Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>I was reading the daily SABR-L digest and this opening line caught my eye from a post Jay made<br /> <br />I am working on a book about the Old Judge baseball cards set <br /><br />I, for one, am excited to see someone working on what hopefully will be a definitive study of this set.<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich<br /><br />P.S. Now if we can only get Doug Allen to publish his long awaited T206 book <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>How about getting Doug to respond to his statement about taking creases out of cards?<br /><br />Many moons ago said "I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that do not break the surface"<br /><br />Then he said he would report back to us after talking with SGC and PSA.<br /><br />Maybe I missed his response.<br /><br />Also Leon made a comment that Doug told him "it wasn't worth the grief and that he no longer has his staff remove wrinkles or creases from cards".<br /><br />What is wrong Doug with stating your company's policy on this publicly.<br /><br />1)How active were you(Mastro Auctions) in removing creases from cards in preparing them for grading. How many cards would you estimate that you and your staff removed creases from?<br /><br />2)Is Leon right and you have not instructed your staff to remove creases anymore?<br /><br />3)What was the reaction of SGC and PSA to your removing creases? Did they condone this?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>Hey Rich,<br /><br />Is that the kind of response you were looking for when you started this thread?<br /><br />Boy, talk about a rude, negative hijack to a positve, excited post. Good stuff Jim.<br /><br />Rob

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim-<br /><br />Wouldn't it be easier at this point to just call Doug a raving lunatic and throw dog poop on his door step?<br /><br /><br />Dave

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>as i've mentioned before, i have read the manuscript of the T206 book that Art M & Doug wrote, it is thorough and very detailed. hope it eventually gets published.<br /><br />regards,<br />MS

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thanks--maybe we can finally get Doug to respond?

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- you're going after Doug on two different threads, and he is actually agreeing to speak with you privately. Why don't you guys just chat at a convenient moment and not drag this onto the board.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Because its a hobby issue--not a personal issue. Here Doug has a chance to turn around the company's reputation and explain its policies. Why would he not want to do this?

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Who would- with an introduction like that.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't want to speak for him, but he may not want to do it because it is so easy to get attacked when one discusses controversial matters on the board.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jay mentioned this book about 2 weeks ago here on the board that he would like some info on a few of the teams represented in the set. I only collect one team, but I can tell you that I am quite excited about this book as the N172 set is IMO the greatest baseball card set ever produced. If I ever win the lottery look out....

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I am not asking for a discussion just a statement as to what his companies policies were and are today in regard to crease removal from cards.<br /><br />He said he would come back to the board with an explanatiion after talking with SGC and PSA--we have given him over a year to have that conversation.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />No disrespect intended but you, given your absolute, complete, unconditional no-holds-barred refusal to in any way be willing to take your altered cards out of their graded holders (and indeed instructing PSA upon resubmittal to return any non-upgraded cards in their original holders), calling Doug to task for his previous comments about taking creases out of cards is akin to Libya chairing the U.N. Human Rights Committee.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />You are incorrect but I am surprised that you condone taking creases out of cards and would not want an explanation? You don't care about card alteration and would rather use this to(once again) attack me?

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Darn it. I had the 9:45-9:59 p.m. time slot in the "When will Jim Crandell accuse someone of attacking him" pool.<br /><br />Just missed.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Do you takke creases out of cards too Anonymous?

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Rich:<br /><br />I'm not a subscriber to SABR-L, so I was wondering if you could tell us what more info there is about this book? I'm finding myself gazing at my lone Old Judge more and more, and thinking it would be great to learn more about the issue so I could feel more confident in bidding/buying.<br /><br />Any other info?<br /><br />-Al

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Leon-<br /><br />I told you we were overdue. Leave it to Jim. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Dave

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Richard Cline - RC</b><p>I for one would love to hear about the books, great post I might add, and leave this other debate on another thread that I can choose to ignore.<br /><br />RC

