T206 Big 3

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Posted By: Adam

Congrats to Heritage, looks like they are the only place to find all of the T206 "Big 3" in a single auction:

WAGNER (beautiful back, LOL):

<a href="http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=9709&Lot_No=19032</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=9709&Lot_No=19032</a&gt;


PLANK (much harder to find this auction season compared to last auction season . . . I think Plank prices are going to start moving up quickly):


<a href="http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=9709&Lot_No=19027</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=9709&Lot_No=19027</a&gt;


MAGIE:

<a href="http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=9709&Lot_No=19021</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=9709&Lot_No=19021</a&gt;

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Posted By: Andrew

Have two Wagners ever "faced off" before at the same time in major auction houses before?

Andrew

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Posted By: peter ullman

i think i remember there being 2 wagners in a robert edwards auction a few years back...or maybe it was 2 planks?

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Posted By: Matt

They also have the rare Sojourner Truth CDV (in the baseball card section?)

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Posted By: dan mckee

The biggest is the Doyle NY Nat'l.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...as the three Magie cards in REA. The VG 3 is already up to $16,000 without juice. Pretty exciting.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Have you ever seen a Wagner with a....Sweet Cap 150, Fac. 30 NY....back ?

Check-out this Wagner, as it has this back....instead of the normal....Sweet Cap 150, Fac. 25 VA.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Here's an image of all three together:





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Posted By: T206Collector

...the Plank and Magie were submitted to SGC together, and may have come from the same collection (unless they were submitted by Heritage or a dealer). The Wagner is from a different SGC submission.

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Posted By: JimB

I don't remember REA ever having two Wagners in the same auction, but I do remember two Planks.
JimB

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Posted By: Adam

There were 3 Planks total up for auction last year if I remember -- the one that Paul got, an authentic one, and I think a PSA 1 that another board member bought.

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Posted By: mark

vcp indicates FIVE sales last year!
both mastro (psa auth & sgc 10) AND rea (psa 1 & sgc 30) EACH had TWO in their april, 2007 auctions...
also, scp (psa 2) sept, 2007

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Posted By: T206Collector

These four were up against each other within a two day period. That was why I felt relatively comfortable mortgaging my T206 card collection for a Plank -- if they were every going to seem "easy" to get, it was that weekend. I was just hoping that enough people would be distracted by the Saturday night ending REA Planks to dissuade people from bidding too high on the Carter Plank I was going after.


2007 REA Planks

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2007/138.html

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2007/146.html


2007 Mastro Planks

http://www.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=70940

http://www.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=70835



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Posted By: Scott B.

Just curious, do you regret getting your Carter Plank for $15k since you could have gotten the restored one for relatively the same price and re-sell it on ebay for $25k and pocketed $10k a yr after?

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Posted By: T206Collector

My view is that a year ago, the market put the Carter Plank slightly ahead of the restored Plank. With the sale of the restored Plank for $10K more this year, it is hard to say how much the Carter Plank would sell at auction this year. I won't hazard to guess $25K, but I will say that I have received (and rejected) offers well above what I paid for it. The restored Plank was essentially a fixed price sale with one bidder going over $20,800 all the way to triggering the reserve at $24,600.

I would also add that getting to talk with Lionel about his card and getting the letters from him about -- both featured on my website -- has been a lot of fun and made me appreciate the card that much more.

Finally, like I have said in other posts, I actually think the restored Plank has gotten a number of bids from people who intend to carry out a fraud in the future. I said before and will say again, I do not think we will see that card in that holder again any time soon. This may "artificially" raise the price of the restored Plank, in my opinion. In the end, however, I do recognize a card is worth what someone will pay for it.







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Posted By: Matt

One of the bigger dealers at the Ohio show today assured me that T206 prices were down 25% across the board (low/high grades, hofers, tough backs, etc.) in the last 3 months. Of course, he was trying to buy a PSA 4 Tolstoi Johnson from me at the time...

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Posted By: T206Collector

My feeling is that T206 were down at the end of 2007 and early 2008, but that they are picking up steam somewhat. I have been tracking SGC 60 commons and HOFers during this period and that has been my experience. I have also seen plenty of "V" shaped charts on VCP lately, supporting my theory.

But when it comes to Wagner, Plank and Magie -- or that sweet Nagy Cobb backed Cobb -- the prices are all on the rise, even just in early bidding. How high will the VG 3 Magie go in REA? I also think the Heritage PSA 3
Plank may top $50K.



