Top Graders' Compensation
 

When I spare a thought for the hobby, which is most of the time these days, I often muse about what it must be like to be a top senior grader at one of the TPG houses. I wonder what it would be like to make the grading call on a T206
green Cobby between 6.5 and 7, or a '52 Topps Mays between 7.5 and 8, knowing full- well how much money my decisions mean. I wonder if they feel real pressure, like I would, or is it just another day at the office? Because they are well-known in collectors circles and have almost some kind of star quality, I have to believe they are highly compensated, with some kind of bonus scheme on top of a nice base salary. And maybe the package would include a free trip to the eye doctor every six months. Love to know.

How many PSA card graders can you name?

I doubt they care... at all.

Magoo
 

Sometimes I think the eye doctor appointments were rescheduled instead of being fastidiously attended.

Not all cards of course, but just the wrong ones :D

I bet it's really boring. The highlight of your day probably is some weird regional issue that requires some research to figure out just what it is. And the green Cobbys and 53 Mays' are probably few and far between. I suspect that they spend most of their time looking at Noah Syndergard pre-rookie inserts, Ken Griffey Jr. 1990 Topps cards, and the like.

Maybe I'm really naive, but I assumed with so much money at stake it would be a little more scientific than just the eye test. Something similar to Beckett: a list of categories (corners, edges, centering, focus, surface, etc.) would each get a grade, performed by hi-res computer analysis where applicable, then you work a total number based on the subs. Just eyeballing and using micrometers or something similar sounds like what they'd do in the 1980's.

Peter, outside of Joe Orlando, who I know slightly, I couldn't give you the name of anybody who works at PSA. I bet the burnout rate for the graders is sky high. I wonder when they go blind if they receive Worker's Comp.

John same here although I know of Reza, my point is I don't think these guys are celebs as you suggested, I think they toil anonymously.

You are probably right. There can't be much glamor sitting at your cubicle mindlessly looking at cards of birds or something similar. I do recall that when Steve Rocci was head of PSA any real star card about to receive a high grade was automatically reviewed by 2 other graders for agreement. Don't know if that is still the case. Always thought Mike Baker was very solid and perhaps regrets being part of the GAI saga.

I know it's been discussed before but I don't understand why a computer program can't be used to determine a grade. You would think it wouldn't be that hard to set up a system that could determine a grade without the subjectivity of a grader having a bad day, hungover, knowing high rolling collectors etc. The current system is fraught with opportunities for abuse and fraud.

That'll become standard practice within the next decade. I don't know of any job (including architect, novelist, surgeon, scientist) that can't be replaced by better-performing computers within the century. Grading a card is child's play.

Eyeballing...I'll take the eyeballing...
 

..http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ENTEMC_NEW.JPG


...1980's Eyeballing vs. "based on the subs"....granted, this may be an extreme example ; nothing against Beckett ; I think they're great ; just so you're aware going in how they do things there...

..

...

We used to just call that mint condition.

I have thought about this a lot over the past couple years. Of course, I am not saying it happens, nor do I know their internal submission/grading SOP well enough to know how hard it would be to execute. However, in theory, a few graders in cahoots with a few submitters could make 6, even 7 figure profits by buying and bumping 8s to 9s, 9s to 10s, etc. At those higher levels, the increase in value is nearly exponential. Doubt there's anyway a TPG could ever compensate its graders well enough to offset the temptation of potential monies earned through a scam like this.

I'd hope their chain of custody on any submissions (regardless of the submitters) is totally anonymous and that any card that receives a 10 would need to pass inspection by several graders, thus making this scam more difficult to execute.

That's probably doubly dangerous. They are not held accountable for grade differences that can make thousands of dollars difference, though I have always believed it's a rigged game.

I often wonder why obviously extremely low graded 50's commons exist. Doesn't make any financial sense. Maybe, just maybe, those are submitted with a group as a tell of who submitted. As example

Submitter: hey billy bob, I just sent a group of 50's in. You can tell which ones are mine because there is a dog eared paper missing 51 bowman paul Richards in there.
Grader: thanks slick. If I keep the grades up a full point, can I get the trip to Hawaii and the 5k?
Submitter: you bet. Just nothing below 7.5.
Grader: you re the best!

No knowledge, no smoking gun, just conjecture.

