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Posted By: <b>Robert</b><p>I noticed that these 5 cards that just sold on a major auction look very suspect to me. Just ny following tis board for the past 2 years I have learned a lot about spotting possible trimmed cards. They are all graded by PSA and I would have some serious doubts about them if I where the buyer. What is your consensus?<br /><br /><img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009065/17.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009065/16.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009065/15.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009065/14.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009065/13.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Hard for me to tell without having them in my hand with my trusty magnifying<br />glasses and loupes.<br />They are beauts with no real red flag from my naked eye.<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>The upper right corner of the Ritchey might warrant a second look. As stated, it is hard to tell without having them in hand.

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Posted By: <b>Keith O'Leary</b><p><P>Robert,</P><P>&nbsp;</P><P>I think you're right.&nbsp;You HAVE acquired a keen and&nbsp;suspicious eye. 3 corners on the Ritchey, upper left and lower right corners on&nbsp;Powers, both lower corners on Lindeman and that upper left one on Herzog look like they could use a closer, in hand&nbsp;examination.</P><P>&nbsp;</P>

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...and you have hit on one reason behind why I would never purchase a PSA graded card above a 6. Cost is another factor; but not only because it costs too much to purchase a PSA 7 T206 card, but also because the high value is an even bigger incentive to alter these cards.<br /><br />I would like someone to sponsor the SGC Challenge. Have your PSA 7 and higher T206 cards sent in to SGC, and SGC will give you their opinion on ability to cross over. I think it would be interesting to see their responses on cards like these. And I think if I paid mid/high four figures for a common T206 card, I would spring for the nominal fee to see what SGC thought.<br /><br />At some point, the prices are so high, the incentive to alter the cards is so large and PSA's motives are so questionable that it would only make sense to have a card graded by more than one 3d party authenticator.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>t206 (paul),<br />we all listen (and know) your opinion regarding psa vs. sgc.<br /><br />first of all, having a t206 set is quite an acomplishment. congrats again.<br /><br />is your set sgc graded? do you have psa crads in your set?<br /><br />i assume (and yes i am assuming) that you would profit financially if sgc were to overtake psa in market share, especially on t206's. the reason i make this assumption is your constant psa bashing....virtually each and every time this issue comes up. <br /><br />" PSA's motives are so questionable "<br /><br />what is psa's underlying motive? is it any different than sgc?<br /><br />let me say, that i support both companies. <br /><br />i will tell you this, from first hand experience. i have crossed psa cards to sgc....and visa versa.<br />in crossing some psa cards to sgc i received higher grades from sgc than psa. i have never received a higher grades from psa in crossing sgc's cards.<br />how do you explain that?<br /><br />i'm not trying to pick a fight here, paul, but i do think it's about time we learn about what is motivating you to keep the relentless psa bashing going.<br />regards<br />andy becker

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I think it is simply impossible to make an informed judgement on these cards based on scans. Scans are not nearly sharp enough and we cannot see the edges. The constant accusations with little evidence to back them up get tiresome. <br /><br />I am not advocating for one grading company over another. I think the presence of multiple companies helps keep the standards higher for all of them. I personally have cards graded by all three of the major companies and have submitted to all three. I have crossed cards out of PSA holders in the past for the half grade bump and I regret it now. I did bust an SGC 88 E93 Chase out of its holder to submit to PSA. I did this because the rest of my set is in PSA holders and I like the consistency. PSA gave it an 8.<br /><br />THere are a lot of accusations about trimmed high grade cards out there. Mostly the accusations come from people who do not collect these cards. Others come from people with biases towards certain grading companies and probably stand to gain a lot from a market shift. I am sure all of the companies have let a few slip through the cracks, but I seriouly doubt any of them do it intentionally or that it is anywhere near the norm for any of them.<br /><br />JimB<br />

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Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>I know some on here love to bash PSA but i have had several SGC cards come back from PSA as trimmed after i broke them out of SGC holders including a midgrade EX Gandil T206 and a Hanlan Allen and Ginter, and about a half dozen other SGC graded T cards. So I feel they all either make mistakes or disagree on what they feel is alegitimate cut

