Enough with the hostility...

[wazoo]

Hey guys, I hope all is well. I wanted to bring this thread up because I'm sure some others feel the same way (I hope). I feel that the environment has become quite hostile recently, and some of our inner feelings are really starting to come out. Don't get my wrong, that's not always a bad thing, but I feel like we've come to the point where enough is enough. I want to get back to learning more about t206s and other sets, but I feel this is being clouded by each others' emotions. I know a lot of it is sarcasm, but I just don't think it's needed. Let's think about it, we're all card/memorabilia collectors, we all have that in common. I'm not complaining, I just feel like that it has discouraged me from posting as much as I usually do.

[Leon]

I agree Wazoo. And some will say I can stop the bickering. Well, yes and no. As I was telling a member yesterday, my MO is always to let things go as much as possible. It always has been. That being said 2 threads have been locked in the last week. That is unusual. Thanks for posting about this Wazoo. I hope everyone will work on being more civil. And if you don't like the way the board is going, start a good thread and take it in another direction.

[zljones]

I am in agreement, in the past I posted some threads that revealed a good amount about myself, because I do not hold things back alot of times, but I was met with some sarcastic smart ass remarks from some. I just don't understand what makes a person be cocky when someone else is sharing about themselves. I'm not cocky so I don't understand.
But for the most part I have had great experiences talking, buying, selling. And hope to come back and buy again once I find work. Still a great forum .

[wazoo]

Thank you Leon. I feel the board is fine, but this just knocked us all a little off course. Now I'm not saying stop all the jokes and the good times, but we all need to learn when it's time to call it quits. Just how I'm feeling about this matter. Thanks once again guys.

[MacDice]

I don't think that anyone can argue that we all need to play nicely. The hard part is sometimes someone is being sarcastic in an innocent way but then some people don't take well to the sarcasm or don't realize it is sarcasm. This can be especially difficult when so many of us have never met each other and don't have a relationship with each other outside this form. That is why we need to chose our words carefully.

[HRBAKER]

I would also point out that there are some folks here that have been going back and forth with each other for years, and I mean years. We have migrated over from two previous incantations of the board. Others without the benefit of having seen how we "play" with each other might take things the wrong way at times. Also while there is nothing to be gained from outright hostility, a little bit of thick skin can serve one well. Wazoo, nice post.

[itjclarke]

I also agree with OP. I probably haven't been involved enough to get caught in the middle of any of the agressive, hostile, or condescending posts/threads.. but am pretty taken aback by some of them. I especially feel bad for some of the newer board members (I fall into that category) that have an honest question, but get hammered.. a recent thread about authenticity of a T206, and other about the oil pianting come to mind. It would be a bummer if people just trying to learn or get feedback become less likely to post their questions. Everyone one was a beginner at some point, and a lot of things that are obvious to many are not to others. For me, it's a hobby, it's for fun.. I do not really understand where all the ego and attitude fit into it.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I also agree with OP. I probably haven't been involved enough to get caught in the middle of any of the agressive, hostile, or condescending posts/threads.. but am pretty taken aback by some of them. I especially feel bad for some of the newer board members (I fall into that category) that have an honest question, but get hammered.. a recent thread about authenticity of a T206, and other about the oil pianting come to mind. It would be a bummer if people just trying to learn or get feedback become less likely to post their questions. Everyone one was a beginner at some point, and a lot of things that are obvious to many are not to others. For me, it's a hobby, it's for fun.. I do not really understand where all the ego and attitude fit into it.

I was a part of the oil painting thread and can give you specific reasons for my post. The auctioneer who started the thread, in my opinion, seems to hype auctions even more than the usual. It wasn't a bad thing, again in my opinion, to chop down the idea that it was somehow a prominent painting of Cy Young. I could already see the auction description in my head.

I agree that the board seems more aggressive than usuall, but I think it has a lot to do with the large influx of new members getting defensive and taking things too personally. Some people used to find some of the sarcasm funny. I did. The personal attacks are getting a bit out of hand but I think it has a lot to do with misunderstanding, followed by a subsequent snow ball effect.

