The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Muchinsky</b><p>Since I have been a member of the network for almost a full 48 hours now, I figured it was about time to stir up a little controversy. [Don't ask me how long it took me to figure how to start a new post versus keep adding to my first post.] How do the network members feel about the grading of pins? No sooner did my book come out where I boldly said, "unlike cards, pins are not formally graded and slabbed" (or something like that), do I spot my first slabbed and graded pin. Regarding the patently false mis-statement in my book, to quote Curley of The Three Stooges, "I was a victim of soycumstance" (I then get slapped by Moe). Want to talk about this? Good, bad, long overdue?

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I like the look of pinbacks in holders...don't care for the grading aspect.

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>dan</b><p>anyone who is an advanced pinback button collector knows all about the condition of pins like foxing(staining),cracking to front of celluloid,and the toning that happens to certain sets like diamond gum,and cameo pepsin also i believe that normal surface scratches and the absence of the paper back has nothing to do with the value of the pin with most pins although i would rather have no scratches and the back paper. so we don't need a grading company that deals mainly in cards to tell us what are pins are worth unless we want to create the same situation that exist today with cards going unsold unless they have beengraded and slabed. lets hope the majority of true old pinback collectors will not give into this grading gameso we can buy sell trade wiyhout some so called experts stamp of approval. Dan

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>I do NOT like the look of pinbacks in holders. I agree with the previous post with regard to the collector base understanding of condition. Cards are far more difficult to grade, in far greater supply, and reproduced at a higher rate than pinbacks. The lack of demand for pinback grading by the investors delving into cards will keep this from becoming the trend it has in cards. <br />Pinback collectors, like pennant, trophy, jersey, and advertising piece collectors aren't as driven by grade because so many items are nearly impossible to buy in any condition, that condition is less important (within reason of course). Think about how small the population reports for some pinbacks would be. There are dozens, if not a 100 pinbacks that are more scarce than a t206 Wagner.

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Greg Theberge</b><p>Hi Paul and welcome to the board. Since you asked the question...<br /><br />While I've been collecting sports memorabilia for only about five years now, I've collected old brewery advertising for over thirty.<br /><br />I initially wrote something a bit longer than this, then cut it down in size.<br /><br />I don't like putting antiques in plastic slabs, nor do I understand why people need to focus on minute grading conditions despite inflated "rarity". I also don't get why people have to have the highest grade sets of something. Personally, I think the whole practice is ridiculous. <br /><br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />Greg

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>I consider myself to be a serious pin collector and even as cards go I have never felt the need to have any of my pins graded. I have never felt the need to have a 3rd party come in and tell me that the pin I have is a 1 or a 10. I also believe in these grading companies that there arenot even a hand full of individuals that are even remotely qualified to grade pins.These items are in so much less quantity out there that in many cases the amount of a perticular pin may only be 5-10 items at best for that given pin. Paul and I have talked about this subject at great length which is the cost of a pin. I.E. will grade determine the price of the pin? Will a price guide determine the cost of a pin? I believe in most cases no. Many of us who have bought pins or looked for pins know if a pin comes on to the market and it is (lets say) one you have looked for for a long time to finish a set or team run or for what ever reason its wanted, the price of the pin IMO willnot be determined by a grade. It will be determined by need. Many of us know we may not see another pin of that perticular set surface again for maybe years. Or never again for that matter. In pins I believe the price will always be set by the old method supply and demand not by grade.

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I'd like to clarify that I do not like the professional grading aspect of pinbacks (I also don't like it for cards, but that's a discussion for the other side of the forum). I do however like the look of pinbacks in holders. I also like the look of pinbacks grouped together in glass cases. I don't like the looks of pinbacks in coin flips or plastic sheets. <br /><br />

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Count me among those that have never had a pinback graded. I just don't care for the slabs, they remind of coin collecting, and I never collected coins. <br /><br />Paul, good to see you here in our little neighborhood. <br />-Rhett<br /><br />some of my pinbacks can be seen on my website: <br /><a href="http://www.starsofthediamond.com/pins.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.starsofthediamond.com/pins.html</a>

