SGC and greed

[kmac32]

Wow,

Just got off the phone with SGC on a new order and they want $20 each to place my silks into a plastic insert prior to encapsulating them. 3 cards and $60 just to put them in a bag! I just sent in 5 silks in August that are in post grading and there was no such charge for those cards so why now? Greed is my opinion. $10 would not be an issue but $20 is excessive per card.

As I told the person over the phone who was very pushy to get my credit card as I was in the process of getting dressed, I am done with SGC after this submission. Said it and I mean it! The excuse of the August submission just slipping thorough was not good enough for me.

Have always liked SGC for their eye appeal but greed is not something I will tolerate. I agree with Leon in a previous post and feel that they are out of touch with reality. They keep asking more dollars and delivering a slower less quality product in my opinion. Nowhere in their literature have I found Silks listed as an upcharge by the way! Surprised that they didn’t try and back charge me for the August submission!

And yes, I stand by my opinion and my name is listed at the top per the rules

Kmac

[ullmandds]

How is this any different from PSA?

[Throttlesteer]

PSA would determine the value of the silks and hold them hostage if they thought they could pinch you for a few hundred dollars more.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

How is this any different from PSA?

You tell me! You could train a monkey to put a card in a plastic sleeve to be put into a slab.

[tiger8mush]

The bright side: The money you are saving on grading fees can be spent on more silks!

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

The bright side: The money you are saving on grading fees can be spent on more silks!

True! My grading is not about the grade, it is about how the card displays in my collection. It is also about protecting the card. Thought about it and they are probably doing the surcharge do to the value of the cards. The ones in August had no back and these did. Still does not justify their action in my opinion.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by kmac32

You tell me! You could train a monkey to put a card in a plastic sleeve to be put into a slab.

agreed...all TPGing is a crock...imho!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

agreed...all TPGing is a crock...imho!

I have hope for computer grading. It will take the favoritism and complete incompetence out of the process.

[kevinlenane]

Genamint is coming soon - here is surface grading showing the subgrade and the weighted defects that contributed to that grade in a heat map

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Genamint is coming soon - here is surface grading showing the subgrade and the weighted defects that contributed to that grade in a heat map

Can Genamint tell the difference between a 1970s Cracker Jack reprint and a genuine 1914?

(sorry, not trying to derail Ken's thread)

[kevinlenane]

Yep - that surface heatmap is getting super granular in terms of what it sees as defects/anomalies from the perfect version of the card down to individual pixels. So as long as the image is taken on something equivalent to a iPhone 10 that is more than enough scope to detect print marks and other print and format differences that are indicators of a fugazi.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Genamint is coming soon - here is surface grading showing the subgrade and the weighted defects that contributed to that grade in a heat map

will genamint measure cards as well? Because there are issues with quite a large discrepancy in real factory cut sizes...see my e93/e95 thread. How ill this be done so as to differentiate trims vs actual factory cuts?

[kevinlenane]

The size issue is dealt with via a measured range and also via fingerprinting - once we ID a card, if it appears again and there is any pixel count different in size then it will come up as trimmed or altered. There will also be cases where the condition changes but that will look different to the machine...

[steve B]

Tying stuff to the Iphone is a deal breaker for me.

[kevinlenane]

Even if something gets pressed and trimmed the actual sizes and measurements from edges and borders wont be the same - to a machine it is readily identifiable.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Even if something gets pressed and trimmed the actual sizes and measurements from edges and borders wont be the same - to a machine it is readily identifiable.

So for example...take one of the E93's from original collection I have...trim it up to sharpen corners so that it's size is comparable to other e93's originally cut a little smaller...the machine will not know this?

[kmac32]

Just looked through my S74 silks and 2 were encapsulated without the plastic sleeve the SGC person was talking about. In my opinion, these 2 cards look fine and maybe even better than the others. Unless they can prove to me that this helps preserve the card better, there is absolutely no need to do this other than to take money from my bank account. Have emailed them about encapsulating without the additional plastic and reversing the charges. Give the customer appropriate options other than my way or the highway is my opinion. My opinion is that this is being totally bungled by SGC and this will be the last they see of my money.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by kmac32

You tell me! You could train a monkey to put a card in a plastic sleeve to be put into a slab.

But, if they actually used monkeys, SGC would also expect you to pony up for bananas!