-Matt

[HRBAKER]

I agree that the board seems more aggressive than usuall, but I think it has a lot to do with the large influx of new members getting defensive and taking things too personally. Some people used to find some of the sarcasm funny. I did. The personal attacks are getting a bit out of hand but I think it has a lot to do with misunderstanding, followed by a subsequent snow ball effect.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

To paraphrase Chairman Mao, card collecting is not a tea party. Nothing wrong with a little ego and attitude in my opinion.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I also agree with OP. I probably haven't been involved enough to get caught in the middle of any of the agressive, hostile, or condescending posts/threads.. but am pretty taken aback by some of them. I especially feel bad for some of the newer board members (I fall into that category) that have an honest question, but get hammered.. a recent thread about authenticity of a T206, and other about the oil pianting come to mind. It would be a bummer if people just trying to learn or get feedback become less likely to post their questions. Everyone one was a beginner at some point, and a lot of things that are obvious to many are not to others. For me, it's a hobby, it's for fun.. I do not really understand where all the ego and attitude fit into it.

+1...well said, Ian.

I feel the same way about things. Some of these new guys get "jumped" when they post questions. I understand that to some of us the answer is clear as day, but to people that just joined and venturing into the hobby and pre-war, it's like learning a new language. All we can ask is for everyone to be a little patient and take a step back and evaluate.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

For me, it's a hobby, it's for fun.. I do not really understand where all the ego and attitude fit into it.

My sentiments exactly! I know we all compete with each other when it comes to bidding on items at auction. But these competitions about: "Who has the best collection?" or "Who has the most knowledge about a certain card set?" or "Who can come up with the snarkiest jab to a new collector?"... well, to me it demonstrates someone trying overcompensate for something. Total nerdville!

[Matthew H]

In all of the new member introduction threads, I can't recall a single snarky comment. I guess I'm just not seeing what others are...

Ken, as far as "total nerdville"... Ummmmmm, we collect baseball cards. Easily the least nerdiest thing on the planet. In fact I heard they're writing James Bond's baseball card collection into the next 007 flick

[triwak]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Ken, as far as "total nerdville"... Ummmmmm, we collect baseball cards. Easily the least nerdiest thing on the planet. In fact I heard they're writing James Bond's baseball card collection into the next 007 flick

+1

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To paraphrase Chairman Mao, card collecting is not a tea party. Nothing wrong with a little ego and attitude in my opinion.

Ha, maybe it bit naive of me.. There's probably a fair amount of room for ego in just about anything from politics to picking fruit. I guess I just don't derive any of my ego from cards... This being greatly aided by the fact that NO one else in my immediate circle collects, so I'm generally alone in this thing.

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I was a part of the oil painting thread and can give you specific reasons for my post. The auctioneer who started the thread, in my opinion, seems to hype auctions even more than the usual. It wasn't a bad thing, again in my opinion, to chop down the idea that it was somehow a prominent painting of Cy Young. I could already see the auction description in my head.
-Matt

Sorry, I may have jumped the gun a little to use that example, since I clearly don't know the whole story behind your's or maybe others' comments on that thread. I guess in general (any thread/post) what stands out to me more are the times when it seems responders are just piling on someone. Especially when it's someone causing no harm or foul to anyone else. Another instance comes to mind, a guy simply asking for something and gets 7-8 smart ass comments back. Maybe it's an empty request, and I've got no problem with sarcasm and good humor (I love the Judd Apatow/Seth Rogan movies as much as the next guy). In my mind the first and 2nd are harmless, maybe even funny, but the 5th, 6th and on get old, especially when saying basically the same thing. But worse, the 5th, 6th and 7th make some guy feel like he's swimming in a sea of sharks. Whether the responders are right or not, I think there's no need to keep kicking someone while down.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Ken, as far as "total nerdville"... Ummmmmm, we collect baseball cards.