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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Rather than an SGC challange, why don't people who have high grade PSA T206s crack them out and send them back to PSA. I think those results would be more interesting. I am confident PSA would call a great many of the cards they have previously graded trimmed.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"we all listen (and know) your opinion regarding psa vs. sgc."<br /><br />Yes, I do take the opportunity, don't I? <br /><br />"first of all, having a t206 set is quite an acomplishment. congrats again."<br /><br />Thanks! <br /><br />"is your set sgc graded? do you have psa crads in your set?"<br /><br />50% of my set is SGC graded, and I have about 15 PSA cards in my set that I am waiting to cross over to SGC the next time they come near me.<br /><br />"i assume (and yes i am assuming) that you would profit financially if sgc were to overtake psa in market share, especially on t206's. the reason i make this assumption is your constant psa bashing....virtually each and every time this issue comes up."<br /><br />Well, if my entire collection was in PSA holders, I would be stupid for two reasons for bashing them -- (1) that would not be profitable, true; but, more importantly (2) why would I keep my holders in PSA holders if I disliked the company? I wouldn't, I didn't, and now I don't.<br /><br />"PSA's motives are so questionable. What is psa's underlying motive?"<br /><br />The Harris Collection cards were a big production for PSA. They earned quite a bit of publicity by grading those cards as high as they did. It is only natural to question whether they encapsulated sharp, but trimmed, cards. I am not speaking from experience on the Harris Cards, but I am speaking from experience about crossed over PSA cards graded 5 and 6 that got bounced by SGC as a result of creases and trimming.<br /><br /><br />"is it any different than sgc?"<br /><br />Mmm, no, not in terms of profit making. But I think they are less about turning a fast buck and more about customer satisfaction and consistency. That is my opinion from my experience. <br /><br />"let me say, that i support both companies."<br /><br />That's fair.<br /><br />"i have never received a higher grades from psa in crossing sgc's cards.<br />how do you explain that?"<br /><br />Did you crack them out first? If so, then it would appear that SGC grades less stringently. But that has never been my concern. I am more concerned about consistency, and I know what an SGC 60 will look like when I get a close look at it. I never know whether a PSA 5 will be crease free. I've held too many that aren't.<br /><br />"i'm not trying to pick a fight here, paul, but i do think it's about time we learn about what is motivating you to keep the relentless psa bashing going."<br /><br />I just really dislike the PSA product. I think it is inferior and untrustworthy. I prefer SGC and have most of my best cards and my T206 collection graded by SGC. I would like SGC to take over market share. That would be good for my collection. But it would also be very good for the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>It is my understanding that the Harris Collection cards were accumulated one at a time, sometimes raw and sometimes graded. At the time of the sale, they were all already graded and were were simply relabeled with the provenance for the sale. I have never heard that grades were raised at that point for publicity. When I have questioned people who have made claims about those cards on this forum with regards to their evidence, they have never responded. I think this is a case where an unsubstantiated rumor is snowballing into perceived reality. Sounds like our politicians these days. If people hear a lie enough times, they think it is true. I would love to see any substantive evidence that Harris collection cards were tampered with and/or subsequently knowingly slabbed by PSA. For the record, I do not and never have owned any Harris Collection cards. I just get tired of unsubstantiated rumors being tossed about.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>paul, i respect you opinion.<br />but as many of the other board members have said, the bashing has run it's course.<br /><br />so i will address your post as you did mine....<br /><br />Yes, I do take the opportunity, don't I? <br /><br />yes, you do.....and if you ever had someone tell you the same thing over and over and over and over and over....well i think you get my drift.<br /><br />Well, if my entire collection was in PSA holders, I would be stupid for two reasons for bashing them -- (1) that would not be profitable, true; but, more importantly (2) why would I keep my holders in PSA holders if I disliked the company? I wouldn't, I didn't, and now I don't.<br /><br />i am not questioning your intellengence, i only ask that you stop questioning, by inference, the intellegence of anyone who uses psa.<br /><br />The Harris Collection cards were a big production for PSA. They earned quite a bit of publicity by grading those cards as high as they did. It is only natural to question whether they encapsulated sharp, but trimmed, cards. I am not speaking from experience on the Harris Cards, but I am speaking from experience about crossed over PSA cards graded 5 and 6 that got bounced by SGC as a result of creases and trimming.<br /><br />they were a big production for mastro too, if i recall. did mastro trim the cards you are questioning? did they compensate psa for overlooking said trimmed cards?<br /><br />do you know how the harris collection was compiled?<br /><br />Mmm, no, not in terms of profit making. But I think they are less about turning a fast buck and more about customer satisfaction and consistency. That is my opinion from my experience. <br /><br />again, i appreciate your opinion.<br /><br />Did you crack them out first? If so, then it would appear that SGC grades less stringently. But that has never been my concern. I am more concerned about consistency, and I know what an SGC 60 will look like when I get a close look at it. I never know whether a PSA 5 will be crease free. I've held too many that aren't.<br /><br />yes. and sgc overlooked defects in cards that were psa 4's and graded them sgc 80's. <br />but, if you think consistancy is the key....then perhaps pro is the way to go. they consistantly grade out 9's and 10's <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />I just really dislike the PSA product. I think it is inferior and untrustworthy. I prefer SGC and have most of my best cards and my T206 collection graded by SGC. I would like SGC to take over market share. That would be good for my collection. But it would also be very good for the hobby. <br /><br />we know your opinion. again, i will stand by my statement that your constant psa bashing is motivated by the possiblility that your collection will increase in value should sgc gain more market share.<br /><br />by the way paul, what if the famous cracker jack collection<br />was graded by psa? would you think many of the cards were trimmed and bleached?<br /><br />lastly....paul, why do you collect images of psa's errors? <br />what's the point? <br /><br />and, i'm going to say it again.....i support psa and sgc. i use both services to grade cards. and i find both services to be very good. competition is a good thing. <br />

