Correlation of T206 OLD MILL & SOVEREIGN No-Prints

[tedzan]

The PIEDMONT brand was printed on all 522 subjects in the T206 set. The 15 other T-brands in this set; however, fall short of this mark. So, it gets very "tricky"
to figure out NO-PRINT's (N-P) when putting together a run of these sub-sets.

For example, I tend to like the Green colored backs, so I started to collect the SOVEREIGN cards. Why not....the "Big Six" guys were not printed with SOVEREIGN.
Nor were the 48 tough Southern Leaguer's. I completed my all-SOVEREIGN set in 2007. This complete sub-set comprises of 402 different cards. In the process, I
identified 65 subjects in the SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) series that I claim are SOVEREIGN No-Prints.

These 65 N-P have withstood the test of time, as NONE of these cards have appeared with SOVEREIGN 350 backs in the past 7 years. Therefore, I am confident
that American Lithographic did NOT print them with SOVEREIGN backs.

Furthermore....I observed a strong correlation with their OLD MILL (OM) counterparts. Sixty-two of these 65 subjects have yet to be discovered with OM backs.
I venture to say that these 62 subjects are OLD MILL No-Prints. The three exceptions are Bliss.....Elberfeld.....Freeman.





List of NO-PRINTS.....SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) and OLD MILL

Abstein
Adkins
Arellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss .........................................printed with OLD MILL
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minneapolis)
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dessau
Dorner

Downey (fielding)
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington) .....printed with OLD MILL
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman ...................................printed with OLD MILL
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis NL)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Hunter
Jones (portrait Detroit)
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Maloney

Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck

Shannon
Sharpe
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett



I welcome any conversation on this subject....or additions or corrections to this information.

Stay tuned....more OLD MILL info will be forthcoming.


I would like to express my appreciation to Scot Reader for confirming this data with his extensive survey of T206 cards.


TED Z

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
LOOKING for these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (portrait)
McGRAW (portrait-cap)....McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off)....WILTSE (portrait-cap)

[cdn_collector]

Morning Ted,

Apologies if this is obvious -- does your observation speak to any specific print group? I don't know the print groups as well as many, but I see that the first bunch on the list are from the 350 series.

(Question/though triggered because George Gibson has an OM but has not yet been confirmed with an Sovereign 350; but he's part of the 150-350 group)

Regards,

Richard.

[tedzan]

Good Morning Richard,

The cards that I have identified here as No-Prints apply strictly to the group of T206 subjects that are in the 350-Only series.

With respect to the SOVEREIGN cards....although there is a possible total of 203 subjects in the 350-Only series (forest green)....138 subjects
were printed. Therefore, the 65 subjects listed are what I have identified as No-Prints.

Thanks for your question,


TED Z

[atx840]

Hey Ted,

I have started to break up the groupings I have found by splitting out the unconfirmed examples to see where that gets me. As you noted there are several cards that are unconfirmed across many backs....one could assume these are a grouping that likely don't exist in those f/b combination...however I am hesitant to go to far down this path as it can cause more uncertainties if one does show up...like the three examples with OM you listed.

There is also the potential that during a second/third print run that a player was swapped out (error, team change etc) on a sheet and that sheet then printed with a back that the initial sheet wasn't.

First print run
Sheet of 10 cards printed with Piedmont & Sov backs.

Second print run - card 10 is swapped with a new card
Sheet of 10 is printed with Piedmonts backs and now an OM run.

You end up with 11 cards with Piedmont, 10 with Sov and 10 with OM and the two cards that were swapped have different f/b combinations..one has Pied & Sov and the other has Pied & OM. This really messes the groupings up as they appear to be in separate groupings even though they are sheetmates to the other 9 cards.

I think it will take a group all working together with the pop reports and everyones data to really solve these once and for all.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Hey Ted,

I have started to break up the groupings I have found by splitting out the unconfirmed examples to see where that gets me. As you noted there are several cards that are unconfirmed across many backs....one could assume these are a grouping that likely don't exist in those f/b combination...however I am hesitant to go to far down this path as it can cause more uncertainties if one does show up...like the three examples with OM you listed.

First print run
Sheet of 10 cards printed with Piedmont & Sov backs.

Chris

What evidence do you have that the SOVEREIGN press run was that early in the game ?

My theory has always been that PIEDMONT press runs were first....SWEET CAPORAL secondary. These two T-brands were the primary tobacco products of ATC in
that era.

SOVEREIGN was a tertiary brand in the ATC system and its distribution was regionally limited; therefore, printed subsequent to the 2 above stated prime T-brands.


TED Z

[atx840]

Hey Ted. Sovereign was just an example, could happen with other backs.

I'm trying to break down the subgroups even more to try and find a pattern. The primary holdup is the print runs and which cards were swapped out for whatever reason.

[tedzan]

The recent thread regarding the Exclusive 12 subjects of the 460-only series (check-out......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163949)
informs us that these 12 guys are very available with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, SOVEREIGN 460, and are more available with red HINDU backs (relative to
the other red HINDU subjects).

However, anyone collecting the T206 OLD MILL sub-set will soon discover that these 12 subjects are virtually impossible to find with the OLD MILL back.
While the other 36 subjects in the 460-only series are quite available with OLD MILL.









TED Z

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
LOOKING for these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (portrait)
McGRAW (portrait-cap)....McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off)....WILTSE (portrait-cap)

[tedzan]

The following T206 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the OLD MILL back. They were printed with the SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) back.
Therefore, if there is a printing correlation between the OLD MILL and the SOVEREIGN 350 cards, perhaps these guys will eventually appear with
OLD MILL backs.

Jack Barry
Shad Barry
Carr
Chappelle
Downs
Dygert
Grimshaw
Del Howard (Chicago NL)
McGinley
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
Fred Mitchell (Toronto)
Pickering
Quinn
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Shaw
Slagle
Speaker
Strang
Unglaub
Warhop


I would really appreciate if anyone on this forum can confirm any of these 21 subjects with an OLD MILL back.

Please post your input(s) here, or email me at...... tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The following T206 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the OLD MILL back. They were printed with the SOVEREIGN 350 (forest green) back.
Therefore, if there is a printing correlation between the OLD MILL and the SOVEREIGN 350 cards, perhaps these guys will eventually appear with
OLD MILL backs.

Jack Barry
Shad Barry
Carr
Chappelle
Downs
Dygert
Grimshaw
Del Howard (Chicago NL)
McGinley
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
Fred Mitchell (Toronto)
Pickering
Quinn
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Shaw
Slagle
Speaker
Strang
Unglaub
Warhop


I would really appreciate if anyone on this forum can confirm any of these 21 subjects with an OLD MILL back.

Please post your input(s) here, or email me at...... tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks,

TED Z

Hey guys

One more try here to see if any of the above listed T206's were printed with the OLD MILL back ?

I appreciate your time and effort searching for any of these 21 cards.


TED Z