Originally Posted by triwak

+1

+another here.. nothing makes me feel nerdier than laying my cards out on the coffee table.. And I have completely embraced it!!

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

+another here.. nothing makes me feel nerdier than laying my cards out on the coffee table.. And I have completely embraced it!!

That's awesome.

It's good that the rest of the world doesn't know what they're missing. There really isn't enough to go around.

[teetwoohsix]

Great post Wazoo.

I understand that many board members go way back (I refer to them as "veterans") and maybe it's hard for (some) of the veteran collectors to accept new collectors. I've read posts over the time I've been on Net54 talking about "the good old days of the old board" and I've noticed collectors that used to post all of the time when I joined sort of fade off of the board , and now only make a rare appearance.

I've often wondered, what made the old board "better" for these collectors? I say that because when I joined, you had the same exact things going on as you have now..occaisional spats, threads about cards, lots of knowledge sharing, talk of auction houses and ebay, the monthly pick up thread, etc.. I mean, other than more people joining and participating, what is different for the veterans?

I'll admit that it's hard to know whether something is said in a sarcastic way, or if that's just the posters regular personality; I often wonder if I word my posts right. I think sometimes when I question certain veteran collectors, they take it as an "attack", when in reality I am just asking a question. Then, my question may be ignored (that's fine) or I may be met with a condescending (sp?) remark (which is fine as well, but I may respond likewise ). Communication breakdown

I recently read the thread where Steve K. said he was banned, and to this day I don't know what that was all about, but it was pretty unsettling to me. He's always seemed like a decent guy to me, but was getting hammered in that thread. Maybe there's a story there I don't know about, but I figured that type of treatment would be reserved for someone who rips someone off, or something of that nature.

I'm all for making Net54 a better place, and enjoyable for everyone-from veterans to new collectors. It is really all about the love of cards, and the joy of collecting, and learning as much as possible. Peace.

Sincerely, Clayton

[midwaylandscaping]

I spend more time reading than posting, but I think Leon does a good job. I see no more hostility here than some other boards I read also. Be it comic book or a card related board.
Also the only board I would use to seek opinions / advice if I ever decided to jump into pre-war collecting.
Positives on this board by far outweigh the negatives.

[wazoo]

Great responses everyone! All of you bring up very valid points. I believe someone mentioned something about the comments in a new member's post. It is true that some of the comments can be rude and not very accepting. I can thank everyone for being very kind when I was new to the board, but that's not always the case for other members who just joined. Just my two cents.

[wazoo]

And I'm not trying to play it as like it's a perfect world of course!

[Jason]

Sorry for this but it fits perfectly......Can't we all just get along!

[mrvster]

like waz, this board will have a great future

[rainier2004]

Alright Waz, I just started a t206 thread I had been a tad timid about starting and got motivated after your post. Honestly though, does anyone get the irony of our nearly youngest member discussing the benefit of treating each other better? You are one mature guy Wazoo but you spend too much time with us old farts! (Now that is sarcasm, a joke, I like Wazoo and would never mean any harm to him!)

[Paul S]

Thanks Waz. You put your finger on what I couldn't quite figure out myself: which is, why I don't feel like not only posting but even reading. There's already alot of great info to deal with w/o having to sift through the other stuff.
I've always been a big advocate of the post war vintage side of the board. I find myself spending more time there than usual. A good question to ask might be: why doesn't this sort of thing go on over there (post war side)?

[Fred]

I come to this board to have a bit of fun and relax. I always do my best to not sweat the little stuff and even the big stuff.

We've all got our own opinions and sometimes we just need to accept that others may have an opinion that may differ.

There's always got to be one smart ass...

As Rodney King said during the LA Riots of 1992: "Can we all get along..."

Now lets sing Kumbaya...

[nolemmings]

Now lets sing Kumbaya...

+1

[drmondobueno]

Couldn't help myself.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=nkhTA...%3DnkhTA6MQ3BQ

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

+1...well said, Ian.