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>what jimb (hi jim) said is very true, regarding the harris collection. now you know how the collection was compiled and susequently graded (or relabeled).

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I've obviously annoyed you. Sorry about that. But I do think it is my right to question PSA on this Board, at least in a thread questioning high grade PSA cards. <br /><br />By the way, I would not purchase a T206 card graded higher than an SGC 80 either. Sharp cards from 100 years ago, in my opinion, are presumptively trimmed.<br /><br />And I'd save images of SGC screw ups -- but no one seems to have any!

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>That does it for me! No more PSA 9 T206's in my collection from now on!!<br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>david- <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />paul,<br />you certainly have the right to say whatever you want. i just wish you would not slant your posts so much. discuss the cards in question without running the banner ad for sgc.....or anti-psa whatever you want to call it.<br /><br />i agree that high grade vintage cards must be examined, no question. but to say that anything over an sgc 80 is altered is just not accurate. as an sgc proponent, you must realize that.<br />check out the sgc cracker jack set. if you haven't seen it, it will blow your mind. cards look like they were printed yesterday.<br /><br />sorry robert for the thread hijack. <br />to answer your question, i really have to agree with jimb....without at least holding the card, it would be hard to make a judgement as to the cards being altered or not. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Here are my two (or three) cents:<br /><br />Labelling. PSA makes more labelling mistakes than SGC. This is a significant problem that PSA would be wise to cure to improve customer satisfaction and build credibility among prewar collectors.<br /><br />Authentication. Both PSA and SGC do a good job. However, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that SGC once slabbed a T206 Matty Portrait with a RED Hindu back. Anyone who knows this set well knows that this is an impossible front/back combination. SGC eventually determined that the card had been re-backed and corrected the error. But the point is that SGC is NOT perfect. There was a challenge earlier on this thread to point out an SGC mistake. Well, I give you Exhibit A.<br /><br />Grading. Again, both PSA and SGC do a good job, but they have slightly different criteria and different levels of consistency. With regard to consistencty, I generally agree with Paul that SGC is more consistent. But that doesn't mean they are more stringent. In my experience PSA is slightly tougher on corner wear but misses more creases and wrinkles.<br /><br />Scot<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I think what scott says is correct - in my experience, sgc has, at time, gone little easier on corner wear while psa is really lax on creases/wrinkles. I will say that one area where sgc is unquestionably stricter is paperloss. Ive seen psa 4s and 5s with paperloss on the reverse (more than just a spot). Im not sure Ive ever seen a card with paperloss graded higher than a 30 or 40 by sgc.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>As you probably already know I am with Paul on this one. I just look at that high graded PSA Near Set of T206s and so many of the cards pictured are really questionable whether or not they are trimmed. I will end there about that.<br /><br />As to those people that say SGC makes mistakes and yes they do but why are they never posted on this board? Any time I hear of an SGC mistake it seem to get taken care of by SGC at there expense. They even acknowledge that quite afew of there early graded cards have questionable grades but are more than willing to review them.<br /><br />I would not mind seeing a thread of SGC mistake or overgrade with scans. I have a very open mind, but I just don't understand how an experience collector can "buy the holder and not the card".<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"In my experience PSA is slightly tougher on corner wear but misses more creases and wrinkles."<br /><br />"[I]n my experience, sgc has, at time, gone little easier on corner wear while psa is really lax on creases/wrinkles."