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Posted By: boxingcardman

"One of the bigger dealers at the Ohio show today assured me that T206 prices were down 25% across the board (low/high grades, hofers, tough backs, etc.) in the last 3 months. Of course, he was trying to buy a PSA 4 Tolstoi Johnson from me at the time..."

He'd have assured you that the moon was made of green cheese if he thought he could get your card for less money. I hope you told him "then don't buy it" and walked away.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Matt

of course I did

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Posted By: Adam

I have been on a T206 buying spree over the past 2 or so months because prices have indeed been down. I do, however, think the down swing is over, as it is clear to me the prices are rising again (and I think will continue to rise in light of the 100 year anniversary next year . . . I know my view is a minority one, but I think I am still right).

As to the truly rare T206s (Wagner, Plank, Magie), I think we will be in a good position to evaluate where Wagner and Magie stand after the end of this auction season, but an evalaution on Plank may have to wait until we see more on the market, maybe next year. I think the 24k "authentic" on eBay was far over-priced, and the one Heritage has is too nice to be a good indication as to the overall market prices for Planks . . . we need some 2008 pricing on PSA 1s and 2s or SGC 10, 20, or 30s, and there may well not be any until next year. I also do not view the recent eBay sale of a Magie PSA 1 for "best offer" of 14.5k as a valid indicator of Magie pricing.

Edited to add: the best "deal" on T206s over the past few months has been PSA 3 HOFers. Take a look at PSA 2 pricing and then PSA 4 pricing to understand why. I don't mind sharing that info since I think I am done buying for a few months.

Edited to add link to 14.5k "best offer" Magie PSA 1:http://tinyurl.com/3t2c3f

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Posted By: Adam

And I'm not trying to "out" an auction, so please don't view this post that way, but am I the only one that recognizes the Magie PSA 1 currently in REA as having been in a different PSA holder (though same grade)? That artificially inflates the population reports, no?

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Posted By: cmoking

"I think the 24k "authentic" on eBay was far over-priced"

Looking at the bid history on the authentic Plank, I have doubts it was a true sale.

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Posted By: mark

king-
upon review of the bidding, you are absolutely correct!
that "winning" bid of $24,699 was ALSO the reserve...
no feedback was ever recorded...

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Posted By: Adam

This is some of the bidding history for the authentic Plank, what about this suggests it is not legit? Didn't the winning bidder just put in a high bid and then eBay bumped it up to whatever the reserve price was (so it would trigger the reserve) so the person would win it?

bxsportscards( 193) US $24,699.00 Mar-31-08 17:57:34 PDT



bxsportscards( 193) US $23,000.00 Mar-31-08 17:56:44 PDT



i***d( 88) US $20,890.00 Mar-31-08 12:10:35 PDT



y***l( 1404) US $18,100.00 Mar-31-08 13:46:57 PDT



y***l( 1404) US $17,600.00 Mar-31-08 13:46:24 PDT



y***l( 1404) US $17,200.00 Mar-31-08 08:26:12 PDT



w***t( 18) US $17,000.00 Mar-30-08 00:47:08 PDT



y***l( 1404) US $17,000.00 Mar-31-08 08:25:16 PDT



w***t( 18) US $16,900.00 Mar-30-08 00:46:36 PDT

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Posted By: Joseph Shirley

There were more bids on the Ebay Plank than will show up on the record. Remember all snipes that were outbid would not be placed. I had a snipe in at $22,500. It never showed up on the bidding history, because I was outbid before the snipe was to go in.

I have no reason to suspect that the sale was not legit at this time. It is still a bit early to expect feedback. Funds may not have cleared for shipping yet.

One last note, if I had won the card, it would have been tucked away in my collection. When the time came to sell, I would have sold it the way I bought it. I would never have tried to sell it as something it wasn't, just as the ebay seller did. Too assume that someone will try to cheat a buyer, is looking at the glass half empty. Yes it can and does happen, but there are just as many honest people as cheats (probably more). One could have said after the Mastro sale, the card would show up next without any qualifier. It did not happen.

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Posted By: Adam

Looks like it's the Magie sale that did not work out, as it recently got re-listed.

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Posted By: dan mckee

No Ted, I didn't know Wagner which is a portrait, could be on a 350 back. Then again, I don't have a Wagner at all to compare it to. Dan.