I feel the same way about things. Some of these new guys get "jumped" when they post questions.

Mike, it's not just the dumb questions - in some cases it's any questions or comments whatsoever - when I re-joined the hobby after a long hiatus, I found 'new' guys here who had joined while I was gone, and who seemed to have a need to 'protect their turf.' It takes a while to work past those people, and I can promise you they are paying no attention to this thread. If I thought they were, I wouldn't be posting this.

Edited to clarify: The 'new' guys I'm talking about are people who established themselves as board veterans while I was gone. Basically, newbies turn into oldies and some of them eventually become part of the problem - this should be obvious, but thought I would clarify. Also, it's good to keep such perspective when you join a new forum and feel like you are getting beaten up - remember that one day you'll be an old established guy and should treat the next generation of new guys better than you were treated.

[wazoo]

Thanks guys! Really, it means a lot to have a welcoming board. You guys were so nice to me, and still are, so I just want to make sure the tradition continues for the other guys. I know, I can't believe it either, but my year anniversary will be coming up in a few months, so time really flies when you're having fun. Best regards guys.

[E93]

I think it is a lot easier to be aggressive when hiding behind a keyboard. Some people just get a rush from it. It happens far less frequently when people have actually met each other face-to-face. Of course not everyone can get to the Net54 dinner at the National, but those sorts of things help for keeping things civil. It would be good if we would all put a little thought into the most skillful way to put things when they are potentially contentious or conflict-inducing.

Credit goes to Wazoo, but it should be humbling that it takes a 16 year old to bring this conversation up.
JimB

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by E93

I think it is a lot easier to be aggressive when hiding behind a keyboard. Some people just get a rush from it. It happens far less frequently when people have actually met each other face-to-face. Of course not everyone can get to the Net54 dinner at the National, but those sorts of things help for keeping things civil. It would be good if we would all put a little thought into the most skillful way to put things when they are potentially contentious or conflict-inducing.

Credit goes to Wazoo, but it should be humbling that it takes a 16 year old to bring this conversation up.
JimB

It's interesting you should bring this up - I could not agree more.

I was just talking with a board member on the phone, who was upset with someone. I told him that once you see someone face-to-face, it is if they are a completely different person, and it's almost impossible to still feel the same dislike you felt for the 'guy on the internet'. I highly recommend meeting people face-to-face, especially the ones that you feel resentment toward because of internet interactions.

[ethicsprof]

I do think that it is very difficult to ameliorate hostility without some measure of self-awareness accompanied by compassion for the other. The lack of a balanced self-awareness often yields egocentricity which is a breeding ground for hostility. Typically, when we engage others on the board so as to satisfy our own self-aggrandizement, we are inclined to hurt whoever or whatever breaches the boundaries of our arenas of 'kingship'. When we engage others for reasons of collegiality and hopes for the enlivening and enlargement of communities of learning, we operate most frequently with openness and a desire to create the common good, not just our own egoistic 'good'. My hope is for an engendering
of balanced awareness and the common good---in all of us.
all the best,
barry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I do think that it is very difficult to ameliorate hostility without some measure of self-awareness accompanied by compassion for the other. The lack of a balanced self-awareness often yields egocentricity which is a breeding ground for hostility. Typically, when we engage others on the board so as to satisfy our own self-aggrandizement, we are inclined to hurt whoever or whatever breaches the boundaries of our arenas of 'kingship'. When we engage others for reasons of collegiality and hopes for the enlivening and enlargement of communities of learning, we operate most frequently with openness and a desire to create the common good, not just our own egoistic 'good'. My hope is for an engendering
of balanced awareness and the common good---in all of us.
all the best,
barry

That makes me want to do this...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I do think that it is very difficult to ameliorate hostility without some measure of self-awareness accompanied by compassion for the other. The lack of a balanced self-awareness often yields egocentricity which is a breeding ground for hostility. Typically, when we engage others on the board so as to satisfy our own self-aggrandizement, we are inclined to hurt whoever or whatever breaches the boundaries of our arenas of 'kingship'. When we engage others for reasons of collegiality and hopes for the enlivening and enlargement of communities of learning, we operate most frequently with openness and a desire to create the common good, not just our own egoistic 'good'. My hope is for an engendering
of balanced awareness and the common good---in all of us.
all the best,
barry

I couldn't have said it better Barry. Actually, I couldn't have said it....period.