<br /><br />My experience exactly. I love SGC 60's. If I could have an entire T206 collection of SGC 60's I would be thrilled. Many of the PSA 5's and 6's that I wanted to cross over to SGC 60's wouldn't cross, however, because of creases and wrinkles. I have, however, had PSA 4 cards with mildly rounded corners cross over to SGC 60's, because they are crease free and otherwise clean. That's my idea of "Excellent" -- moderate corner wear, no creases. <br /><br /><br />"I will say that one area where sgc is unquestionably stricter is paperloss."<br /><br />Yes. And, with respect to caramel cards, front chipping/peeling. I don't have any PSA experience in caramel cards, but a couple of my GAI caramels that were GAI 2.5 or GAI 3, will not cross over to even an SGC 30 because of chipping/peeling.<br /><br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"That does it for me! No more PSA 9 T206's in my collection from now on!!"<br /><br />Collect all the high grade T206 cards you want. But if you think that there are not a statistically significant number of shaved or otherwise trimmed high graded T206 cards sitting in slabs you're just wrong about that.<br /><br />When I first started posting on this Board three or four years ago, there were countless posts about dealers who used to purchase oversized T206 cards in the 1980's when PSA just started grading cards. The reason? Because you could trim down an oversized T206 cards to the proper dimensions, virtually undetectable. <br /><br />The information I learned on this board years ago before I began investing thousands of dollars into vintage cards caused me to want to collect hundreds of SGC 40's 50's and 60's, rather than 10 to 20 SGC 80's and higher. Cards with light corner wear, evenly distributed on each of the four corners, give me a tremendous amount of comfort that a card has not been altered so as to fit it into a slab and sell it for thousands of dollars. <br /><br />When I see a PSA/SGC/GAI 7 or higher T206 card, I can't help but wonder if it is one of those well done hack jobs. That is a concern that I'd rather not have to deal with every time I would hand over thousands of dollars for a high grade Unglaub card.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I do not really understand what the difference is between an oversized t206 which was trimmed so skillfully that no one can be sure that it was trimmed, and an original, properly sized card of the same grade and conditrion.<br /><br />It must be some puritan viewpoint in play here. But to me, if no difference is detectable, no difference exists.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"It must be some puritan viewpoint in play here. But to me, if no difference is detectable, no difference exists."<br /><br />I didn't mean that a card was trimmed so that no expert in the world could now or would never be able to identify it, which would, I agree, be totally undetectable forever. I meant that PSA didn't detect it under their grading standards in 1989, but that either they, or SGC or GAI or some other respected expert would now see the evidence.<br /><br />But in any event, baseball cards are a puritanical enterprise. Cards are graded and valued based on purity. And a mint card is mint based not only on visible condition but also perceived condition. How many of us would debate the relative merits of a PSA 7 vs. a PSA 9 T206 card? Would any small group of experts ever agree unanimously? It is all about the perception of the grader or grading company.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>FYI, PSA was very strict on trimming right from the start (1991) in my opinion. One of the reasons they started at all was that so many people were altering cards by trimming and other methods. I have never trimmed a card or knowingly bought a trimmed card. But when PSA first started, about half of the high-grade (ex/mt or better) cards that I submitted were returned as evidence of trimming or minimum size req. Thus, my personal experience tells me that they were far from making it a reqular practice to grade trimmed cards. I have since learned a lot more about how to detect trimmed cards and to avoid the kinds of mistakes I made back in those days. I used to be a lot more trusting and didn't really think to suspect about trimming back in the '80's.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>What are some of the telltale signs that a card is trimmed? <br /><br />I have seen quite a few T206s that measure the "right" size but I have a hunch they are trimmed. <br /><br />Thanks!<br />Sean

