Erasing pencil from the back of a postcard. Will it grade A?

[Lucas00]

I have a postcard that someone wrote a number on the back of. I wouldn't mind if the entire back was filled out with a story and all. But to just have a little number written vertically on a horizontal post card is very annoying to me. I want to send it to sgc but don't want to have the number live another day. So my question is, if I do so will they consider that altered? Can you even tell if a small somewhat faded mark has been erased on a postcard back?
Any tips or tricks are greatly appreciated.

[Gorditadogg]

If you are going down that road you might try contacting Brent Huigens at PWCC.

https://www.cardlines.com/pwcc-new-s...viewed-by-psa/

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[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

If you are going down that road you might try contacting Brent Huigens at PWCC.

https://www.cardlines.com/pwcc-new-s...viewed-by-psa/

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Not sure what this is implying? Clearly I'm not attempting to scam or cheat anything or anybody. The post card will Never be for sale. This is purely for my own sake and sanity.

That said, people writing on postcards surely also erased marks or numbers when originally owned. Say they got an extra as a gift for themselves and did a math problem on the back and erased it after. Would it grade authentic or get a number?

What dictates post card alterations? Time? I'm the owner and removing an annoying mark on something that has the purpose of being written and erased on. Will that be held against me? How is that different from the guy who did it 75 years ago that just got his back as a 5?

[kimo75]

It depends on how much is still visible. I’ve had a few Kahn’s cards that had the years listed on back with light pencil come back with grades once erased.

[Smarti5051]

I am not knowledgeable enough in TPG to answer your question, but I too was taken aback by the insinuation that your question is akin to "altering" cards. In my view, "altering" a card is taking an action to change the nature of the cards natural state (ie trimming, recoloring, bleaching, etc.). Sort of like what a plastic surgeon would do to change one's "defects" or "aging." There is nothing "wrong" with the natural state, but somebody believes they can look "better" by taking superficial actions. By contrast, wiping off fingerprints, trying to erase stray marks, or using some sort of goo remover to remove something foreign on a card is not altering its natural state. I look at this more like taking a shower and washing the dirt off your body, or using a match to remove a tick from your skin. The body does not naturally have dirt of bugs on it, so it would be natural to remove those things. In the actual case at hand, the writing on the postcard is not "natural" to the card, it is the result of a human intervention (like a fingerprint on a shiny chrome card). I do not see it as an affront to the hobby to try and gently remove such a blemish to return the card to its natural state. I suppose this is walking a pretty fine line, but I think if you are doing what a normal person would do to "clean" your stuff, then I think it is reasonable. If you are doing what a surgeon would do, using years of training and specialized methods and equipment to do something a normal collector could or would not normally do to their stuff to alter the natural state of the card, then it is out of bounds.

[Exhibitman]

PC dealers often write the price in faint pencil on the card back. Drives me crazy too. Removing that isn't doctoring any more than soaking a card off an album page. If the pencil did not etch a groove into the paper it will erase cleanly. Use an Artgum eraser to avoid tearing off the top paper layer and work carefully and slowly with minimal pressure.

[jayshum]

I thought if there was writing on a card, PSA would give a numeric grade with a MK qualifier, but if the writing was erased, then the grade would be Authentic Altered.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Smarti5051

I am not knowledgeable enough in TPG to answer your question, but I too was taken aback by the insinuation that your question is akin to "altering" cards. In my view, "altering" a card is taking an action to change the nature of the cards natural state (ie trimming, recoloring, bleaching, etc.). Sort of like what a plastic surgeon would do to change one's "defects" or "aging." There is nothing "wrong" with the natural state, but somebody believes they can look "better" by taking superficial actions. By contrast, wiping off fingerprints, trying to erase stray marks, or using some sort of goo remover to remove something foreign on a card is not altering its natural state. I look at this more like taking a shower and washing the dirt off your body, or using a match to remove a tick from your skin. The body does not naturally have dirt of bugs on it, so it would be natural to remove those things. In the actual case at hand, the writing on the postcard is not "natural" to the card, it is the result of a human intervention (like a fingerprint on a shiny chrome card). I do not see it as an affront to the hobby to try and gently remove such a blemish to return the card to its natural state. I suppose this is walking a pretty fine line, but I think if you are doing what a normal person would do to "clean" your stuff, then I think it is reasonable. If you are doing what a surgeon would do, using years of training and specialized methods and equipment to do something a normal collector could or would not normally do to their stuff to alter the natural state of the card, then it is out of bounds.