Mark Medlin

They probably go into the eye doctor's office looking for a bump. "I'm at 19.5/20, but i think my vision is better than what the original optometrist said, so I have a shot at 20/20."

here is PSA official documented way of handling your Card submissions

from receipt to ship word for word
at least you know how they set out to provide their services

The receiving step is one of the most crucial steps in the PSA process. This is where all packages are logged in and separated based on their service level. Once the packages have been separated, each package is opened in priority of service and the cards are counted. After verifying the service level and payment, one of the most important steps in the grading process occurs.

The submissions are now assigned a generic order number, removing the identifying information from the order – thus removing the potential for bias. Finally, all of the pertinent data is entered from the PSA submission form, an e-mail confirmation is sent to you and your cards are off to the next stage.

The Sticker Stage

The next step in the PSA process is called the Sticker Stage. At this stage, the cards are counted again and labels are placed on the outside of each card saver. The label or sticker assigned to each card contains information including the order number and individual certification number – that is the same certification number that will appear on the PSA label once the card is graded.

Once this occurs, the history of that card will be stored in our database as it travels through the process and is eventually assigned a grade. Finally, the information on the stickers is matched against the information on the card itself.

The Spec Department

Once the information has been verified during the Sticker Stage, the order is then off to our Spec department. This is where our research team resides. Once again, the cards are counted, the sticker information is verified and the cards that need additional research, whether there was no information provided or if it is a rare issue, are examined before all of the data is entered into the database.

Grading

The cards are now ready for grading. Each order is distributed to graders based on their particular skill and expertise. For example, a 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle would not be distributed to one of our modern card specialists. While the graders are generally trained to handle cards from virtually all eras, they are assigned cards based on their strengths.

In addition, the sheer number of graders assigned to each card can vary depending on the type of card submitted. In all cases, at minimum, two graders are assigned to every card.

Here's an example – if you were to submit a 1965 Topps Willie Mays – this is how the grading process would work:

Each grader receives the order and they will enter the order number into the computer. Once that is done, the contents of that order will appear on the PSA grading screen. Grader #1 will then enter his grade for the card in question (and for each card within the order until the order is completed if there is more than one card) and close the order on his screen. Once that is done and after redistribution of the order, Grader #2 will do the same – not knowing the opinion of the first grader on any of the cards within that order.

If their grades match in the computer, the card would then eventually reach a 3rd grader for verification of the grade. If the opinion of the first two graders does not match, that card will be assigned to a 3rd grader whose opinion is required to break the tie, so to speak. As with the first example, the card would still be assigned to another grader for verification (a 4th grader in the process) to make sure the grade is accurate and consistent with our standards.

The first stage in the grading process is determining whether the card is authentic. With the values of some trading cards today, counterfeits are not uncommon on some of the hobby's biggest stars – especially rookie cards and reprints that are often submitted as originals.

Once the card has been determined to be authentic, it is then checked for possible alterations. Since the value of a trading card is often linked directly to its condition, some "card doctors" as they are referred to will attempt to enhance the condition of cards in a variety of ways.

For example, they may attempt this by either trimming them to enhance the sharpness of the edges and corners or re-color them to enhance the color or to cover up wear along the surface or edges. There are several ways a card can be "doctored" but, if evidence of such doctoring is present, the card will not be graded by PSA because the card is no longer original according to PSA standards.

So, finally, once the graders have determined the card to be authentic and unaltered, a grade can now be assigned to the card in question. PSA's 1-10 grading scale, with 10 being best, is universally accepted throughout the industry. Graders are now focusing on the characteristics of the card such as the strength and quality of the corners, color, edges, centering, surface, print clarity and overall eye appeal. PSA's grading standards can be found in Sports Market Report, which is the official price guide for PSA certified collectibles, and on our website. We highly recommend that submitters become familiar with those standards, because your improved knowledge may help increase your chances of attaining higher grades.

The PSA Labeling Department

Once the grades have been assigned in the database, the PSA labels are now generated and printed. By entering the order number into the system, our team can now print all of the crucial information for the PSA label including the card number, player and/or subject, manufacturer, grade and the unique certification number mentioned earlier in our video. Each and every collectible certified by PSA receives this unique number which is stored in our database along with that collectible's history.

The Sealing Department

Now that the PSA labels have been printed, our sealing department is given the task of selecting the appropriate custom holders for each card and then carefully placing the card and PSA label within the holder. Once the contents have been assembled by hand, each card is taken to the boom room where cards are sonically sealed in our tamper-evident holders. This sonic weld is strong and helps ensure security of the PSA holder.