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>It seems to me that trimming has gotten a bad name, in part because of the fact that sellers "formerly" trimmed cards to make them appear to be of a higher grade. But not all cards are trimmed to decieve. Those which have been trimmed for causes other than deception, can be attractive due to the fact that their trimming is a part of the card's history.<br /><br />Examples of this include cards on which the advertising has been cut off, cards which were hand cut, and the original owner felt that borders were unnecessary or unattractive, and countless other non-deceptive instances.<br /><br />But a card which has been trimmed to decieve has that negative associated with it's history.<br /><br />I have (at least) one of these. And I am quite happy with it. It is a card with two bottom vg/ex corners and two top ex+ corners. Clearly this was an oversize card which was trimmed to exact specs, and two sharp corners. It was sold as a vg/ex card. If I really want the corners to match, I can rough up the sharp ones a little and still have a vg/ex card. But I don't. It is a bit of a conversation piece as it is. And corner sharpness is the least of my concerns with the majority of the cards which I buy.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Sean,<br />This is not an exhaustive list, but some telltale signs are:<br /><br />1. swurving uneven cuts.<br />2. bat ears on the corners<br />3. a tilt cut on one side that is not identical on the other (this is not necessarily a sign on 19th century items).<br />4. obviously uneven wear on corners (e.g. 2 vg corners and 2 nm corners)<br />5. undersized<br />6. if it is unslabbed look at the edges. If the toning on the edges is uneven, it is suspect, especially if the lighter edge has other indicators. If all the edges have been exposed for 95 years, they should have roughly even toning. If one is particularly light, it may not have been exposed to the elements for as long (i.e. was trimmed).<br />7. irregularities in the edges.<br />8. card is in a PRO holder. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I'm sure others will have more to add, but this is a starter.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>Jim,<br />I knew about the PRO holder thing <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I guess the other things are common sense, but they help!<br /><br />Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>PSA was not around in the 1980s if you are going to bash someone for mistakes you should at least get your facts straight.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>You may be right, but I do recall the very first time I saw a PSA graded card. It was a 1988 Score Roberto Alomar card that was selling for hundreds of dollars. I wanted to know why, and it was explained to me that it was a PSA 10. That was my introduction into the world of graded cards. <br /><br />Now, I believe this would have been at a card show before I went off to college in 1991. And I am certain that I have read stories about how PSA grading began in 1986-1988. Those are the stories that I was relaying. But, again, I could be wrong.<br /><br />And more importantly, I was sharing with you the stories that I read when I first came onto this Board several years ago. Those stories, regardless of the year in which the facts portrayed (rightly or wrongly), gave me considerable pause before I ventured into the world of high grade T206 cards. If you do not want to consider them as true, that is your choice. And if you'd prefer that I stick to my own personal experiences with PSA, I could do that, too (and have). <br /><br />But really, I was just explaining how the more I read on this Board, the more it made me uncomfortable with PSA. That is all.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>this board favors sgc....no doubt about that. <br /><br />shouldn't you make your own conclusions from your own experiences? or is everything written on the forum true beyond a reasonable doubt?<br /><br />most of the debating regarding trimmed cards in psa holders was focused around the psa 8 wagner....which we all know was cut down at one time. <br /><br />psa is not the reason dealers/collectors started trimming cards, just the opposite, when the hobby really exploded in the early 1980's altering cards was becoming very popular. and collectors coming into the market place were being taken advantage of. <br /><br />also paul, how do you explain the t206's that are sgc 84 or 88 or 92? did those slip past the graders at sgc?? <br /><br />and that being said, there is more than t206 in our collecting world. isn't there? what about the high sgc graded caramels, cracker jacks, goudeys? how do you explain those grades? <br /><br />or are all high grade prewar cards altered?<br /><br />lastly, i have handled a lot of graded prewar cards from both companies. certainly some faults have been missed by psa, but in general (99%), a psa 5 does not have a crease or wrinkle.<br /><br />how are our experiences so different?