These are my thoughts exactly! Well said.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

PC dealers often write the price in faint pencil on the card back. Drives me crazy too. Removing that isn't doctoring any more than soaking a card off an album page. If the pencil did not etch a groove into the paper it will erase cleanly. Use an Artgum eraser to avoid tearing off the top paper layer and work carefully and slowly with minimal pressure.

Looking at the number this seems to be exactly what you’ve said. Thank you for the insight and tip, it has helped me greatly.

[BobC]

This is one of those grey areas that you'll find two definite camps on. Many feel erasing pencil marks is no big deal, as most have already posted. But there are others that feel that once a card is written on that it is now devalued, and that going back to then erase that mark is an even worse offense in that you have not only caused an abrasion to the surface of the card, but now you have purposely and intentionally tried to hide what you have done by using a special eraser and rubbing as lightly as possible so no one can easily detect the erasure. If erasing a pencil mark is no big deal, why are people okay with it so careful in trying to remove them then? Regardless of how lightly someone rubs, they are causing an abrasion to, and altering the surface of, a card.

And then those others may also ask if this isn't the same thing that pisses a lot of people off about card doctors, and how they work to get cards past TPGs and graded and slabbed. A large part of the hobby community appears to feel that if a card is worked on by a card doctor, and then gets through a TPG review without that work being detected, it is good to go after that, despite what others may think or say. That is why a lot of people shake their heads in disbelief when they listen to those who complain about card doctors, but then say they have no problem erasing something from a card. It can come across as highly hypocritical to many people.

Some people posted about erasing pencil marks as okay since it is merely returning a card to its original, natural state. So how is that much different than someone removing creases from a card? You aren't adding or taking anything away from the card in it's natural state. You're merely slightly putting the surface of the card back to where it originally was, which is exactly what you're doing by erasing a pencil mark. Yet the one practice is much more heavily despised as card doctoring than the other, despite the result pretty much being the same, returning the card to its original state.

And there are some that will say they may erase a pencil mark on a card solely for their own personal satisfaction and tastes, and don't do so to try and fool potential customers, and/or never plan on selling their cards anyway. But we all know things rarely go completely as planned, and for whatever reason, someone may suddenly find themselves having to sell cards they've erased pencil marks on. So, do they disclose to the potential buyers that there are erasures on the card? Or what if they decide to get the card graded first, so they can make as much on it as possible Are they going to be sure to tell the TPG they erased something from on the card so the grade properly reflects that, or are they going to say nothing and hope they rubbed lightly enough that the TPG doesn't detect any erasure marks, and not downgrade the card accordingly? And even if the person doesn't end up selling their erased cards, aren't any of us living forever. So when that person's family maybe goes to sell off the deceased's cards, did the secret of the erased pencil mark(s) die with them? And in either case, is this fair to the collector(s) who end up purchasing the erased card(s)? What if unlike the former owner, who had no problem with erasing marks/writing on their cards, the new owner(s) absolutely detests that practice and would want nothing to do with the erased card(s) purchased had that been disclosed and made known to them?

If you are someone who approves of erasing pencil marks, would your opinion be something like it is no big deal that the new owner of the card(s) doesn't realize they had things erased on them, because no one can tell what was done, so it is okay. And if so, how can you possibly have any complaints about doctored and altered cards that get past TPGs undetected, and into numbered slabs? See the potential conflict/conundrum? I'll bet there are a lot of people that have no problem in erasing pencil marks on cards that then turn around and bitch and moan about card doctors getting their undetectable altered cards into numerically graded TPG holders. It is truly amazing how hypocritical some people can turn out to be.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

PC dealers often write the price in faint pencil on the card back. Drives me crazy too. Removing that isn't doctoring any more than soaking a card off an album page. If the pencil did not etch a groove into the paper it will erase cleanly. Use an Artgum eraser to avoid tearing off the top paper layer and work carefully and slowly with minimal pressure.

