T206 Wagner Given Away for Free...to fill a hole of course.
 

I know not many members read all of the threads especially the early hobby ones. That said I would like others opinions to see if they read that letter, posted in the ACC thread, the way I did? IS Burdick thanking Wagner for giving him a T206 Wagner because he still needed it in his collection, just to fill a hole? And I believe Burdick is sending a few stamps (as they used stamps for currency back then, sometimes)? If that is the case, I think that is worthy of pointing out.... unless I am wrong? :eek:
Here is the first page and it's technically the 2nd paragraph

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[IMG]http://luckeycards.com/ccbbannouncebur1z.jpg[/IMG]

That's amazing! I heard that Wagner at one point had two Wagners, one of which I assume Wagner talking about here. John Wagner and John Wagner:) once met at a game and Wagner told Wagner that the Wagner card was so rare because of Wagner's disapproval of selling Wagner cards to kids via tobacco, and that is the main point of evidence as to the reason for the Wagner's rarity.

A nice even 10 Wagners in that paragraph:rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing,

Owen

I'm going to say yes. I bet Burdick didn't want to write "Wagner" in a letter to "Wagner" so he came up with a different way of talking about the "Holy Grail."

If you are referring to his reference to "Pontifical Standard," he is probably referring to these cards. The are called either "Pontifical Flags" or "Pontifical Standards," as a standard is a flag that represents a military unit. These cards are from I believe c. 1870 or so, and represent the Papal military units. I, too, could be wrong.

Had he not mentioned the specific set (521 = T206 at the time) I would tend to agree.

No, I don't think Burdick is referring to the T206 Wagner when he says "Pontifical Standard" here. At first glance, the wording of that sentence does seem to suggest that the "Pontifical Standard" is included in the "wants in the #521 set", but it could also be referring to two separate elements of the four cards that Wagner had sent to Burdick -- one or more cards from #521 (T206), and also a Pontifical Standard card from another set.

That interpretation is made more likely by the fact that "Pontifical Standard" had a specific meaning -- in the late 1800s, it referred to the flag of the Pontifical States, or what we today know as the Vatican. There were numerous tobacco card sets of national flags in the 1880s, several of which included the Pontifical States flag, and I assume that Burdick is referring to one of these. I haven't been able to find one that's explicitly labeled "Pontifical Standard", but the N195 Kimball National Flags set includes a card labeled "Pontifical States" -- #9 at the following link:

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N195/go.html

That flag also appeared on a card (which I have) in N126 Duke Rulers, Flags, Arms of All Nations set, though there it's labeled "Flag of Papal States" (#35 at this link:)

http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~dan/N126/go.html

It wouldn't make sense for Burdick to refer to the T206 Wagner as the "Pontifical Standard", even if the card was as well-known in 1939 as it later became. "Pontifical" means "having to do with the Pope".

Also, as I pointed out in a post last week, Burdick thanked John D. Wagner in the October 1, 1948 for donating a T206 Wagner to the collection that Burdick was giving to the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240887

If that 1939 letter referred to the T206 Wagner, it would imply that Burdick had a Wagner but then traded or sold it before 1948. But I don't see any evidence of that in Burdick's voluminous writings from that period, though there are some mentions of how rare the Wagner was, including in the October 1, 1948 article linked to above.

Is there a jump to conclusion that this letter is to Honus or could it possibly be some other collector named Wagner?

Rob M

No, the letter is written to John D. Wagner, a prominent early collector whose correspondence Leon has (including the posted letter). John D. Wagner did meet Honus Wagner on August 12, 1941, as he reported in the October 1, 1941 Card Collector's Bulletin:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...1/IMG_8306.jpg

I still think he possibly is talking about a T206. If not then why did he say he had only seen one other? Is he talking about one other flag card, I doubt it? But your last point is salient too.....but there is also a chance Burdick did in fact help another collector out and give away the one that had been given to him.

I don't see why he couldn't be talking about some obscure set of flag cards that included one of the Pontifical Standard. Not necessarily the N195s that I mentioned, but something more obscure. I'll have to look at the Forbes and Mitchell book on American tobacco cards when I get home to see if there's anything that might fit the bill. I agree that Burdick's language is ambiguous, but in context I don't think the Pontifical Standards card he mentions is a T206.

I, too, read it that he was sent 4 random cards and at least one was a t206 and one was a card he referred to as "Pontifical Standard" but this isn't the t206 card. Look at the letter and he is straight forward and doesn't allude to things. Also he only capitalized the proper names in the letter. If he was alluding to a certain player in the "t206" set I believe he would have used lower case for the phrase.

Keep in mind that John D. Wagner specialized in baseball cards. See collector No. 12 on Burdick's list, attached ("Specializing in Baseball Subjects"). He is also listed as a "General Collector," but I think the fact that Wagner specialized in baseball cards is additional evidence that what Burdick was writing about was referring to the T206 Wagner.

It's true that Wagner specialized in baseball cards, but that's not all he collected, not by a long shot. See his bio in the Card Collectors' Hall of Fame that I posted recently:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240459

Especially this part:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...%206-14-17.jpg

The fact that Wagner was especially interested in military cards makes it unsurprising that he would have had a scarce card of the "Pontifical Standard", or a military flag of the Papal/Pontifical States. And again, it wouldn't make any sense for Burdick to refer to a T206 Wagner by that name, which refers to a specific kind of flag.

Neat clipping - reminds me of Leon replacing the collection he sold.... :)

I'm certain it's not Honus. The content of the letter tells of a collector with knowledge of various card issues. Just a coincidence to have the same last name and mention of #521 in my opinion. This is what I believe is in reference to.



Attachment 276633

Richard --

I had thought of N9s, but didn't think any of them were rare enough that Burdick wouldn't have it. I didn't realize how many variations there are in that set until I looked it up in Forbes and Mitchell just now. I have the "Papal Standard" one among my 40 N9s, which I gather is the more common one. I assume the "Pontifical States" variant was the one that Wagner sent to Burdick, who mixed up/merged the two titles in his letter.

Game, set, match

I like this quote

"Here's the dope on what he has in small cards"

Hard to believe that was used in 1939