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Andy,<br /><br />As far as psa's grading standards, Im going to have to disagree somewhat with your 99% statement. Ive seen plenty of psa 4s and 5s with wrinkling. Wrinkles, however, can be easily missed. Even worse, I just won a number of caramel cards from the mastro auction. Of those cards, there were at least 10 or more psa 3s, 4s and 5s with paperloss on the reverse. Regardless of how nice the front of a card looks, how does a card with paperloss get graded a 4 or 5?

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>josh,<br />i (obviously) would agree that a card with paper loss cannot grade higher than a 2....at the most. <br /><br />but my 99% statement was regarding psa 5's. i have not seen many (none that i recall) with a crease or wrinkle.<br />i have seen many nicer 4's (nicer, being overall presentation) that do have wrinkles/light creases. <br /><br />imo, psa doesn't give a 5 to a card with a wrinkle or crease.<br />in my experience, a psa 4 can have a crease/wrinkle.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>In one of my earlier posts, I stated as follows: "The information I learned on this board years ago before I began investing thousands of dollars into vintage cards caused me to want to collect hundreds of SGC 40's 50's and 60's, rather than 10 to 20 SGC 80's and higher. Cards with light corner wear, evenly distributed on each of the four corners, give me a tremendous amount of comfort that a card has not been altered so as to fit it into a slab and sell it for thousands of dollars. <br /><br />When I see a PSA/SGC/GAI 7 or higher T206 card, I can't help but wonder if it is one of those well done hack jobs. That is a concern that I'd rather not have to deal with every time I would hand over thousands of dollars for a high grade Unglaub card."<br /><br />This shows that I will stay away from high graded SGC cards, too.<br /><br />That being said -- my original graded T206 collection was PSA graded. I had 40 PSA graded T206 cards before crossing them over to SGC. They are still on the PSA set registry, by the way. They were in grades ranging from 3 to 6. When I decided that I did not want PSA to be handling my cards anymore, I brought them all to the Hofstra show last year. SGC was only able to cross 30 of the 40 cards over. Of the 10 remaning, 1 had evidence of trimming (which I always suspected) and the other 9 were overgraded because of creasing -- in some instances, I had not noticed the creasing until SGC circled the plastic baggy holding the card around where the crease was. <br /><br />One of my favorite cards was a PSA 6 Hal Chase. That one came back as could not even grade a 5 because of a corner crease that I had never noticed (or perhaps had ignored). Also, the more recent PSA 5's I bought on ebay were among those represented in the can't crossover list. <br /><br />It is my theory that there are tons of these PSA cards floating around with problems that just get dumped on ebay because no one is going to be stupid enough to cross over a card and get a lesser grade when so much money is at stake. If PSA had a policy of purchasing these cards back, then there would not be much risk. But alas, only SGC has that policy. That is why you will perpetually see more mistakes residing in PSA holders than in SGC holders. That is, of course, my opinion based on my own experiences.<br /><br />Edited to add that I have never seen an SGC 60 with a crease -- and I have quite a few of them. <br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I was wondering when we'd get another one of these going...<br /><br />Everyone makes mistakes, guys. No benefit to be gained railing about it. <br /><br />I do not for a minute think that the current management at either PSA knowingly mandates that they grade trimmed cards just to create high end registry items. However, I happen to side with the folks who believe that 100 year old cards are not likely to remain in existence in nm and better conditions. Maybe they do, but I think it more likely than not that they had a little help from their "friends". I just doubt the ability of PSA to catch those cards. For that matter, I don't think any of the services are particularly good at it. Altering cards is an art; catching it is too. There is room for artistic interpretation either way. <br /><br />I own exactly one high grade prewar baseball card, an SGC 80 T206 Waddell portrait. I don't "care" about the grade; I'd rather have a 4 for my collection so it fits in, but the clarity of the portrait is the finest I've ever seen on a T206. The blue, the red, just mesmerising. <br /><br />As far as which service to use, everyone has their preferences. I prefer SGC for a variety of reasons: better holders, better service, nicer looking displays, and what I feel is better care in grading older and/or obscure issues. If I was solely looking for the resale bucks on high end mainstream cards I would likely send my cards to PSA simply because of the registry bugs. If someone has $30,000+ to spend on a $2,000 set, hey, free country.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p>Is your Waddell as nice as this one???<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1146687663.JPG"> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I don't think anyone questions the fact that there are some trimmed cards in the holders of every grading company, but to assume that anything graded 6 or better has been altered is simply not true. There have been multiple "finds" of pristine T206's over the past 30 years, most notably the "Southern Find" in the early 90's in Kentucky.(Even though Kentucky isn't in the South.)There have also been several in the Baltimore area, as well as in Richmond and Charlotte. The Waddell came from Richmond....

