[ls7plus]

I tend to think the "pioneer" proposition will prove to be correct, although I don't think anyone will feel that a direct comparison can be drawn to statistical performance pre-PED and PED. Personally, I used to love to watch Mark McGwire, and despite his inablility to acknowledge that steroids enhanced his HR prowess, there is no question that it did--that 370 foot out becomes a 410 foot homer, with the increased bat speed. However, I believe that McGwire also does have a point when he talks about the credit that should be given to the evolution of his swing. That swing went from rather long and loose to the sweetest, most compact, lightning quick stroke I ever saw. And when he hit them--wow! The scoreboard in Cleveland; high off the scoreboard to the opposite field in Shea! I was at Tiger Stadium for an interleague game in '99, when the Tigers played the Cards, and we got there early for batting practice. Big Mac hit four over the roof in left, including one in left center! Those that only made the upper deck in left, where we were sitting, we're still coming at us like cannon shots, even at the end of their flight, while balls hit by other players just came looping towards us in the same area. We decided we wouldn't want to even try to catch one of McGwire's balls bare-handed! Plus, PED or not, the guy generally carried himself with class. I've got a '92 game-used bat of McGwire's with extremely heavy use that I will probably never part with. I must admit that I am now conflicted about him: that performance in the late '90's amazed all of us who were naive, and now we know it wasn't at all real in the same sense that the accomplishments of players like Mantle, Mays, Aaron, the Babe and Maris were real.

I also liked to watch Bonds, even though by that time everyone knew his performance wasn't legit. It was just that I'd never seen anyone make major league pitching look like slow-pitch softball before. I thought he was such a jerk, but he gave one an idea of what it must have been like to face the Babe or Ted Williams in their primes.

Perhaps a more interesting question: the Mets clubhouse attendant wrote a book wherein he took credit for supplying hundreds of players with 'roids during that time period. What do we do with these guys as far as the Hall of Fame is concerned? Build a cheater's wing? And if we do that, how do we really know who to place where? Pudge Rodriguez is not usually classified as a PED cheater, yet while he was a Tiger, he lost about 26 pounds on a supposed "diet" that he couldn't even attempt to explain to the local news reporters! With those pounds, went his power forever.

Is it just hero to zero, or is there a return trip that's going to be there for these guys? They also DO have some cards that are scarce or even rare enough to have some significant value--both of their Topps Tiffany rookies had only a 5,000 print run, while Big Mac had a Topps refractor commemorating #70 that they only printed 15 of. PSA had graded 7 last time I checked (I haven't submitted mine). Bonds has a 2002 refractor commemorating his #73 in 2001, which I purchased because it is indeed part of baseball history, and I can thus hold that part of the history right in my hands. And A-Roid has a Sportfics Artist's Proof rookie with a print run of maybe 200 max. Food for thought. I have all these cards, and I'm not tossing 'em, regardless of value. For better or worse (on which I remain conflicted), they are still part of the game I treasure so much--I played for many, many years as well as I could, then I watched it, and then I collected it.

Good thread.

Larry