[nolemmings]

Well, at least you can take comfort in knowing they can't grade S74 silks worth a damn in the first place

Originally Posted by kmac32

Just looked through my S74 silks and 2 were encapsulated without the plastic sleeve the SGC person was talking about. In my opinion, these 2 cards look fine and maybe even better than the others. Unless they can prove to me that this helps preserve the card better, there is absolutely no need to do this other than to take money from my bank account. Have emailed them about encapsulating without the additional plastic and reversing the charges. Give the customer appropriate options other than my way or the highway is my opinion. My opinion is that this is being totally bungled by SGC and this will be the last they see of my money.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Well, at least you can take comfort in knowing they can't grade S74 silks worth a damn in the first place

True. And they definitely need to work on their customer service.

[Mozzie22]

When I first looked into getting silks graded years ago only one company would even grade them and it wasn't SGC or PSA. It was these guys...

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

When I first looked into getting silks graded years ago only one company would even grade them and it wasn't SGC or PSA. It was these guys...

Truthfully, those look good. I may pull my entire SGC order from them over this and they will get nothing from me. Will give them 24 hours to get their act together or I am done. Definitely standing my ground.

[68Hawk]

The inner sleeve is to stop the thin silk from slipping around inside the holder.
Especially true for those without backs.

Strange thread for mine, all the TPG's have bumped their grading prices.
It's not hard to understand, these collectables are now bringing significant returns and the TPG's want a slightly bigger piece of the pie.
When a slabbed and graded card brings the premium that it does over raw, this seems a fair and reasoned thought process.

If you don't like, just don't use the service.
If you're just as happy handling these silks with your oiled finger tips, go ahead.
But moaning over a $20 charge over the life of your ownership of this memorabilia is dumb to me.

Now if you were bitching about wait times - THERE'S A POST I"D THUMBS UP.

Pic added coz these silks get so damned little love.


Oh, and I know we get older and constantly want to pay the prices of our youth for things......but that aint a thing.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

The inner sleeve is to stop the thin silk from slipping around inside the holder.
Especially true for those without backs.

Strange thread for mine, all the TPG's have bumped their grading prices.
It's not hard to understand, these collectables are now bringing significant returns and the TPG's want a slightly bigger piece of the pie.
When a slabbed and graded card brings the premium that it does over raw, this seems a fair and reasoned thought process.

If you don't like, just don't use the service.
If you're just as happy handling these silks with your oiled finger tips, go ahead.
But moaning over a $20 charge over the life of your ownership of this memorabilia is dumb to me.

Now if you were bitching about wait times - THERE'S A POST I"D THUMBS UP.

Pic added coz these silks get so damned little love.


Oh, and I know we get older and constantly want to pay the prices of our youth for things......but that aint a thing.

Paying the amount we did in our youth is the last thing consumers lament and care about... the last. It's getting VALUE for the extra money charged, which rarely if ever happens today. Surely, that isn't "dumb" to you??

The motto of most businesses today is I'll give you LESS, but demand MORE.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by kmac32

True! My grading is not about the grade, it is about how the card displays in my collection. It is also about protecting the card. Thought about it and they are probably doing the surcharge do to the value of the cards. The ones in August had no back and these did. Still does not justify their action in my opinion.

All of my sets from 1909 through 1975 display great in binders and plastic sheets. Very easy to pull a year out and flip through it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by danmckee

All of my sets from 1909 through 1975 display great in binders and plastic sheets. Very easy to pull a year out and flip through it.

+1. Love looking through your binders!

[kmac32]

Final solution for the issue at hand. Going to have them grade only my Chas O’Leary Koester bread card at the expedited level. It costs about $100 to do so but worth it to get it back into the display. Makes the current dollar amount paid basically a wash and they will return the rest of the cards ( 3 silks and a T210 Wahl card back to me. I refuse to pay the upcharge as I do not perceive the value in it as I have 2 silks that they did not put the mylar on and those cards are fine. I also understand what the mylar does but this was not explained to me and it was handled more as just give me your credit card.

A better explanation rather than it is what it is would have been appropriate as I am a logical person and do listen. Not exactly good customer service in my opinion. I had 2 solutions for them, grade the card without the mylar and what happens is mine to deal with ( which Would be fine for me) or grade only the Koester Bread card and send the rest of the cards back to me ungraded.

This is my last submission to SGC and I appreciate Tyler’s patience and help. SGC definitely dropped the ball on this one. Communication is everything and if losing a long standing customer over an upcharge is their choice, then that is their choice. As a business owner, I would never handle a client this way as you may have a short term profit but you lose over the long game. I may not spend a huge sum on submission but the bad will generated is not a smart move.

My 2 cents.

Kmac

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by danmckee

All of my sets from 1909 through 1975 display great in binders and plastic sheets. Very easy to pull a year out and flip through it.