[ethicsprof]

Leon, your words are most kind. Thank you.
Scott, your picture is most funny. Thank you.
I do hope,scott, that it is a metaphor for your desire to provide such libations to your
community of scholars in a celebratory fashion.
all the best,
barry

[frankbmd]

A civil approach with some measure of self-awareness accompanied by compassion to satisfy my own self-aggrandizement

Okay, I know they're not prewar, wanna fight about it?

[Hankphenom]

Several years ago, I read that some 5% of people have a sociopathic personality. Suddenly, a great deal of human behavior was explained to me. These are not psychopaths, they will not become serial killers, although I'm sure they are responsible for most of the criminal behavior. Instead, they will live more or less normal lives and seem pretty much like everyone else, except they will be doing it without any feeling or caring for other people. That doesn't mean they won't do something that's in your best interests, but only because it's in their best interests, too. We live with these people, we work with these people, and they are in our hobby, too. They come to our notice most often on the roads and in chat rooms. They are the ones who, when seeing a lane shift up ahead, drive as fast as they can to get to the head of the line before merging, and they are the ones who taunt and jeer from behind the safety of a keyboard. They are cowards, mostly, and would never act like that in public for fear of the consequences. These are the jerks of the world, known colloquially as ***holes. But they could care less about what we think of them. In fact, they think the rest of us are stupid and weak, like Ray Liotta's character Henry Hill says in "Goodfellas." 5%--1 in 20. It really does explain a lot.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Several years ago, I read that some 5% of people have a sociopathic personality. Suddenly, a great deal of human behavior was explained to me. These are not psychopaths, they will not become serial killers, although I'm sure they are responsible for most of the criminal behavior. Instead, they will live more or less normal lives and seem pretty much like everyone else, except they will be doing it without any feeling or caring for other people. That doesn't mean they won't do something that's in your best interests, but only because it's in their best interests, too. We live with these people, we work with these people, and they are in our hobby, too. They come to our notice most often on the roads and in chat rooms. They are the ones who, when seeing a lane shift up ahead, drive as fast as they can to get to the head of the line before merging, and they are the ones who taunt and jeer from behind the safety of a keyboard. They are cowards, mostly, and would never act like that in public for fear of the consequences. These are the jerks of the world, known colloquially as ***holes. But they could care less about what we think of them. In fact, they think the rest of us are stupid and weak, like Ray Liotta's character Henry Hill says in "Goodfellas." 5%--1 in 20. It really does explain a lot.

Hank, I met one of these people about 8 years ago and we became good friends. There was something odd and disattached about him, but I didn't understand it until he told me that he was a 'social misanthrope'. As he went on to describe himself, very clinically, I thought he was joking. But he told me that because he doesn't care about anyone (what they think, how they feel, etc.), he has had to learn the proper social responses in various situations. He was in his '50s when I met him, so he had had years to practice.

Social misanthropes are a lot different from people who are actually @ssholes by nature. The care, just not in the correct direction.

Edited to add: actually, our friendship was a one-way friendship, as he had no need whatsoever for friends. If he got upset with someone, it wasn't really 'being upset' as much as it was being perturbed because he knew the other person wasn't following accepted social rules.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's it! All those CU guys are sociopaths, I knew it!

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Hank, I met one of these people about 8 years ago and we became good friends. There was something odd and disattached about him, but I didn't understand it until he told me that he was a 'social misanthrope'. As he went on to describe himself, very clinically, I thought he was joking. But he told me that because he doesn't care about anyone (what they think, how they feel, etc.), he has had to learn the proper social responses in various situations. He was in his '50s when I met him, so he had had years to practice.

