[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by dgo71

How do you know when Clemens (or anyone) started using? That's my biggest complaint with this "they would've been HOFers anyway" arguement. How does anyone know that these guys wouldn't have gotten hurt or tailed off dramatically? 4-5 great seasons isn't enough for HOF induction or Dwight Gooden, Maris, Strawberry and others of that caliber would be in already. Instead of the current stat lines and awards that Clemens, Bonds etc. have, what if we were looking at a 10-year career with 3-4 dominant seasons...hardly enough to merit induction. Who can say that wouldn't have happened? There are too many variables and the steroid use puts doubt over the entire bodies of these players work, making even lofty numbers like 600 career HRs seem meaningless. That doubt is the #1 reason these guys aren't in.

I think it's generally accepted that Bonds started using once he got to San Francisco. If there's compelling evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. But he'd already achieved greatness before putting on a Giants uniform. In the three seasons prior to his move out west, he'd been a two-time MVP, an MVP runner up, a three-time Gold Glove winner, and was a 30-30 player twice. His 162 game averages between 1990-1992 clearly establish him as one of the best two or three players in the game: .301 AVG, 113 runs, 36 doubles, 34 home runs, 122 RBI, 49 SB, 120 BB, .990 OPS, 177 OPS +, 8.9 WAR. While there's no way for sure to know what he'd have done had he remained in a Pirates uniform, barring injury, he was on the fast track to the Hall of Fame.