Now I need your T205 Drum Back of Mordecai Brown at a price my budget can handle.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

The inner sleeve is to stop the thin silk from slipping around inside the holder.
Especially true for those without backs.

Strange thread for mine, all the TPG's have bumped their grading prices.
It's not hard to understand, these collectables are now bringing significant returns and the TPG's want a slightly bigger piece of the pie.
When a slabbed and graded card brings the premium that it does over raw, this seems a fair and reasoned thought process.

If you don't like, just don't use the service.
If you're just as happy handling these silks with your oiled finger tips, go ahead.
But moaning over a $20 charge over the life of your ownership of this memorabilia is dumb to me.

Now if you were bitching about wait times - THERE'S A POST I"D THUMBS UP.

Pic added coz these silks get so damned little love.


Oh, and I know we get older and constantly want to pay the prices of our youth for things......but that aint a thing.

All 3 cards in question have backs in tact, nice cards so they most likely would not slip around

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Well, at least you can take comfort in knowing they can't grade S74 silks worth a damn in the first place

IMO, it's a fools errand to try and grade them, just too many variables. S74s, B-18s, BF2s, pins, and other oddball sets, are memorabilia, unlike cards with their standardization, and their value should hinge entirely on what a buyer is willing to pay for what he sees, not on some subjective "grade" another person decides to give it. I can see slabbing them for authenticity, maybe, but if you don't know enough to recognize fakes of these things, why are you collecting them?

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

IMO, it's a fools errand to try and grade them, just too many variables. S74s, B-18s, BF2s, pins, and other oddball sets, are memorabilia, unlike cards with their standardization, and their value should hinge entirely on what a buyer is willing to pay for what he sees, not on some subjective "grade" another person decides to give it. I can see slabbing them for authenticity, maybe, but if you don't know enough to recognize fakes of these things, why are you collecting them?

Reason for slabbing is not the grade, it is about protecting the cards. I know a real S74 when I see one. Will get them slabbed elsewhere other than SGC.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Reason for slabbing is not the grade, it is about protecting the cards. I know a real S74 when I see one. Will get them slabbed elsewhere other than SGC.

If you truly just want to protect your cards, why not reach out to any of the grading companies to see if they will encapsulate without the grade/flip? I know PSA used to to this for next to nothing (I think you needed to do it in volume, though).

[Exhibitman]

Or just put them in mylar sleeves. Low cost, no upcharges, no delays, archival safe.

[rsst206]

SGC shouldn't be grading Silks - Silks belong in albums- for me White series fit
nice in 9 pocket mylar so you can see the backs. Colored in a 4 pocket with acid free paper and mylar.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by rsst206

SGC shouldn't be grading Silks - Silks belong in albums- for me White series fit
nice in 9 pocket mylar so you can see the backs. Colored in a 4 pocket with acid free paper and mylar.

Those are nice!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by rsst206

SGC shouldn't be grading Silks - Silks belong in albums- for me White series fit
nice in 9 pocket mylar so you can see the backs. Colored in a 4 pocket with acid free paper and mylar.

Gorgeous way to display them! The only complaint is you have too many Cobbs cluttering up the pages.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Final solution for the issue at hand. Going to have them grade only my Chas O’Leary Koester bread card at the expedited level. It costs about $100 to do so but worth it to get it back into the display. Makes the current dollar amount paid basically a wash and they will return the rest of the cards ( 3 silks and a T210 Wahl card back to me. I refuse to pay the upcharge as I do not perceive the value in it as I have 2 silks that they did not put the mylar on and those cards are fine. I also understand what the mylar does but this was not explained to me and it was handled more as just give me your credit card.

A better explanation rather than it is what it is would have been appropriate as I am a logical person and do listen. Not exactly good customer service in my opinion. I had 2 solutions for them, grade the card without the mylar and what happens is mine to deal with ( which Would be fine for me) or grade only the Koester Bread card and send the rest of the cards back to me ungraded.

This is my last submission to SGC and I appreciate Tyler’s patience and help. SGC definitely dropped the ball on this one. Communication is everything and if losing a long standing customer over an upcharge is their choice, then that is their choice. As a business owner, I would never handle a client this way as you may have a short term profit but you lose over the long game. I may not spend a huge sum on submission but the bad will generated as not a smart move.

My 2 cents.

Kmac

Agree with everything you've said.
Poor communication is poor business, and they shouldn't be surprised that they will lose not only yours - but others because you've shared your experience.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Paying the amount we did in our youth is the last thing consumers lament and care about... the last. It's getting VALUE for the extra money charged, which rarely if ever happens today. Surely, that isn't "dumb" to you??