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Posted By: cmoking

Well, maybe it was legit after all then. If it is, I am shocked that 5 different individuals bid higher than the Mastro auction. That part doesn't seem to fit.

FWIW, if it was me interested in a T206 Plank (and I am), I'd throw out all the numbers from that auction for fear there is something fishy going on. That's just me, I'm not throwing out any accusations against the bidders or the seller, but that's just the way I'd use the information - which is to say that I wouldn't use it at all when factoring in my bid for future Planks.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

DAN McKEE

I found one in a Sept. 2000 Mastro Auction.....shown here....

The "Sweet Cap 150/30 NY" back is very RARE on the Wagner card....most all of the Wagner's are Sweet Cap 150, Factory 25 VA
and some are Piedmont 150, Factory 25 VA.

TED Z

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Posted By: dan mckee

oh 150 factory 30, sorry I misunderstood you. You got me Ted, I don't look that closely. It's a Wagner, the back could say Dan sucks and I would still love to own it!

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Posted By: John

Ted;

Got your email late, he can be found with factory 30 as well. Here is another but yes factory 25 is much more common.



Here I inverted the image to make it easier to see...

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Posted By: T206Collector

With this auction, the three in REA and the one in Heritage -- that makes 5 all available this month. Reminds me of the 4 Planks listed in REA and Mastro last year. How many Magies are out there? Does this make anyone else think the universe for Magies is a bit larger than previously thought?

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Visit http://www.t206collector.com this month as we count down 4 Magies, 2 Wagners and a Plank!

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Posted By: Marc S.

they tend to come up during the major auctions, or others that are just re-cycled back into the marketplace. There was perhaps 5-10 found in the past few years -- I think those are most prominently identified as the ones with scrapbook removal problems on the back, and slight discoloration areas on the front.

M

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Posted By: T206Collector

...pick the ebay Magie up on the BST for a bit of a bargain:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/376260/thread/1208173889/last-1208173889/T206+Magie+Error+Card+-+PSA+1



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Visit http://www.t206collector.com this month as we count down 4 Magies, 2 Wagners and a Plank!

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

DAN McKEE and JOHN W

I searched through 24 of my old Auction catalogs and scanned several Wagner's on the the Internet.
The only Wagner with an..SC 150 Factory 30..back that I found was the one I posted above (Mastro Auction, 9/2000).

The current Heritage auction Wagner is the 2nd one....and John, yours is only the 3rd one.

In my above stated search, I looked at 17 different T206 Wagner's, and here is the tally with respect to their backs.....

12....Sweet Caporal 150, Fac. 25 VA

2......Sweet Caporal 150, Fac. 30 NY

3......Piedmont 150, Fac. 25 VA.....includes the "Gretzky" Wagner


So, I pose this question....does this tougher back on Wagner (or Plank) cards warrant a somewhat higher value ?

Probably not....but, it's fun to speculate.


T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Matt

Ted - if the current value of the Wagners had to do with rarity, then the rarer backs might carry a premium. But, as we know, the value of the Wagner is simply because it is "the card" and therefore I can't see any additional value based on the different backs.

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Posted By: Adam

I am amazed at how quickly Heritage's Wagner shot up.

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Posted By: quan

adam nice avatar...i'm guessing you bought the memory lane's plank 20?

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Posted By: Bill Heitman

I would have sworn that I saw a T206 Plank graded a NM7 (Restored) by PSA just a few days ago on one of the threads. Could someone please post that picture again?

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Posted By: Adam

Positive feedback has now been left on the 25k "authentic" Plank sold recently on eBay, so looks like all was legit with that sale. Guess the current 50k price (with juice) on Heritage's Plank is sounding like not a bad deal now!

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Posted By: T206Collector

Last year there were four Planks selling at the same time. That had to influence the market. This year there are four Magies. Since I got one of those four Planks I recognize my inherent bias, but my opinion is last year was the last relatvely sane year to get in on the Plank market. And, similarly, I predict this is the last relatively sane year to pick up your Magie. The VG 3 is already well on its way, but the 1 and the AUT are still relative bargains.

I believe that where Wagner leads the way, Plank and Magie will ultimately follow. Though, historically, they used to be a lot closer even on a percentage basis.

Good luck to the bidders!


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Visit http://www.t206collector.com this month as we count down 4 Magies, 2 Wagners and a Plank!

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Posted By: Rob D.

Paul, you own a Plank?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

haha, Rob, you beat me to the punch...