Call me a hypocrite, but I agree with this, and I don't think I need to defend my anti-alteration credentials. If you can't see the difference between this and removing a crease, I can't explain it to you.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Call me a hypocrite, but I agree with this, and I don't think I need to defend my anti-alteration credentials. If you can't see the difference between this and removing a crease, I can't explain it to you.

Brent's attitude is if you can't tell an alteration has been done then it is okay. I don't think many people here agree with that but it seems most have a list of minor alterations that are no big deal.

Everyone has a line they draw between what is acceptable and what is not. Once you draw that line it would be helpful to be able to articulate why you put it where you did.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Brent's attitude is if you can't tell an alteration has been done then it is okay. I don't think many people here agree with that but it seems most have a list of minor alterations that are no big deal.

Everyone has a line they draw between what is acceptable and what is not. Once you draw that line it would be helpful to be able to articulate why you put it where you did.

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That wouldn't be my rationale. I completely disagree with that, and question the premise really in most situations he is referring to. My rationale would be that a light pencil mark is no big deal to start with and from what I understand can be removed with an art eraser without affecting anything about the paper. Not much different from flicking something off that got stuck to a card.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by BobC

This is one of those grey areas that you'll find two definite camps on. Many feel erasing pencil marks is no big deal, as most have already posted. But there are others that feel that once a card is written on that it is now devalued, and that going back to then erase that mark is an even worse offense in that you have not only caused an abrasion to the surface of the card, but now you have purposely and intentionally tried to hide what you have done by using a special eraser and rubbing as lightly as possible so no one can easily detect the erasure. If erasing a pencil mark is no big deal, why are people okay with it so careful in trying to remove them then? Regardless of how lightly someone rubs, they are causing an abrasion to, and altering the surface of, a card.

And then those others may also ask if this isn't the same thing that pisses a lot of people off about card doctors, and how they work to get cards past TPGs and graded and slabbed. A large part of the hobby community appears to feel that if a card is worked on by a card doctor, and then gets through a TPG review without that work being detected, it is good to go after that, despite what others may think or say. That is why a lot of people shake their heads in disbelief when they listen to those who complain about card doctors, but then say they have no problem erasing something from a card. It can come across as highly hypocritical to many people.

Some people posted about erasing pencil marks as okay since it is merely returning a card to its original, natural state. So how is that much different than someone removing creases from a card? You aren't adding or taking anything away from the card in it's natural state. You're merely slightly putting the surface of the card back to where it originally was, which is exactly what you're doing by erasing a pencil mark. Yet the one practice is much more heavily despised as card doctoring than the other, despite the result pretty much being the same, returning the card to its original state.

And there are some that will say they may erase a pencil mark on a card solely for their own personal satisfaction and tastes, and don't do so to try and fool potential customers, and/or never plan on selling their cards anyway. But we all know things rarely go completely as planned, and for whatever reason, someone may suddenly find themselves having to sell cards they've erased pencil marks on. So, do they disclose to the potential buyers that there are erasures on the card? Or what if they decide to get the card graded first, so they can make as much on it as possible Are they going to be sure to tell the TPG they erased something from on the card so the grade properly reflects that, or are they going to say nothing and hope they rubbed lightly enough that the TPG doesn't detect any erasure marks, and not downgrade the card accordingly? And even if the person doesn't end up selling their erased cards, aren't any of us living forever. So when that person's family maybe goes to sell off the deceased's cards, did the secret of the erased pencil mark(s) die with them? And in either case, is this fair to the collector(s) who end up purchasing the erased card(s)? What if unlike the former owner, who had no problem with erasing marks/writing on their cards, the new owner(s) absolutely detests that practice and would want nothing to do with the erased card(s) purchased had that been disclosed and made known to them?

If you are someone who approves of erasing pencil marks, would your opinion be something like it is no big deal that the new owner of the card(s) doesn't realize they had things erased on them, because no one can tell what was done, so it is okay. And if so, how can you possibly have any complaints about doctored and altered cards that get past TPGs undetected, and into numbered slabs? See the potential conflict/conundrum? I'll bet there are a lot of people that have no problem in erasing pencil marks on cards that then turn around and bitch and moan about card doctors getting their undetectable altered cards into numerically graded TPG holders. It is truly amazing how hypocritical some people can turn out to be.