The motto of most businesses today is I'll give you LESS, but demand MORE.

I don't want to be rude, but if you don't understand the VALUE you receive from having cards graded, memorabilia authenticated, etc., then getting your pants knotted in this thread is the last thing you should be worried about.

There is enormous value in nearly everything you can acquire these days, should it fit your needs.
From the food you eat, the tv you watch, the car you drive, the music you listen to...all are produced at costs just pennies on the dollar to what would have been necessary in the past, due to automation and delivery services and methods.
If you had to put your own hours into learning, perfecting, and producing any of the above it would likely cost you a hundred times as much in whatever your hourly work value would be worth in your own profession.

If you view such things as grading cards in a poor light to begin with, for whatever reasons they are, your prejudice informs you to think of a plastic slab and an 'experts' opinion as not valued at todays costs.

If however, you value the grading service because it allows widespread confident trade in trinkets you have a fondness for, and that such grading will regularly add 50% to it's value and in cases double or triple its value, it's really not all that difficult to understand where many see value.

Again, pay to play or don't play.
Complaining about the cost when you don't HAVE TO go graded to enjoy this hobby is DUMB.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

If you truly just want to protect your cards, why not reach out to any of the grading companies to see if they will encapsulate without the grade/flip? I know PSA used to to this for next to nothing (I think you needed to do it in volume, though).

Worth checking into. Thanks for the suggestion!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I don't want to be rude, but if you don't understand the VALUE you receive from having cards graded, memorabilia authenticated, etc., then getting your pants knotted in this thread is the last thing you should be worried about.

There is enormous value in nearly everything you can acquire these days, should it fit your needs.
From the food you eat, the tv you watch, the car you drive, the music you listen to...all are produced at costs just pennies on the dollar to what would have been necessary in the past, due to automation and delivery services and methods.
If you had to put your own hours into learning, perfecting, and producing any of the above it would likely cost you a hundred times as much in whatever your hourly work value would be worth in your own profession.

If you view such things as grading cards in a poor light to begin with, for whatever reasons they are, your prejudice informs you to think of a plastic slab and an 'experts' opinion as not valued at todays costs.

If however, you value the grading service because it allows widespread confident trade in trinkets you have a fondness for, and that such grading will regularly add 50% to it's value and in cases double or triple its value, it's really not all that difficult to understand where many see value.

Again, pay to play or don't play.
Complaining about the cost when you don't HAVE TO go graded to enjoy this hobby is DUMB.

I think the problem wasn't the grading in general, but that there was an unannounced upcharge to place the silks in a plastic sleeve as part of the process. And that that upcharge seemed unreasonably large.

Just going with it as a labor item, how long does it take to get a silk into a sleeve? Maybe a minute? Lets be generous and call it two minutes. Someone could easily do 30 cards an hour. At $20 per, that's basically charging 600/hour to place a card in a sleeve.

If that sounds totally reasonable to you, I'm happy for you. You must be doing very well.
I also have a fantastic bargain for you! I'll send you a vintage card from my collection for free! I just want $20 to put it in a sleeve AND toploader plus the postage. (Don't go getting all excited, it's a 48 Leaf common that would grade a 1.5 on a good day.)

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think the problem wasn't the grading in general, but that there was an unannounced upcharge to place the silks in a plastic sleeve as part of the process. And that that upcharge seemed unreasonably large.

Just going with it as a labor item, how long does it take to get a silk into a sleeve? Maybe a minute? Lets be generous and call it two minutes. Someone could easily do 30 cards an hour. At $20 per, that's basically charging 600/hour to place a card in a sleeve.

If that sounds totally reasonable to you, I'm happy for you. You must be doing very well.
I also have a fantastic bargain for you! I'll send you a vintage card from my collection for free! I just want $20 to put it in a sleeve AND toploader plus the postage. (Don't go getting all excited, it's a 48 Leaf common that would grade a 1.5 on a good day.)

Nope, the charge sounds very much out of line with the amount of work it requires. If someone else will do the job - at a TPG I respect and will use - for far less, then I'll go there. And the way I'd go about it here on this forum is to praise the one I like and that is better.
If all the TPG's charge a similar price I have one option.

Pay the price and get it mylar'd, or don't.
At the TPG I care for the most.
Complaining about the price is a waste of time.

I've got a 2012 Audi A7.
When I take it to the Audi dealership for an oil change, it's one price.
When I take it to an independent Euro garage who have great technicians who all own Euro cars and love to work on them, it costs me 40% less.
And the job is done more to my liking at the indy shop, where they do a proper drain of old oil/install new drain plug etc, whereas Audi just do a top vacuum removal because it's less work, requires them to not have to fiddle with a new drain plug or be responsible for leaks. And it's way worse for the engine because far less of the sediment/contaminants are removed.