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Muchinsky</b><p>Since I posed the question, I'll offer my opinion. Like most things in life, I think the point of grading pins (accurately) is more complex than may initially appear. As you have figured out by now, I give long-winded answers to questions. If this turns you off, invoke the trick my students learned long ago---pay attention to only every third word I say.<br /><br />I'll give the punchline first. I'm opposed to pingrading. Many of the key reasons have already been expressed. Who is qualified to render such judgments, the inherent scarcity of the objects being graded, and the inevitable difference of opinion about subjective opinions of quality. However, that having been said, in "a perfect world" (a term professors like to use) I think the accurate grading of pins (if it were even possible) could be extraordinarily valuable to the hobby and hobbyists. Several members of the board have thanked me for providing a "reference" on pins. Indeed, that is why I wrote the book. But I feel an equally valuable reference would be a book on grading. I would want every pin graded on two scales.<br /><br />1. "The apples to apples scale". This is the one that is used now in grading coins (and I presume cards). On a scale of 1 to 10, or if you don't like decimal points, 1 to 100, where 100 is absolute perfection (color, centering, crispness, no dings or scratches, etc.), what is this pin's (absolute) grade?<br /><br />2. "The apples to oranges scale". The first scale is an absolute scale, and this one would be a relative scale. This would involve the grader knowing what the finest specimen of a particular pin is. So this particular specimen, relative to the finest known specimen, is what grade? Due to wide within-manufacturing differences (i.e., a first-class professional pin making company as Whitehead and Hoag vs. a local metal works shop--where the PM10s were all made) you will get differences in quality. Plus we also have an across-manufacturing difference: celluloid vs. lithograph. Lithograph pins are made from applying a coat of paint to a round metal disk. After the paint drys, the image in ink is applied to the paint. After the ink drys, the flat disk is put into a press to create the curl, then a springpin is placed in the back of the pin. Given this extremely different (and less-refined, but cheaper) technology, the resulting difference in quality is obvious. Remember, these pins were not made to go into human time capsules (the collections of hobbyists). They were made to be worn, used, and probably discarded. It is only because all pins were not discarded that we have something to collect.<br /><br />Let's say the finest lithograph pin ever made (on the absolute scale) is an 80. There is no way possible a "flawless" lithograph pin gets the same grade as a "flawless" celluloid pin. Impossible. The manufacturing technology of lithograph pins (ink on paint) can't match celluloid pins (ink on paper) for quality. So let's say we have before us a really high-condition lithograph pin. It gets an absolute grade of 75. My point is, is this a 75 compared to a 100, or a 75 compared to an 80? My answer is BOTH grades are valuable to the hobbyist. It is here that the grading of pins, for the purpose of advancing and sharing our collective knowledge of our hobby, would be extremely valuable.<br /><br />Finally, I will offer this. It is not about grading pins, but about human judgment of quality. Sorry to say it, but there is "psychology" at work in grading. I'm not talking about the "politics" of grading, but the human judgment process. Consider this. Next month is the most famous dog show in the country, nationally broadcast, over 100 years in existence, the biggest and the best. The purpose of the show is to ascertain (and award) quality among the submitted entries. In order for your pup to even be accepted for judging at this show, it must have won some local and regional judging contests. I'm not a dog guy, but based upon the statements by the commentators, I believe there are something like 140 "breeds" of dogs. A cocker spaniel, for example, would be one such breed. About 200 dogs are entered in each breed. The judge (grader) of the breed (e.g., cocker spaniel) picks the highest graded dog within that breed to advance to the next round of competition, "Best in Group", the winners of all the "Best in Breed" judgings. There are 7 groups: The Herding Group; The Hunting Group, and 5 others. Now we have 7 new judges. These judges have to know all the breeds within the group, and comparing apples to oranges, judges the "Best in Group". How many breeds make up a group? It varies by group, but around 20 would be a safe answer. Now it gets real dicey--the point of this whole affair, the winner of the "Best in Show". This is the judged competition among the seven "Best in Group" winners. This (one)judge has to know the breeding standards for all 140 breeds, because you never know which breed will emerge as the winner of the Group competition. We have now advanced in the complexity of making judgments from "apples to apples", "apples to oranges", to finally "apples to orangatans". I don't know how the "Best in Show" judge does it, but he/she has to pick the "best dog" out of about 2,800 dogs that arrived for the show (about 140 breeds, 200 dogs per breed, 7 groups, 1 "Best in Show"). Follow the math: 2,800 to 140 to 7 to 1.<br /><br />If we accept on face value (which we must) that the dogs are graded on quality or condition, every breed should have an equal shot at being selected "Best in Show". The results don't back that up. Not only have some BREED winners never been selected "Best in Show" (and the number of years the dog show has been in existence is close to the number of breeds), some GROUP winners have never been selected "Best in Show". What breeds typically (and by "typically" I mean far more than the others) win "Best In Show"? I believe the records indicate poodles and spaniels have won "Best in Show" most often. What's with these breeds? Are they "genetically superior" to all other breeds? Or are they simply the warm, cuddly dogs that curl up on people's laps and provide enjoyment to the owner? I can't answer this because I'm not a dog expert, but if we throw out the argument of "genetic superiority" (and remember, show dogs, like race horses, are bred to do their respective things--win competitions), something else, something more is going on inside the judge's head than pure ratings of quality or condition. Simply put, judges or graders are also human, and like all humans, we have our likes and dislikes, as objective as we might try to be.<br /><br />Back to grading pins. Do you think we have our own "poodles" and "cocker spaniels" in our hobby? I do. They get to be favorites because of eye appeal or some other factor. A member of the board asked me if I had a "favorite" pin. I sure do, and I said what it was. If judges/graders are truly grading quality or condition, there should be no "favorites". But to have favorites is to be human, and despite some people I have met at the National, I think we are all human. How do you starch the human element out of grading? I have read coin graders have entertained grading by computers. Not quite sure how that would work, but it sure wouldn't address the "relative grade". <br /><br />On a totally unrelated matter, I read most hobbyists who left coin collecting did so because of grading. Condition is a determinant of cost, and now grading puts an exclamation point after the cost of a hobby instead of the fun of a hobby. As long as there is money, especially big money involved, and condition is a determinant of value (cost), grading will be here to stay. Despite my belief that a reference on grading would be of great value to our hobby, I hope grading does not make serious in-roads in our hobby.<br /><br />Test on Monday.<br /><br />Paul <br />

