Here We Go Again!!

[robw1959]

Will these phonies never cease? I can only imagine how high the final bid is going to be for this piece of junk . . .
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380698569181...84.m1423.l2649

[ScottFandango]

T-206 HONUS WAGNER ROOKIE W/SWEET CAPORAL BACK *CHECK OUR STORE 4 MORE!


4 more what, I'm afraid to see....

[nsaddict]

Hey, this gem does include free shipping! And remember no returns as to avoid card switching..what a fool.

[the 'stache]

"The holey grail of sports cards."

And

"After ebay ended the listing they had someone look close at the card, it was determined.. it could possibly be real and we can list as so."

[steve B]

It's an interesting fake, not quite good enough, but better than most.

The one they used as the source is labeled 4a here
http://t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

The graphics touchups are a bit slicker than usual, the upper left is added, and so is the stained/damaged area at the lower right.

And they used the same back scan, with another reconstructed corner. (Upper right)

The source is an odd choice. It's one of the few Wagners with a misregistration to the right. (Maybe the only one?) All that effort and they chose one of the more identifiable ones to work from.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Where do sellers come up with this bullshlt? I've seen this same exact line in many ebay scam listings:

As per ebay policy if not graded we must list as a reprint ..real or not.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Where do sellers come up with this bullshlt? I've seen this same exact line in many ebay scam listings:

As per ebay policy if not graded we must list as a reprint ..real or not.

I haven't looked at Ebay rules in a long time. However, there is (was) a listing violation called "authenticity disclaimer." This is a textbook example of this transparently slimy listing practice. Obviously, there is no such Ebay policy.

[thehoodedcoder]

there is actually a policy on big name cards like this.

edit. i am looking for where i saw that. i definitely read that some where before and it specifically mentioned the wagner.

will let you know if i find it.


double edit. this in of itself should void the listing:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...sclaimers.html

and then there is this which is not explicit...but basically says if it is not graded they can do what they want:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/autographs.html



kevin

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's an interesting fake, not quite good enough, but better than most.

The one they used as the source is labeled 4a here
http://t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

The graphics touchups are a bit slicker than usual, the upper left is added, and so is the stained/damaged area at the lower right.

And they used the same back scan, with another reconstructed corner. (Upper right)

The source is an odd choice. It's one of the few Wagners with a misregistration to the right. (Maybe the only one?) All that effort and they chose one of the more identifiable ones to work from.

Steve B

nice link steve, someone should send that info to ebay, these scammers need to be stopped

[EvilKing00]

I sent the guy the link steve posted, he said he was removing the listing

[nsaddict]

Yup...the auction was ended. One bidder had a 10K max??

[CaramelMan]

I wonder why Wagner 25b psa2 does not have a MK designation when the date stamp is clearly visible on the back..all the cards that I have that have the same stamp, are called MK.....come on PSA

[steve B]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I sent the guy the link steve posted, he said he was removing the listing

That's a nice surprise. I hope the seller isn't out much if he also thought it might be real.

I wouldn't expect Ebay to be any help at all.

Back when I started Ebay I emaild them about a small lot of fake cards. Black and white Goudeys of Ruth and Gherig with machine cut corners, really obvious but listed as real. Their reply was A) Lazy and B) insulting. Basically they wouldn't look at other auctions of real cards that I sent links to, and gave the polite version of "who the __ are you to say they're fake"
I guess readily available links on their own site from someone with around (at the time) 25 years experience wasn't even worth a brief look.

I haven't bothered since.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

I wonder why Wagner 25b psa2 does not have a MK designation when the date stamp is clearly visible on the back..all the cards that I have that have the same stamp, are called MK.....come on PSA

I don't use PSA, but as I understand it you can have cards graded with or without qualifiers. I think the deduction is usually about two grades.

So it could have been done as a 4MK or a straight 2. Personally I think it's closer to VG, but Wagners always seem to get a little bump in grade.

Steve B

[slipk1068]

I accidentally posted this on the thread Connor912 started about the ending price of this auction. I think I will get better results if I post this here.

