Originally Posted by begsu1013
haven't read the entire thread, but considering the op's questions/concerns...
it all depends on which side of the fence you happen to be on for each individual card. each circumstance or auction is it's own monster.
1. there are people that intentionally bid up in very small increments and/or retract early in on a card for the sole purpose of giving the appearance of it getting shilled. i know of an individual, not personally, that has an ebay account solely for pwcc purchases and it purposely registers as 100% bidding activity w/ them. it's an out of the box bidding tactic, but it does indeed happen and is a lot more widespread than what most people think. they are intentionally running off other bidders on the sole basis that they wont participate in a card that is " so obviously being shilled". in the end, it is a game. i do not practice this tatic but cant hold it against someone that uses it. of course, their thought process is the exact opposite of "shilling". they are doing it in an attempt to keep the final price lower, not higher. does it work? no clue. i bid my figure and if i win, great. i never really look at who else is and how they are bidding once my eyes were opened to this strategy. it simply doesn't matter to me now that i know this strategy is definitely used and in play.
2. as for "protecting ones investment", this is where it becomes which side of the fence you graze upon. ive always bought duplicates. several times over in fact. i play the bump game and have my strategy of doing it w/ multiple examples. and even when they do bump, my sub wasnt for profit driven motives. i haven't sold a card that has yet. but when i get locked in on a card i will purchase a number of them at said price points. could this seem phishy (playing at wrigley right now, btw) to someone else looking at the activity from their vantage point? of course, but i don't care. could someone view it as someone "protecting their investment"? sure. but again, i don't care. not a flipper. but i always pay for the item once won or committed to purchase. now, if one bids it up and doesn't pay solely to inflate the price...then i would say it's definitely unethical.
3. as for bidding on ones own items, again as long as they pay i don't see a problem w/ it. i do get the other side of the fence's argument though as well. as jake mentioned if they have to cough up $500 on $5000, then that's the price they pay. however, if they bid it up and don't pay? definitely unethical both on inflation and of intentially wasting someone elses time and resources. and i applaud brent for automatically blocking nonpayers after the first instance. naturally he doesn't want his staff's time wasted, but it does weed out nonpaying shillers overtime which should help. of course, registering a new ebay account isn't brain surgery either. however, if 2 people collude to consign a card and then both bid the card up to a new stratosphere solely to create a new plateau, pay the commission fee and then they put one of their "other 9s" up a few days after this "new documented sale", i would definitely define that as market manipulation and completely unethical. this happens on an extremely frequent basis and have made notes on the subject matter over the past couple of years. it's funny how quickly the "new stratosphere card" comes right back to the market after the second card has sold at/near/above the new plateau price. they are basically paying a $500+ commission fee (or $250 max ebay fee and simply claim "mark item as being paid, don't exchange money or have to pay 3% paypal fee either) to generate thousands of additional dollars for that grade, twice!
4. and over time i have realized that what appears phishy to me "most" of the time probably isn't. recently someone pointed out publically what they thought was some suspicious activity on a spree of mantles that was purchased w/i a span of 30 minutes or so. just turned out that it was me, but again i can certainly understand where someone else would think that it was suspicious from their vantage point. a few other occasions have occurred as well, no need to rehash and i'll just digress there. must admit, brings a smile to this side of the fence and slightly entertaining to engage and gather the overall consensus when those type posts occur. a lil devious on this end, for sure.
5. now is it unethical for seller "a" to post a card, collude w/ buyer "b" to run the card up to a predetermined price or list an insane bin now price, click "buy" and money isnt even exchanged solely to manipulate vcp, ebay "sold" listings as a valid sale? definitely unethical, sad thing is that generally people fall for it all the time. and overtime it usually does become the new norm because of a "target/conversation/thread starter". "d@mn, did you see the hammer on the 79 gretzky psa 9 auction". stuff like this creates buzz for a said card/grade. is there anyway to prove that the card wouldn't have done that on its own accord overtime?
nope.
it is what it is.
so best just not to get caught up in the "what if's" and what the other side of the fence is doing.
concentrate on your game. not their's.
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