it is the same for Gomez as as I don't believe he was up the whole year with the Mets last year. The reason they are so dangerous is because of their great speed and ability to get on at any time. Witness Casilla laying down a 2 strike bunt for a hit tonight. They drive the pitchers crazy when they get on base, not only sealing bases but going from first to third constantly. BTW Gomez is hitting in the 270s after being around .290 earlier in the season. He is still hitting better than other centerfielders such as Tori Hunter, Jacoby Ellsbury and Melke Cabrera. If Casilla continues to hit .300 the rest of the year and knock in runs with clutch hits, he would be on pace to lead the AL second basemen in RBIs. So what if they don't hit home runs? Both are able to hit doubles and triples at any time.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Just because someone disagrees with you, you don't have to accuse me of arrogance and lack of knowledge. I watched Gomez come up through the minors--good defensive center fielder but if he ends the year above .255 batting average and an OBA of .290 I will be surprised. Casilla is a utility player. Its one of the weakest 1-2 batters in baseball in my opinion. Gomez would hit 9th on most teams--Casilla projects as a Ramon Santiago/Omar Infante type of player--reasonable utility player. On the other hand Mauer and Mourneau are legitimate stars. Young and Kubel may be heading that direction. Kubel was one of the best minor league hitters I ever saw and then he had a bad injury. I think he can still come back.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

Sabathia would look much better in a Cub uniform. Would look like the reincarnation of Lee Smith. Go Cubbis

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Posted By: paulstratton

Better get to the clubhouse early boys, with CC and Prince Fielder now on the same team there might not be any food left if you show up late.

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Posted By: Jimi

Well, there is some good news in Cleveland. Sizemore has just joined the Home Run Derby competition next week! I'm pretty pumped about that. Pretty sweet for a "lead off" hitter (and true Indians fans will get why I just put "lead off" hitter in quotes.) He's a very exciting player that would be getting tons of publicity if playing in NYC, but thank goodness he's in a Tribe uniform until at least 2011.

Jimi

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jimi, chances are Sizemore would not necessarily be getting tons of publicity if he were playing in NYC -- probably just bad publicity. He's having a decent year, about the same as Jason Giambi, who has hardly merited much mention in NY this season.