Could someone educate me about what makes this a fake? Is the only reason it is FOR SURE a fake is because it is not slabbed?

I saw this for one for sale about a week ago, and was considering bidding $100 for it. I thought the background looked a little too orange and not golden enough, and I was 99% sure it was a fake. Also, the dark brown outline around the card looks a little too washed. Still, I thought it was worth $100 to fill a hole in my collection (kinda like what we call filler).

I am just looking to learn. Please take a look at my link below and tell me why this card is fake other than the fact that it is too good to be true and not slabbed. Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Ho...vip=true&rt=nc

[the 'stache]

Hi Slipk,

There are certainly T206 experts here that will know more than I, as I have only recently started collecting "the Monster", and learning about it. But I have a few things to say, and I'll wait for some of the big guns on the forum to chime in.

First thing, never assume a card is real because it's been slabbed. Unless a card is in Beckett slab, always operate under the assumption that what you're looking at could be a fake. Thieves are counting on you making an assumption that a card slabbed by PSA or SGC is the real deal when they put a fake card in a fake slab, or a fake card in a real slab they've cracked. Always buy the card. Look it over carefully. If you have questions, ask your friends on Net 54. It's always better to ask then to buy something, only to find out later you've been burned.

When considering a card, I always compare it to a known legitimate example. This is what handwriting experts do when verifying the authenticity of a signature.

On the right is a good example from T206resource.com. The one in question is on the left.



The coloring on this one is all wrong. Look at the face on the fake. Also, look at the border surrounding the portrait. The real card has a black border. The fake has a brownish border. The card doesn't pass the smell test.

[slipk1068]

Hi Bill,

I definitely see the much crisper, cleaner, clearer image on the real card. I was going to have my wife open a link with a real specimen on her computer before I bid so I could do some comparisons. Either way, no chance I was going to pay more than $100 for what I was sure was nothing more than set filler/conversation piece.

I believe the border surrounding the card is supposed to be a dark brown not black same as the name/city/league designation? I thought I read that somewhere years ago.

Very cool the was you put the 2 cards together for comparison. Also, AWESOME information about not trusting a card just because it is slabbed. Just curious, why trust Beckett any more or less than PSA or SGC?

David

[the 'stache]

David,

The Beckett holder, as I understand, is two pieces, one placed on top of the other, and it locks shut. In order to get the card out, you'd pretty much have to break the case, and there's no way it could be reused. If you compare their case to a PSA or an SGC, it's much bigger for this reason.

The current PSA and SGC cases are sonically sealed. Two pieces are welded shut, creating a seam along the side. If you use a knife, or a screwdriver flat head, you can pry the slab open along the weld, and pull the card out. There are people that have figured out how to open those cases, and glue them shut, virtually without leaving any trace.

PSA premiered a new slab at the National, and it's supposed to be similar to the Beckett one. It looks like they're finally addressing the issue, which makes me a happy collector. They're happy, too, as I expect they'll realize a small fortune from people reslabbing their cards.

[the 'stache]

Another thing. Because of the Wagner's relative scarcity, I would be very leery of any T206 Honus Wagner that has not been slabbed. And if somebody has a real T206, they're not going to put it up on Ebay with a starting bid of $10.

If you look at the sales history for this card, even a PSA 1 is selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars:

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm...dID=1914461978

It's the most famous card ever made, and if somebody has it, they're going to know it's relative worth, and not throw one up on the bay for a few bucks.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hi Slipk,

There are certainly T206 experts here that will know more than I, as I have only recently started collecting "the Monster", and learning about it. But I have a few things to say, and I'll wait for some of the big guns on the forum to chime in.

First thing, never assume a card is real because it's been slabbed. Unless a card is in Beckett slab, always operate under the assumption that what you're looking at could be a fake. Thieves are counting on you making an assumption that a card slabbed by PSA or SGC is the real deal when they put a fake card in a fake slab, or a fake card in a real slab they've cracked. Always buy the card. Look it over carefully. If you have questions, ask your friends on Net 54. It's always better to ask then to buy something, only to find out later you've been burned.

