Is snipe bidding killing the hobby?
 

Hello,

Curious on others thoughts regarding snipe bidding on ebay. Obviously this practice is a huge advantage for buyers but awful for sellers. Is it a coincidence that there are now so many sports auction sites (which don't allow snipes) and most ebay items are BIN?

Mark

Not killing anything.
 

It has lowered the number of auctions starting at a dollar that i agree with. THe peak hobby years there was no ebay and most things were sold "retail" I think a lot of the have to sell for cash flow dealers have gone away, many during the last downturn, but I don't see the hobby going any where in fact many areas are as strong as they have been in a long time.

Interesting question, but Snipe is nothing new. I agree that the dynamics of sales (i.e. fewer auctions) has changed significantly over the years, but not sure I would attribure that to Snipe nor would I say it is killing the hobby. Sellers have become more sensitive to price, with great awareness of market value, and do not wish to give items away below market - I think that has attrbuted more to the change than Snipe.

I still get good deals off ebay through traditional bids.

I mostly snipe due to the potential shill bid factor.

I don't think sniping is all that different from how I normally bid anyway. I'll wait until the clock counts down to 2 seconds and bid on my own. I guess it would be more convenient if I just got a snipe service, but I'm doing the same thing anyway.

I agree with both of the last two posters. The only real thing that has changed is that the great majority of all bidding activity occurs at the very end of an auction.

Personally, I've never understood the logic of bidding repeatedly early in an auction. The only thing that this does is artificially force the price up and increase the likelihood that you will spend an excessive amount as a buyer.

I certainly believe this as a buyer and understand and accept this as a seller FWIW...

Same here. I essentially enter the equivalent of a manual snipe, but if the item is extremely important to me I use a snipe service, simply because I don't want to forget to bid.

The good old days are gone. But they always are - things always look better in the rear view mirror.

Great comments/points! EBay provided (IMHO) the single biggest jolt to the sports memorabilia hobby in the last 30 years. While it may have accelerated the downfall of brick & mortar sport shops and local card shows, it had enough global accessibility to generate a true “market value” for our collectibles – while completely eliminating the middle man in the process.

Does snipe bidding establish a true "market value"? It is a flurry of independent single offers within the last 10 seconds of an auction. While it is almost foolish for a bidder to NOT snipe bid (as pointed out above), the seller is forced to play a game of “Russian roulette”. Now some sports collectibles (vintage cards instantly come to mind) generate enough bids that a seller typically makes out ok. But for vintage sports memorabilia it is a total crapshoot on eBay.

Is it a coincidence the high quality vintage sports memorabilia has dried up on eBay over the last few years? Sure an occasional antique dealer puts up a cool piece, but those are few and far between. It seems that more and more high quality pieces are making their way to a plethora of sports auction sites instead – which has reestablished the middle man that eBay helped eliminate. Has the hobby now come full circle?

Great discussion this morning!!

A few points
 

1) I agree with all the points made above related to the buyer side. I almost always snipe.
2) As a seller - for regularly traded items where a market value is easily established, I believe there is not too much risk that a seller takes on.
3) For more thinly traded items or should I "feel like it" - I have the choice to set a minimum bid or reserve. Yes, statistically it chases some bidders away, but it also protects me.

I almost always snipe on things I really want to add to the collection. For me I find that it prevents me from making emotional decisions at the last minute and overspending. I just enter the highest amount I am willing to pay and that is that.
Also, I have been in a few auctions where it was pretty clear there was some shills going down.

That said, I have lost a few bids with sniper, and then again, but I have gotten a few steals too.

I agree with others here about sniping, which has has been around from the beginning. I manually snipe unless there's something ending when I know I won't be able to bid; if it's something I want real bad and don't want to forget to bid; or, if multiple items are ending at the same time--then I use a free service (this is rare).

I probably shouldn't say this, but I often actually invite shilling in a way. Many times my placeholder bid is set at about 50% of what I actually would be willing to pay. I want there to be early interest on the off chance a seller is thinking of pulling the card for non-bidding and/or selling off-line at a "panic" price--obviously this would not apply to knowledgeable sellers. Anyway, I am hoping others bid up to my "max" and I don't care if it's shilled to get there--philosophically I wish the card would have been started at a higher price or a reserve set but I understand some sellers for whatever reason don't/won't do that. This let's seller know he won't get absolutely fleeced if it sells. When I get an outbid notice by email I then look to see if I think the interest is legitimate or I suspect shilling. Also, if that outbid notice comes real early after my bid, it signals in some sense that this card may draw real interest for the duration of the auction. In short, it's kind of a litmus test that makes me look at the auction more closely and consider whether this is something I really want and how hard I may have to fight for it with a late snipe. Obviously far from fool proof but makes things a little more interesting, for me anyway. Plus, it helps prevent me from kicking myself when I occasionally forget to bid in ebay auctions that ultimately sell for a small fraction of what I would have paid (it happens)--this way I could get a great deal or at least know I pushed someone else to pay closer to market value.