Verification Stage (1)

After the cards have been sealed in the PSA holders, they are then sent to the Grading Verification stage. As mentioned earlier, this is where another grader will check the orders for accuracy and consistency in relation to PSA standards. If the cards appear to meet PSA's guidelines, the order is then sent on to the next step in the process. If any of the cards do not appear to meet the standards, the card is then removed from the holder and re-evaluated by our staff.

Verification Stage (2)

Once our grading staff has finalized the grades through the verification process, the orders are then sent to the final verification stage. This stage is PSA's final quality control checkpoint. Here, the order is then reunited with the original submission form and each card is matched against the paperwork.

The cards and holders are examined for defects that may have been overlooked in prior stages such as scratched cases or improper information on the PSA label. Once this is checked and verified, a PSA packing slip is printed so our shipping department is aware of the method of delivery you have selected. Upon completion, the grades are posted and an e-mail confirmation is sent to the customer with the grading results.

I agree with your premise that card grading can be performed, or at least interact, with computers.

But I am curious how you think novelists, scientists, or surgeons will be replaced by computers? Architects I don't know, as that is straight mathematics, as best I can tell, but I am not an architect.

Tony Colacino

Yeah if only the section on the "Grading" process was actually done that way and done that way for everyone the population report would not look anything like it does today.

Architecture is "straight mathematics"? I assume you must be confusing architects with building engineers or something. Architects design buildings; it's a creative field, like novelists or scientists, though they do have to know about building materials and physics and such.

I have mixed feelings about AI, but its impact in medicine is already being seen. They (Watson and others like it) can keep completely up to date on all published medical journals, university studies/research, etc (thousands and thousands of pages). They in real can then time aid in a surgeon's decision making, potentially even during a procedure. I'd expect in the longer term, their hands may prove more steady and predictable than a human's, as well as that they can be sized and shaped to fit in tighter spaces.

Separately, AI in the legal world should be interesting given how much research, and/or document review could potentially be done instantaneously, as opposed to using paralegals, associates, etc, and the accompanying human hours.

Face it, a lot of grading is probably done to enhance the value of cards to be sold. Let's assume many graded cards hit the market soon after they leave the TPG. I worry that cards could be intentionally undergraded, the serial numbers noted, then monitored for sales on Ebay and the AH's. They get purchased by those who know the undergraded serial numbers, and the cards can be resubmitted for a bump.

There is at least one, former I believe, SGC grader on the board. Maybe he will speak up or not.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CLCT/profile?p=CLCT


The CFO makes 315k so using that as a benchmark I would think the head grader makes 125k or so and then the others in the 60k to 80k range.


Just a guess.

Frank Lloyd Wright would like a word with you...

Graders make $35K-$45k roughly the last time I was pursuing that as a job. Best paid guy was $65k or so

Interesting. How on earth does one survive on that income and especially in California???

They don't.

Surprised Joe Orlando isn't one of the top 4 paid execs of CU. I guess maybe he is only an employee of PSA and not CU.

The creative processes are more complicated than,say, grading cards or harvesting corn, but we've already had computers passing the Turing test for many years, and I don't see anything qualitatively different between generating a new conversation in real time and generating a novel. Once you accept that there isn't anything magical about organic material, such as brains, it's just a question of how long it will take before AI is more advanced than humans in any particular domain. And that should take off pretty quickly (to say the least) once you have AI with the ability to make engineering improvements to itself.

The specific comments are mine, but the general idea is the same as what Nick Bostrom and others have been saying for years. The Sam Harris TED talk from last year is a good synopsis.

I don't believe AI has yet to pass the Turing test.

AI/cognitive science is a pet area of mine: A Few Notes on Artificial Intelligence

For the record, I don't think computers could practically grade cards on their own. As an aid to humans I could imagine. And, if they could, it would still be humanly subjective, because humans would still decide (and endlessly debate amongst themselves) what qualities and quantities and in what ratio are essential for a grade.

They grade their buddy's cards, and then take a cut of the final auction price...

JK

As said before, that'd be my worry. Not really as worried about precisely how they could do it (seems there are many ways... And seeing PSA method, the receiving person assigning the new serial number seems to hold a lot of power), as I am by the simple fact these guys don't make much, yet have power to add tens/hundreds of thousands in market value to the items they review on a daily basis.