When considering a card, I always compare it to a known legitimate example. This is what handwriting experts do when verifying the authenticity of a signature.

On the right is a good example from T206resource.com. The one in question is on the left.



The coloring on this one is all wrong. Look at the face on the fake. Also, look at the border surrounding the portrait. The real card has a black border. The fake has a brownish border. The card doesn't pass the smell test.

Now just to make it a bit less clear and more clear all at once.....

The overall coloring wouldn't necessarily put me off a card. There are some T206s that show differences in coloring.

And the grainy scan could simply be a bad grainy scan. Some sellers simply can't figure out how to have decent scans or pictures.

The borders can be thin on some subjects, and are almost always black or very dark gray, very occasionally they seem brown. The name is usually brown, but can be gray.

So it's often a matter of what's normal for that particular players card.
That's what makes the galleries at sites like T206 resource valuable. You can see a number of Wagners in decent detail.

In this case, there really aren't any with nearly missing borders, and none with such a large difference in color. So that combined with the grainy scan makes 3 rather large red flags.

As you see more cards, you'll develop a sense of what looks "right" and "wrong" Most people have to think about why a card looks wrong, but the reaction is often correct.

It's easier with a card in hand. So many things will be "wrong" about the fake they will be easier to spot.

The cracked holder with a swapped card either lower grade or an outright fake is a valid concern, and more reinforcement to the "buy the card not the holder" advice.

Steve B

[slipk1068]

Thanks Bill, Thanks Steve, Very Helpful information.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Striker

Sigh.... sold for $2,999.99!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1910-Ho...-/151148559484

I thought that eBay had a rule regarding Wagner and a fat fistful of other cards, saying that they HAD to be TPG-ed.

[thehoodedcoder]

they do.

[ajw9356]

New to Net54 but not to cards, however this isn't my area of expertise.
I have seen and held a card that had the Piedmont back. The card was purchased by a local in Kansas where I live at an auction about 30-35 years ago according to the card owner. I looked over the card and it was in a box of tools when purchased and has a pretty good oil stain to prove that. The biggest issue I had with the card was that it appeared to have a clear coat or something on top of the card that was not part of the original card. I need to get some pics if the card ever comes back into daylight, but had a couple questions for those familiar with these cards. I thought it looked suspect with the coating, however, I trust the guy who has it that it was purchased that long ago.
1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?
2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?
Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ajw9356

New to Net54 but not to cards, however this isn't my area of expertise.
I have seen and held a card that had the Piedmont back. The card was purchased by a local in Kansas where I live at an auction about 30-35 years ago according to the card owner. I looked over the card and it was in a box of tools when purchased and has a pretty good oil stain to prove that. The biggest issue I had with the card was that it appeared to have a clear coat or something on top of the card that was not part of the original card. I need to get some pics if the card ever comes back into daylight, but had a couple questions for those familiar with these cards. I thought it looked suspect with the coating, however, I trust the guy who has it that it was purchased that long ago.
1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?
2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?
Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints?

1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?

Yes, but probably not as a regular production card. I'm fairly sure all the Piedmont backed Wagners have odd issues.

2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?

Sometimes. Could be shellac or varnish put on to protect it, or is fake a more modern gloss coating
.
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?

Either would be fine. But I'd recommend posting a good front and back scan here. The overwhelming odds are that it's a reprint. And at the least we can save one of you some postage.
At least one of the very common reprints is Piedmont backed, and readily available. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T-20...item5d454885c8
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?

If there's no factory shown at the bottom of the back It's probably fake.If there are signs or erasing where the copyright notice and "reprint" are on the back of the reprint linked above it's fake for sure. A couple of the other reprints may be piedmont backs too, but I can't find scans of them to be sure. The two big sets had a company name at the bottom of the back, so any problems in that area are almost a sure sign of a reprint.
The cardboard was one thickness, so if it looks at all like two layers it's probably a reprint skinned and glued to a real common.
The old printing looks very different than modern printing. The best thing is to get a low grade common T206 and study it. There should be plenty out there for under $20 maybe even closer to 10.

Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints

Late 70's for sure, maybe early -mid 70's. Most of those were specifically made for collectors and have a back that describes the card. I have an earlier version that's black and white, so not exactly a reprint. But the later ones could fool someone if skinned and glued.

Steve B

[ajw9356]

Thanks for the info, it's been two years since the guy has removed the card from a safe deposit box. Known him for 6 years, only knew about it after 4 years.
The one and only time I saw the card he had it in one of those super thick acetate slabs and refused to take it out, so I'm going to talk to him about looking it over again. I was able to look at it for about a half hour and I've seen some of the T206 before, I was pretty sure the back was consistent with a real card, so when you say the Piedmont backs weren't regular issue I'm assuming that the printed ones were all supposedly or supposed to be destroyed, if you could elaborate open the issues with them that would be great. Any idea if it would smell like tobacco? I know it was a fairly worn card, so the corners were well rounded, but I can't recall all the damage it had sustained. The biggest thing I could see was that there was definitely a coating but the part that had chipped off revealed what appeared to be fairly consistent with a real issue as well. I just didn't think that real good quality fakes were made more than 30-35 years ago. If it's a fake, it's top quality other than what ever was put on the surface, that was the other thing I didn't understand was if someone took the time to protect the surface why find it in a box of tools. I believe there were a small number of other vintage in the same box, but that doesn't mean whichever auction house didn't put them there. Ever heard of anyone using a shellac or varnish to protect cards? I've seen those reprints, was nothing like that, wasn't modern cardboard. Was there ever a reprint with rounded/cropped corners, I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall. I had dismissed the card as a fake because of the surface issue, but would really like to see it again.

[1880nonsports]

" I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall."

Sorry I really don't understand (not unusual). Hopefully you will be able to post some scans.....?

[Rollingstone206]

...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ajw9356

Thanks for the info, it's been two years since the guy has removed the card from a safe deposit box. Known him for 6 years, only knew about it after 4 years.
The one and only time I saw the card he had it in one of those super thick acetate slabs and refused to take it out, so I'm going to talk to him about looking it over again. I was able to look at it for about a half hour and I've seen some of the T206 before, I was pretty sure the back was consistent with a real card, so when you say the Piedmont backs weren't regular issue I'm assuming that the printed ones were all supposedly or supposed to be destroyed, if you could elaborate open the issues with them that would be great. Any idea if it would smell like tobacco? I know it was a fairly worn card, so the corners were well rounded, but I can't recall all the damage it had sustained. The biggest thing I could see was that there was definitely a coating but the part that had chipped off revealed what appeared to be fairly consistent with a real issue as well. I just didn't think that real good quality fakes were made more than 30-35 years ago. If it's a fake, it's top quality other than what ever was put on the surface, that was the other thing I didn't understand was if someone took the time to protect the surface why find it in a box of tools. I believe there were a small number of other vintage in the same box, but that doesn't mean whichever auction house didn't put them there. Ever heard of anyone using a shellac or varnish to protect cards? I've seen those reprints, was nothing like that, wasn't modern cardboard. Was there ever a reprint with rounded/cropped corners, I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall. I had dismissed the card as a fake because of the surface issue, but would really like to see it again.

I've seen a few shellacked cards, as well as a few that were laminated in the 70's to "protect" them. It was more common on signed baseballs.

I've also seen cards coated in wax - but late 40's early 50's cards. The wax made them heavier for one of the card flipping games.

The reprints vary in quality, most have obvious flaws, but were also sold as reprints so they didn't try very hard to get them exact. Here's one of the early 80's ones. Obvious things different, but if someone hasn't seen more than a couple T206s it might pass if the front was pasted to a common.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONUS-HANS-W...item51b0e7debb

There are very few real ones with Piedmont backs. I can only be sure of two, one is handcut and has some printing issues, so it's probably printer scrap. The other is very famous, but is now known for sure to be trimmed, and is rumored to have been cut from a sheet at some time. There's probably one or two others but I can't find scans.