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>First we had a masturbation and now a perturbation.<br /><br />Let's move on <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>"You are incorrect but I am surprised that you condone taking creases out of cards and would not want an explanation? You don't care about card alteration and would rather use this to(once again) attack me?"<br /><br />Please tell me one post I ever made in which I condone card alteration. I think to the contrary I have been an outspoken critic of the practice. Rather what I and many others have been trying to impress upon you to apparently no avail is that you cannot credibly be a critic of the practice if by your actions you do not back up your position. And your refusal to take your altered cards out of circulation is such an inconsistent action. <br /><br />Suppose you were to ask PSA to look for alterations. And suppose they were to find some. Would they not offer to compensate you such as to make you substantially whole for your loss? If not, then THAT it seems to me would be as newsworthy a practice as any that has been exposed on this board.<br /><br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>are akin to the movie groundhog day........the alarm goes off in the morning but they just keep coming back.......<br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Do you disagree with me?<br /><br />Do you think its okay to take creases out of cards or would you prefer to sweep it under the rug.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />I will be glad to debate you privately on this but instead of changing the topic you seem to say that Mastro's past practices are wrong. Wouldn't you like to know what their policies are now and have the president state this?

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Yes, but it just rubs me the wrong way when it is you asking the question.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>However, when you proclaim that not ONE of your cards has been altered -- that is almost a mathematical impossibility --- especially on the pre-war cards. Now I do believe that your cards 57 on up are all legit. However, I do find it hard for you to want to start the revolution but duck to the rear when YOUR cards are brought up. It's nothing personal, but in my opinion only -- it hurts your worthy cause<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich<br /><br /><br />Edited for the heck of it

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>The 50's and 60's cards would be the most suspect with all of the card doctoring that went on in the past. Many cards were improved a grade or two, even the ones right out of vending. Razor sharp, but just a bit of recentering needed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Everyone that I know in the hobby think low-to-mid grade prewar cards have the most that are altered--particularly ungraded. Of the 15-20,000 cards I have sent in, the highest percentage that came back altered was prewar.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rich,<br /><br />I said that tongue in cheek. As I said many many times I would like to stop the flow of altered cards into the hobby. What is already out there is water under the bridge. <br /><br />Anyway, what do you think about taking creases out of cards and would you like to hear if the largest auction house in the hobby still does it?

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Jim, you collect low to mid grade pre war cards?<br /><br /><br />Steve<br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />No--just 8s or better--just saying that dealers I have talked to about alteration believe prewar ungraded most likely to be altered.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>SO, all these ungraded cards in old time collections or even on this board have a high number of altered cards? <br /><br />Sorry to say you have been sadly misinformed. <br /><br /><br />Edited to add, that you have nothing to back your statement up except "dealers told me" Perhaps you should learn about cards yourself and not take the word of others, especially if you are going to spend quite a bit of money on them. <br /><br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Not old time collections but sadly a lot of what is out there today is not able to be slabbed as it is altered or simply sold raw altered in an advertised better condition.<br /><br />Jim

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>I'm against any type of altering -- and when you chat with Doug can you get him to answer MY question about his T206 book <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Regards<br />Rich<br /><br />Edited to add a specific request of Jim in his conversation with Doug

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>&lt;&lt;What is already out there is water under the bridge.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Its never too late to do the right thing.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rich,<br /><br />Good for you! Nice to hear someone stands up for what is right and wrong.<br /><br />Sorry to mess up your thread. If Doug calls me I will get you an answer.<br /><br />Jim

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Your out of your league in this argument, you have no idea or proof to back up the off base assertations you make. Again I would suggest you learn about the cards of which you speak first hand. <br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>First off this thread is SO badly hi-jacked it is sickening. Really Jim very very bad form. I think this was a great question to start off Rich. I have read and Art and Doug's pre-printed book as well and it was very very well done and wish too someday it can be published. I am so looking forward to Jay's and Joe's N172 book that I will be buying a signed copy <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />But this has taken a very very wrong turn so I guess I will say Scott is SO right Jim. I believe that there are way more unaltered pre-war cards raw than in holders. Please note I said unaltered.<br /><br />Trevor Hocking