Do I go to my Audi forum (which I'm a member of) and bitch about the price Audi charges which everyone who owns Audi already knows about, or do I make a thread recommending my local auto shop here in Kansas City for any interested in a better product for less money?
If I didn't have a local shop, and could only use Audi.....what good would it do me to complain about the price of the oil change???
I chose to have one of my cars be a German brand that has higher maintenance costs. My return on that choice is the quality of machinery I feel I get to drive, and the way it looks.

I get it, Ken didn't know he was going to get upcharged at all, and then was offended by the size of the upcharge.
It's really worth this thread???

To me it's just another rant thread about someone not liking the way third party grading companies do their business.
Whereas I like the end product and accept I have to pay to play or simply not play.

That IS an option, right?
Rather than just ragging on SGC and creating a thread that has their name and GREED as it's header, and the long explanation of how awful their customer service is because they wouldn't succumb to Ken's wishes, maybe just a simple "Geez it's getting expensive to use these TPG's today, how does everybody else feel"? might have flown more reasonably.

But on this forum it's just become completely de rigueur to simply whale on those TPG's for anything and everything.

So, carry on I guess.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I don't want to be rude, but if you don't understand the VALUE you receive from having cards graded, memorabilia authenticated, etc., then getting your pants knotted in this thread is the last thing you should be worried about.

There is enormous value in nearly everything you can acquire these days, should it fit your needs.
From the food you eat, the tv you watch, the car you drive, the music you listen to...all are produced at costs just pennies on the dollar to what would have been necessary in the past, due to automation and delivery services and methods.
If you had to put your own hours into learning, perfecting, and producing any of the above it would likely cost you a hundred times as much in whatever your hourly work value would be worth in your own profession.

If you view such things as grading cards in a poor light to begin with, for whatever reasons they are, your prejudice informs you to think of a plastic slab and an 'experts' opinion as not valued at todays costs.

If however, you value the grading service because it allows widespread confident trade in trinkets you have a fondness for, and that such grading will regularly add 50% to it's value and in cases double or triple its value, it's really not all that difficult to understand where many see value.

Again, pay to play or don't play.
Complaining about the cost when you don't HAVE TO go graded to enjoy this hobby is DUMB.

This is beyond flawed logic to me. If something has perceived value to you, then ANY cost associated with it is doesn't matter, regardless of the amount?? With all due respect, I think that's the definition of dumb. Let me guess, any company that TELLS you their product has "value" regardless of the price.... and you're sold! .....right?

"You say it has value? I'll take this many!!!"

... would you still be seeing the same "value" if grading prices tripled tomorrow?

You're a marketing person's wet dream.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

This is beyond flawed logic to me. If something has perceived value to you, then ANY cost associated with it is doesn't matter, regardless of the amount?? With all due respect, I think that's the definition of dumb. Let me guess, any company that TELLS you their product has "value" regardless of the price.... and you're sold! .....right?

"You say it has value? I'll take this many!!!"

... would you still be seeing the same "value" if grading prices tripled tomorrow?

You're a marketing person's wet dream.

You're an idiot.
Stop and read and think.
You're babbling in an attempt to win an argument you clearly don't understand.

Value by definition means perceived worth of something.
If I perceive the item has worth at the cost being charged, it has VALUE to me.
Regardless of what a company or you or anyone else thinks, it may have value to ME.
I can then choose to exercise whether to use my discretionary funds to attain it.
I don't HAVE to, I can CHOOSE to.
Were the cost of something to go up 300%, if it still has value to me eg. I want to own that item more than have the money in the bank, or I believe it to be worth more than the rise in cost and therefore a sound financial decision, I can choose whether or not to purchase said item or service.

We're on a forum that discusses the ownership of little bits of paper and other memorabilia, most of which has zero value to most people on the planet. The vast majority would roll their eyes at the amount collectors pay for items largely 'worth' in their estimation its value in joules on a cold winters night. And YOU think a TPG who wants to charge $20 for mylar an outlier to logical value LOL.
Move along son if you have so little grasp of the discussion point.

[Mozzie22]

Originally Posted by rsst206

SGC shouldn't be grading Silks - Silks belong in albums- for me White series fit
nice in 9 pocket mylar so you can see the backs. Colored in a 4 pocket with acid free paper and mylar.

Man does that look nice. Love to see that Wolter in a better scan.