Social misanthropes are a lot different from people who are actually @ssholes by nature. The care, just not in the correct direction.

Edited to add: actually, our friendship was a one-way friendship, as he had no need whatsoever for friends. If he got upset with someone, it wasn't really 'being upset' as much as it was being perturbed because he knew the other person wasn't following accepted social rules.

Are you friends with Dexter?

[sbfinley]

I do not mind heated discussion or healthy disagreement. It is unnecessary nor practical for all members to agree or to simply agree to disagree. What I do not find necessary is the overtly vulgar language and innuendos that seem token to the board now. I would agree that this community is largely full of affluent adults, but collecting cards is the product of childhood hobby and it would be ignorant to think that some of the younger collectors don't migrate here. If your response to a matter is something you wouldn't reasonably be comfortable letting your adolescent son or daughter read aloud then it probably isn't an enrichment to the board or hobby. Keep things in prospective, some people struggle to find their next meal. We spend disposable income on old baseball cards.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

Are you friends with Dexter?

I forgot about that show, but yes, Dexter is a perfect example of a 'social misanthrope' - like my friend, there is just a glimpse of empathy, etc. Like Dexter, a lot of people enjoyed being around my friend. But that may say more about our failure to pay attention to others, than anything else.

[packs]

I only really get frustrated with the autograph forum. I love autographs and I think we've got some incredible members other there. But man, enough is enough.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by packs

I only really get frustrated with the autograph forum. I love autographs and I think we've got some incredible members other there. But man, enough is enough.

There is a reason they have their own private Idaho . Love those guys but they can squabble....

[T206Collector]

A large segment of the pre-war hobby is competitive. From set registries to bidding against each other at auction -- the experience caters to it. Add a dash of human jealously inherent in material possessions, and a pinch of class struggle over what kinds of old cardboard we can each afford and then...

BLAMMO!!

...humans behaving badly.

Imagine if we all owned or could own the same cards for the same price without any economic or scarcity barriers. My that would be boring -- like a world awash in 1988 Donruss.

A lot of the competitive/difficulty in acquiring these little treasures is what makes the hobby great. But it can also get out of control when egos get involved.

[Gradedcardman]

As most have mentioned, it is great to have this point as part of the everyday discussion. Although I have not had the back and forth on the boards for everyone to see, I do have a similar situation to what Dan has had with an ebay listing. Simply put, the card is listed at a price that I feel leaves room for negotiating. I get an offer (from a board member) and then counter. The guy comes back and tells me essentially what a crappy card it is, that its not graded, that its only missing one color and on and on. Listen, if I make a counter and you don't like it then reject the offer. Don't start lowering your offer to be a jerk. Anyway, I am not going to open that can of worms here because its not that important.

Anyway, again thanks to Wazoo for this thread !!

[E93]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I do think that it is very difficult to ameliorate hostility without some measure of self-awareness accompanied by compassion for the other. The lack of a balanced self-awareness often yields egocentricity which is a breeding ground for hostility. Typically, when we engage others on the board so as to satisfy our own self-aggrandizement, we are inclined to hurt whoever or whatever breaches the boundaries of our arenas of 'kingship'. When we engage others for reasons of collegiality and hopes for the enlivening and enlargement of communities of learning, we operate most frequently with openness and a desire to create the common good, not just our own egoistic 'good'. My hope is for an engendering
of balanced awareness and the common good---in all of us.
all the best,
barry

I nominate Barry as the official Net 54 philosopher! Well said my friend.
JimB

[EvilKing00]

IMO there isnt anything to fight about, jesh, its just cardboard

[carrigansghost]

Scott posting on a thread about getting along? I can't wait for my collection to be sold. I found this board to be a great way to waste free time until the new batch came around. Richard, I'm sorry I took your comments wrong. I do have a narrow frame of collecting and got crap from a lot of MEMBERS. Either appeciate other's collections or get the hell out. I left for 4 months just to see if anything would change, yup, it got worse.