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Professional grading attracts investors. I don't like investors invading my hobbies. They only serve to drive prices up making it harder to obtain the items that I want.

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>Paul, That is precisely the type of well thought out post we love and appreciate. Thank you. <br /> <br />On an unrelated note, do you have duplicate pins available for purchase?

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Muchinsky</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />Thank you. Sometimes I fear my "lectures" may be regarded as "sermons". I'm not trying to be preachy, but I feel it is benficial to have an open exchange about an opinion, even if the end result is to reject the opinion. [See, I can write short posts].<br /><br />Paul

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>mike rothstein</b><p>I'm not excited about grading - it could only lead to the discontent that people experience with cards - the realm of the superbly subjective.<br /><br />Now authenticating - and providing that opinion - is a different matter.<br /><br />For people who are not sure about something - this can provide peace of mind and some form of consumer protection for the new collector.

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Phil Garry</b><p>I currently have eight baseball pins and they are all graded because they are part of my HOF Collection which consists of cards, postcards, pins and currency and every piece is graded. I do this more for authenticity and preservation than numerical grades as most of my collection falls into the low-mid grade category. My three favorite baseball pins are all team photo pins:<br /><br />1896 Paterson, NJ Minor League Team w/Honus Wagner & Ed Barrow<br /><br />1896 Baltimore Orioles w/Ned Hanlon, Wilbert Robinson, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, John McGraw & Hugh Jennings<br /><br />1902 Pittsburgh Pirates w/Honus Wagner, Fred Clarke & Jack Chesbro<br /><br />Scans of these three pins can be found on my website:<br /><br /><a href="http://bbhofrc.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://bbhofrc.com/</a><br /><br />

The grading of pins
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Muchinsky</b><p>Mike H.<br /><br />I have a few duplicates, some acquired accidentally thinking I didn't already have it when I did (no, this would not apply to the 6" pin on the back of my book), a few I picked up as upgrades, and a few I got just because I thought they were very nice, tradeable/lookatable. I do not buy specifically to resell. Tell me what you like, and maybe I got some/it.<br /><br />Paul