Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno
Players on your list:
Graig Nettles
Ken Boyer
Buddy Bell
Sal Bando
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey
Toby Harrah
Players on your list who were better 3B than Pie Traynor:
Graig Nettles (insanely better 3B than Traynor)
Ken Boyer (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Buddy Bell (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Sal Bando (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor)
Darrell Evans
Ron Cey
Do they belong in the HOF? Not saying that. Just that they are all (minus Toby Harrah) better than Pie Traynor.
I would also add the following non-HOF 3B as easily better than Pie Traynor:
Scott Rolen
Robin Ventura
Stan Hack
Bob Elliot
Heinie Groh
Matt Williams
Others who a good argument could be made that they are better than Traynor:
Tommy Leach
Troy Glaus
Tim Wallach
Gary Gaetti
Ken Caminiti
So, by the time of Traynor's retirement, the following players were better or a good argument could be made that they were better, than Pie Traynor:
Frank Baker
Jimmy Collins
Heinie Groh
Tommy Leach
Your statement that Traynor is "better all around" than Baker and Jimmy Collins is laughably inaccurate. Collins was at least as good a hitter and far better defensively. Baker was a far better hitter and at least Traynor's equal defensively, if not slightly better.
Tom C
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None of those players were better than Traynor. There is absolutely no evidence provided, although I would guess you would provide the extremely flawed OPS+. Neither Baker or Collins were in Traynor's class defensively. It is a shame that we have very incomplete data, as Traynor's greatness will be lost as more and more skeptics refuse to believe eyewitness testimony and put their faith in unscientific statistical analysis by those uneducated in the subject.
Hitting data is also incomplete, but from partial data, we know Pie was very good in clutch situations, but NO data on Baker or Collins. Pie also had a longer peak which resulted in higher counting stats as well as have a much higher BA, but you only consider that for Brooks to hate on Pie. It is truly sad that people now completely disregard the opinions of experts for opinions of the uneducated misusing statistics and analytical methods. Pie was the best 3rd baseman of the first 80-90 years of MLB and no one is close. Having a website on the internet and post contrasting opinions will never change that fact.