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Posted By: T206Collector

...if I've been talking about my Plank too much.

I just want to be part of the dialogue regarding the REA and Heritage Auctions that end next week. I think they are very important to help determine the current interest in the T206 scarcities. 4 Magies, 2 Planks and a Wagner all in two days is pretty special.




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Visit http://www.t206collector.com this month as we count down 4 Magies, 2 Wagners and a Plank!

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Posted By: John

Rob and Mike..LOL


Yawn…this whole this was the right time to buy and now is not because it’s more expensive is really nothing more than self serving verbal therapy at its best. It may make the buyer feel better about his or her purchases but in the end all of these card prices are relative.

What is a relative good deal or price to some may be an astronomical price to others, and what may be an outrageous price to me may in fact be a bargain to some folks.

When it comes to the big 3 there have never been bargains or right times per say to buy these cards. At any given time during our hobby’s history these cards have carried a premium of some sort. True I long for the days of the first price guides we all do, who wouldn’t want to buy a Wagner for $25 and Cobbs for $5-10 but that goes for any collectible who wouldn’t go back and buy artwork , land etc.

Let’s face it I know of a few folks who bought Wagner’s for 25k and Doyle’s for 18k back in the day late 80’s early 90’s. I was a teenager in those days even if I had one of those cards offered to me then even at those prices it would be the same has having one offered to me today for 500k. Even old school collectors passed on Wagner’s for a few $100 bucks why? Because they remembered when they were $20, and they thought to themselves the same thing we do….”boy that’s a lot of money!”

The big 3 have never been cheap during each of their perspective times, it appears that way looking back today but in the end they have always been pricey, there has never been a deal on these cards! Perhaps in the future our kids will look at us and say…”Dad you had a chance to buy a Wagner in VGEX for 450k, were you out of your mind, do you know how much that card is worth today?”

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Posted By: T206Collector

...glad you could make it.

I was just reading the last few bars of your post and realize that's what I was trying to say. Thank you for saying it more eloquently than me.

Do you remember our discussion about the value of the Frankenplank and Carter's Plank last April before REA and Mastro? You seemed quite keen on discussing the market for Planks a year ago with me, but this year it makes you "yawn"? (I'd post some of that discussion here, with your permission. I understand the rule against posting personal e-mails without permission.)

I still find the discussion fascinating and hope to continue it here. If you'd rather sit this one out, I won't object.

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Posted By: John

Paul our discussion via email was brief and as such here’s the re-cap.

I mentioned via here I was going to make a run at one of the Planks last year as did you by selling all of your t206’s etc. we emailed each other and asked which one would each of us be going after. I in turn responded and said the psa 2 in REA and the AUTH restored in Mastro the very same card that sparked this thread and others etc.

You said you wanted the Carter card, and I in turn said it was way too rough for me. You then went on to say the auth card was very nice and tempting, but you said it would drive you nuts because you would always be looking for where it was restored etc. Then you emailed me back and asked for an educated guess of what I thought they would go for, I made my guesses and you made yours. Then your card and my card went a bit higher than expected, you then emailed back and said guess we were both wrong etc. We then sadly parted ways happy that neither of us would be bidding each other up etc. Little did I know at the time you would go onto such T206 greatness, owning Carter’s Plank and a website/blog.

It is interesting you bring this email discussion up now I was talking with Mike about this not long ago, you’ve changed your tune a bit since we last talked, you went from tempting to downright irresponsible for anyone to buy the Auth Plank my how times change.

Does that about wrap up our conversation Paul??

Yes Paul at one time we briefly discussed Plank cards via email, I’ve also talked about hot chicks with Mike Sarno via email, but if Sarno posted the same chick pictures and talked about this one time at band camp each and every time we talked about hot girls I would turn gay, catch my drift?

Frankenplank was the name I gave the card I even did a funny picture...I'm not having my names taken like Bill Heitman's I'll sue! LOL




Lichtman I’ll be needing representation again same flat fee as usual two Cobb cards per hour?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yes--same as last time--but I'm not taking any more of those beaters you tried to pass off even if they do have a "Wonka Collection" provenance on the flips!

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Posted By: Adam

My Plank just arrived via FedEx this morning, so I am now officially in your club Paul --




ps- Heritage Plank now at 53k w/ juice

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Posted By: Rob D.

Nice pick-up, Adam.

Keep us posted if you launch a new Web site.