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Dont forget all the "grandpa's attic" finds as well <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Josh,<br /> Those attic finds are fakes, not trimmed........ except the Wagners, of course they are real.... Good luck at the yard sales. Brian

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Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>Just for the record straight from the PSA website they began grading in 1991. The only companies i remeber in the 1980s were Hager 's poorly graded cards and SBC started by one of the principles who started but has long ago left SGC.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I've read this entire thread and the one thing that bothered me was that Brian said "Kentucky isn't in the South." Huh???? Just because Lincoln was able to impose a form of marital law and coercion to keep them from joining the Confederacy doesn't mean it is not in the South. Geographically it may be further north than Tennessee or Arkansas but politically, socially and culturally it is a Southern state and almost all Kentuckians would blanche if considered to be "northerners."

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Bob,<br /> I didn't call them "Northerners", not that there's anything wrong with that. But, Kentucky and West Virginia have always struck me as border states that fall in the Mid- Atlantic category. I doubt many collectors would guess that the great "Southern Find" was found in Kentucky. <br /><br /> Hi Bob,<br /> Arkansas is in the South???? Yeah, I guess it has to be because the West begins in Fort Worth.<br /> <br /> Be well Brian from here in here in the Piedmont of "North Carolina"

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thats funny--I have 155 T206 PSA 8s and not one of them is trimmed! Of course I bought them all from David Vargha.<br /><br />Also some pretty savvy collectors are paying over $5,000 for pop 1-2 psa 8 commons and routinely over $2,000 for the higher pop cards. I never see any psa 8s go cheap.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>:P)

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Yup, Arkansas, a member of the Confederacy, still has the 13 stars on the state flag although we don't use the Rebel battle flag (the stars and bars)like Mississippi (and tell me again how they get Back athletes to play there???) Actually I live in NW Arkansas which borders Missouri and Oklahoma and my home is on the Ark-Okla line so we are more "southwest" than "pure south" like eastern and southern Arkansas with their deltas and bordering on Louisiana and Mississippi. We are more progressive and our accent is a little less of the southern drawl.

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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1955-TOPPS-121-RENNA-PSA-8-AS_W0QQitemZ8802096765QQcategoryZ55917QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem" target="_blank">55 Topps psa 8</a>

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Posted By: <b>John Barnes</b><p>Tbob, where do you hail from ? I'm just north of you in Springfield, MO.<br />John