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I would suggest asking an expert. Ask Dave Forman or Joe Orlando or Mike Baker what does he see the highest percentage of alterations in.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>I might be takin crazy pills or something here Jim but doesn't it stand to reason that the reason your "dealer friends" are telling you it is the low-to-mid-grade cards are "more altered" is because they are selling you high grade cards? <br /><br />They don't seem to be the most impartial people in the equation if you ask me. <br /><br />What would they have to gain by saying that it's the 8's and 9's that are altered, other than decreased business that is?<br />-Rhett

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>A long time ago, I hijacked one of Jim's threads -- so I have no problem with that he hijacked one of mine -- however; can we go back to book information now <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Rich

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Rich<br /><br />Thanks for the post. I hadn't noticed the note in SABR-L, and I'm looking forward to Jay and Doug and Art M's work. <br /><br />Max

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rich,<br /><br />I never forgot that and I have been waiting to get back at you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Rhett--I say asking the presidents of the grading companies--they will tell you.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />On May 27, 2007, in this very forum, Doug Allen of Mastro Auctions posted this:<br /><br />"...neither myself or anyone from my firm will ever engage in the alteration of cards. We will disclose alterations that we note in items that are consigned to us and will continue to scrutinize cards submitted to us that have already been graded by an independant service. I refuse to say anything else on the subject..."<br /><br />You did, in fact, read Mr. Allen's post, as evidenced by this response that you made in response to him:<br /><br />"So Doug to reiterate the question that Jeff asked again and has been asked by numerous participants on this thread and which you continue to avoid,is it Mastronet's policy today to take creases out of the cards to "prepare" them for grading?"<br /><br />To help you better understand the answer that he had already provided you, Mr. Allen responded with this:<br /><br />"I have answered the question. We do not alter cards that are submitted to grading services I am not dodging any questions and am not leaving any wiggle room. You all seem focused on crease removal so I will answer that specific question. PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this this is prohibited by my employees."<br /><br />Nine months later, you are still asking the same question of the same man, in every thread on this board that mentions Mr. Allen's company. In fact, you have mentioned in more than one post tonight that you never recall Mr. Allen addressing the issue of policy regarding card alterations on this board. And yet that is clearly not the case, as evidenced by the excerpts from your own posts above, you clearly read and understood Mr. Allen's responses to the very same questions you are asking today.<br /><br />If you are looking for some different answer to the question, please specify. If you don't believe Mr. Allen's answer, please specify. If you have evidence that would refute Mr. Allen's earlier policy statement on this board, please elaborate. We'd all love to hear it. But the place to do it would be in a different thread. You are interfering with other discussions, and I seem to recall you being a pretty vocal opponent of thread hijacking.<br /><br />I am interested in learning more about a potential book on N172s. That's why I opened this thread. If you want to beat up Doug Allen, please go to the designated Doug Allen Beatup Thread, which I believe is entitled "Mastro or Memory Lane," and is the perfect place to discuss clarifications on matters of policy, ad spending, and secretaries.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />Edited for grammar, because I am a monkey.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>Al:<br /><br />While there is nothing funny in anyone getting beat up -- I cracked up when I saw your post about the designated Doug Allen beat up thread. If I were in a Chat room right now -- I would be typing ROTFLMAO<br /><br />And let's get back on target about books. <br /><br />Doug, can you answer my question about your T206 book -0- I don't have a secretary so I'll just email you direct <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />And Jay -- any idea when the book you're working on will be done -- I am really looking forward to reading and adding that work to my library <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Onward! March!<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich<br /><br /><br />Edited to add a few more lines that should make us all smile

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I believe thats checkmate Jim.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Al-<br /><br />Bravo

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Al, you sure know how to ruin a perfect train wreck.

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>First of all I second what Al said...wait a minute all he did was repeat what I said. OK I will confirm again that is what I said.<br /><br />Rich....not sure when the book will be published. Maybe I will dust it off and get it published this year. So much other stuff going on.<br /><br />Hey maybe Jay will let me publish both in one volume...the the two greatest tobacco sets ever issued....whatcha think Jay???<br /><br />Doug<br /><br />

Jay Miller and Doug Allen
 

Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>I too look forward to the publications.<br /><br />Leon - if Jim hijacks one more thread can you PLEASE suspend him! I'm sure everyone is sick and tired of this crap.<br /><br />Rob M.