Bob, I understand this point of view and agree with it to an extent. However I feel this is quite a unique circumstance. As I said in my first reply, people have done this on their own post cards for as long as post cards and erasers have existed. It's actually meant to be done to some extent. People make mistakes and erase them when writing. So I would not classify erasing as altering the surface. Obviously if the back is filled out with a message and address etc then no, erasing it all would not be right.

Creasing a trading card and pressing out the crease or recoloring a faded card actually alters that cards appearance and structure and is not meant to be done. Unlike a post card back a regular card isn't meant to be written on.

If somebody offered me a post card for sale that graded a 5 and let me know they erased a stray pencil line or randomly placed number/price I would not call that an alteration In any sense of the word. I personally would call it fixing the post card rather than altering it.
I also don't know of anybody that would turn down purchasing one if told that.

I would venture a bet and say there are listings on eBay of sgc graded post cards with clear signs of erasing. Whether done by the original person or somebody later on that have a number Grade. (Referencing sgc Because that's who I plan to use)

Edit: I looked, there are many that are far far worse. All with number grades.

I think my original thoughts are correct. Something meant to be written and erased on cannot be considered altered or even authentic for that matter if written or erased on.

[Exhibitman]

Bob, Peter, I will explain the difference.

Creases are not "removable:, not really. Card stock is a series of small fibers from the source material (usually wood pulp) that are mechanically fixed into a specific order with the use of a solvent (like water) and pressure/heat. Typically by being pulverized in the solvent then extruded and flattened with some sort of pressure device (a press, a machine, etc.). When I learned to make custom cotton rag paper in art class we pulverized cotton in a blender with water, spread it on a screen, then pressed it between two boards, sometimes by running over the board with a car. and then leaving it under pressure with clamps until dry. When a card is creased the fibers are physically disrupted. They will never be the same unless you pulp the card and start over. When you spoon a crease all you are doing is camouflaging the damage. When you soak a light crease out of a card you have flattened the voids in the crease with the soak and pressure but you haven't actually realigned the fibers to the same state as the original manufacture. That is why creases can recur in holders: the weak spot in the cardboard eventually moves out of the new alignment.

Unlike a crease, a removal of foreign matter, properly performed, is undetectable. A hack like the late Dick Towle bombards the card with solvents, often wrecking the cardboard itself in the process; that's not what I mean. A good conservator can remove all sorts of stuff with techniques that do not damage the item. Cleaning artwork is a mainstay of museum conservation. The HOF conserves its holdings. There are limits to what you can do, of course. Taking the OP for example, a light pencil mark that doesn't cut into the card itself can be erased with a non-abrasive eraser (an Artgum) that will remove the mark without eroding the paper. I've been using them for years to remove unfortunate crap like PC dealer marks. The same is true of wax stains on the front of a postwar card all of which have light coats of shellac (a polymer) on them. A soft nylon rag like the ones for cleaning glasses, can be used to wipe away wax stains, often without a trace because the wax sticks but doesn't penetrate the polymer. Doesn't always work. I tried to remove wax from a 1971 Topps basketball card the other day but some of it had gotten through the shellac. I've also gotten flagged by a TPG for erasing pencil that had cut into the cardboard. Don't care, it still looks better than having some modern dealer mark on it. I'd never erase vintage writing from a PC, though: to me, that is one of the more charming elements of a vintage PC. I got a Bill and Bob Aaron the other day with a 1956 postmark and writing on it. Love it.

Some stuff simply cannot be removed, like some glues, without wrecking the item. All you can really do there is mechanically remove as much of the crud as possible. This CDV of HOFer John Morrissey had a partial label pasted on its front, which I painstakingly removed with an exacto and Artgum.



The result looks a lot better but a clear layer of glue remains on the front.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Adam, I agreed with you, and continue to agree with you. The second part of my comment was addressed to Bob, sorry if that was not clear.

[Casey2296]

OP, I'm OCD about my cards as I assume you are to with the posted question. Erase the mark if it bothers you and submit with a minimum A grade.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Adam, I agreed with you, and continue to agree with you. The second part of my comment was addressed to Bob, sorry if that was not clear.