That's a pretty bold accusation.

Head Graders
 

are making far more than 45-65,000 a year unless salaries have been cut in half (or more) over the last decade/decade and a half.

Or a joke, but who the hell can tell these days?

I read less as an accusation (my position definitely not accusatory), but more an acknowledgement that the ingredients are in place for some really lucrative potential corruption.

I think one of the main reasons there have not been major sports/pro athlete gambling controversies of late is that these guys are clearly very well compensated, and have everything to lose.

The 1919 White Sox were not. College players have never been. NBA refs are not (at least relative to players). I think that these scams and corruption are more likely to occur when the proper ingredients are there--- underpaid individual, having great personal influence over something worth a lot of money to others, as well as difficult to enforce.

You don't need AI as a grader, you need AI as foreman.

HAL 9000 scene

I do love me some HAL.

It may be a joke or it may not be but in the bigger picture suggesting card graders or card grading companies are bought off with back door payoffs is a bold accusation. PSA is obviously a public company and you would be looking at serious jail time and a total destruction of their business.

I think they throw darts at a board.

It's not an accusation or even a suggestion (from me at least). It's just an observation that the opinions of several people who make relatively modest wages can have a mulitmillion dollar impact one way or another on these products. This is not directed at any TPG, but is a general comment. Again, I'm mainly commenting on a set of circumstances, which can lead to temptation.

This in no way unique to collecting, and clearly similar applies in many other fields, including for example the public sector. I remember reading a story a few years ago in SF where a few city building inspectors would block proposed home improvements (adding a floor, a garage, a deck, etc). When those houses would eventually sell, the inspectors were in cahoots with buyers, and would then approve these improvements which increased home values. On a broader scale, the City of Bell, CA. Too many scams there to begin listing.

When money is involved crazy things can happen. No doubt. I remember a few years ago at the bank I work for a branch manager downstairs got busted stealing funds from an elderly clients line of credit and it was shocking. She ran out of the bank but was quickly caught and is sitting in jail. Apparently she had a gambling problem and was covering her losses with their money.

That said because of the nature of their business, a third party graders business model is based on objectivity and the entire thing comes crashing down if collusion exists and they know that and I feel very confident there are safe guards in place to insure this doesn't happen.

The only whiff of this I have ever read about was when the Doug Allen case busted wide open and the owner of SGC was potentially implicated. Nothing ever came of it from what I have read.


****Notice their used correctly. Haha

No, it comes crashing down only if collusion exists and someone proves it. BIG difference. And I doubt it even comes crashing down, we are all too addicted to stuff and slabs.

Totally agree. One of my two BST incidents involved a guy who had worked at a bank, and presume knew intimately how their deposit systems worked. Nothing provable bit it was all very suspicious. If it was indeed a scam, then i'd expect it was just another example of someone who knew how things worked from the inside, and knew well how to game the system. All ended well enough for me, in that my bank's fraud services eventually (1.5-2 yrs later) reimbursed my prior loss. I presume the allaged, or whomever the scammer made out with his money, though nothing was provable.

Re- TPG, I'd very much hate for any of these scenarios to come true, as it would have a huge impact on my collection's value. Though I don't really ever submit to TPGs, I (like many here) own a lot of graded stuff. Hope that horror story never plays out.

Good point. Though I could imagine one company taking a huge hit, or even going under in light of a scandal, while the others capitalize. Though I also suspect they'd need to go to incredible measures to demonstrate the integrity of their internal processes.

Really? PSA 8 Wagner. Who took that hit?

Doug Allen's rebacked Plank PSA 6. Who took that hit?

I too have a vested interest in graded cards and feel very comfortable with PSA. That said I am quite aware that the value of those cards would be at severe risk in the event a situation such as this became a public issue. It is possible other grading companies could grab the ball and run with it but I think it would send real shock waves through the investor part of the market and create real trouble for the industry.

I think there is very little risk. Too many people with too much money invested in it to let anything blow up. When something bad happens, as they have done before, they'll just rationalize and spin it and life will go on. The most expensive card in a holder (I think it's the most expensive) is trimmed. Nobody cares. Tons of expensive cards in holders are trimmed, chemically altered, etc. Nobody cares. We want our stuff. We like it graded. That will sustain TPG through any scandal, and we can always resort to discrediting whoever is claiming a problem.