Another reprint was sold in a common book from Dover press. Thinner paper, and perforated so you could remove it from the page. But I have seen dover reprints with machine rounded corners and trimmed off edges being sold as real. (In 1979 -) Those would also appear decent if glued to a real card. and they were glossy.

A lot of edge wear, no creases, maybe coated with something, all points to a fake.

It's not entirely unusual for an auction, -especially a not so well lit country auction- to include an item like that in a lot that might need a bit of "help" in order to sell. Maybe a box of tools that's not going to bring much and hasn't sold in an earlier auction. It's crooked, but it's done. And not always by the auction, since some just auction whatever comes through the door that morning. I've bought items at auctions like that, and stuff needs a very good looking at to be sure what you're getting. The one time I didn't check an item out closely worked out well, but could easily have gone the other way. (40's Braves warmup jacket that I didn't even see in the preview. They had it on a chair behind one of the tables and I just figured it was one of the workers jackets. Nobody else looked at it either, and there were only two bidders)

Steve B

[t206blogcom]

Card is an obvious fake, or am I pointing out the obvious? Did this one originate in Ohio as well?

[Leon]

Hopefully no one got screwed out of their money on this one. An obvious fake from a person doing their best to commit fraud. They should write fairy tales and would surely make money that way. They are definitely good at making crap up...

[ajw9356]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

" I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall."

Sorry I really don't understand (not unusual). Hopefully you will be able to post some scans.....?

The card basically looked fairly worn like some of my Dad's 1950's that looked to be in poor condition because of handling, card games, what ever mishandling they endured (sometime bicycle spokes, which my dad admitted to doing), however, I don't recall there being any major creases.

Originally Posted by Striker

A 7x jewlers loupe might be a good first step!

Ya, I've got a pretty nice loop and two different magnifiers, along with a blacklight and a digital caliper, so I should be able to get a pretty good measurement on the card even the thickness.

Originally Posted by steve B

I've seen a few shellacked cards, as well as a few that were laminated in the 70's to "protect" them. It was more common on signed baseballs.

I've also seen cards coated in wax - but late 40's early 50's cards. The wax made them heavier for one of the card flipping games.

The reprints vary in quality, most have obvious flaws, but were also sold as reprints so they didn't try very hard to get them exact. Here's one of the early 80's ones. Obvious things different, but if someone hasn't seen more than a couple T206s it might pass if the front was pasted to a common.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONUS-HANS-W...item51b0e7debb

There are very few real ones with Piedmont backs. I can only be sure of two, one is handcut and has some printing issues, so it's probably printer scrap. The other is very famous, but is now known for sure to be trimmed, and is rumored to have been cut from a sheet at some time. There's probably one or two others but I can't find scans.

Another reprint was sold in a common book from Dover press. Thinner paper, and perforated so you could remove it from the page. But I have seen dover reprints with machine rounded corners and trimmed off edges being sold as real. (In 1979 -) Those would also appear decent if glued to a real card. and they were glossy.

A lot of edge wear, no creases, maybe coated with something, all points to a fake.

It's not entirely unusual for an auction, -especially a not so well lit country auction- to include an item like that in a lot that might need a bit of "help" in order to sell. Maybe a box of tools that's not going to bring much and hasn't sold in an earlier auction. It's crooked, but it's done. And not always by the auction, since some just auction whatever comes through the door that morning. I've bought items at auctions like that, and stuff needs a very good looking at to be sure what you're getting. The one time I didn't check an item out closely worked out well, but could easily have gone the other way. (40's Braves warmup jacket that I didn't even see in the preview. They had it on a chair behind one of the tables and I just figured it was one of the workers jackets. Nobody else looked at it either, and there were only two bidders)

Steve B

Thanks Steve

[tbob]

Before you buy any pre-war cards from a seller on ebay, especially higher price cards, always check and see what else he is selling and has sold in the last 6 months. If he is predominantly selling shiny insert cards from 2012 and 2013, RUN!