I do the exact same thing Todd (nolemmings). Thought I was the only one who did that!

Sniping isn't a issue. Bidders that keep bumping up the price are IMO

+1

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

I tend to agree with many of perezfan Mark's points, however I have found eBay is an excellent place to sell vintage baseball tickets and certain other memorabilia.

I've noted that large catalogue AH's are a crap shoot when it comes to selling vintage baseball tickets. Many times tickets do not realize anywhere near the prices that you can frequently get on eBay. I suspect that this is because of the fact that this is where many of the ticket collectors lurk, FWIW...

That is an excellent point perezfan. Snipe bidding is probably just another example of eBay's persistent pandering to the buyer.

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

Should bidders be warned after a series of bids on a item? Say they bid 10 times on a item.. Should ebay system warn them about their bidding activity, then allow them maybe 2 more bids? I can't see why someone needs to bid more than 5 times on a item. Just brainstorming :rolleyes:

Well... Some may be "fishing" for a reserve amount.

Others may be trying to beat an earlier placed ceiling bid.

Others may not have the patience or discipline to bid late.

And perhaps the remainder are simply unaware of the various sniping services.

This. +1

Sniping is why sellers began ending auctions early to accept offers. Whether or not one thinks it's ethical, if a $500 item is stuck at a 99 cent bid on day five, many sellers will start entertaining reasonable offers. This is particularly true when they were previously burned by auctions where snipe bid never materialized in the last two seconds and the items sold for cheap.

I put up a somewhat valuable item item for 99 cents on eBay with $5 shipping. It sold for $15. The shipping was $17.50. I wasn't about to end the auction once there was a bid and the winner had bought valuable items from me before so I'm not complaining and I'm happy for his business, but this is why I rarely do auctions on eBay and have no intention to in the near future. It's all BINs for me with no apologies.

Do I think sniping in part messed up eBay auctions and contributed to the scarcity of auctions and the abundance of BINs? Yes, I do. I believe it very firmly. Do I think sniping was a reasonable reaction to shill bidding and eBay protecting shill bidders? Yes. Something can be messed by multiple forces. Though I do know if sellers thought they'd get fair prices via eBay auctions there would be more auctions and fewer BINs. Most sellers would be much prefer to have their items sold at fair prices in a week, rather than sit around as BINs.

This makes me think that sniping may be overall GOOD for ebay and for sellers and buyers. If sniping were the required bidding method, it would prevent people from bidding and then retracting their bid once they knew the reserve or the high bid.

Ebay + Paypal is 11%. What auction house charges less than that? The ones I've seen are charging 18-20%. The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more. No sniping plus bidders that don't use ebay.

"The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more."

That's known a big advantage.

One problem with the scarcity of auctions on eBay, and the scarcity of quality items auction on eBay, is fewer collectors look for eBay auctions. A seller may not put up a nice item sd auction on eBay out of fear collectors won't look for or see it amongst the sea of BINs. In the old days when BINs were few to none, eBay was the place for auctions and people came to bid.

in reality, there is no such thing as sniping, you bid as much as you are willing to pay, whether it is right away at the beginning of the auction , or 2 seconds left, and others do too. so the high price takes it, no matter when it was entered as a bid.

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

others snipe knowing they cant enter another bid, like you, so they are like you and entering their max snipe. if you enter the max bid right at the end or the beginning , you will win it or not depending on whether someone wanted it more than you or not.

+1

You are spot on Drcy!

Let's be honest...we don't snipe bid to just avoid "shill" bids. We snipe bid to avoid "ANY" competing bid, even legitimate ones. It is exploitation of a flaw in eBay's auction system. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is the only auction house in history to function this way.

The purpose of an auction is to sell an item at fair market value. How does a flurry of snipe bids in the final 10 seconds determine fair market value? Now there are some items, say a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 7, that the market value is pretty well established. But how much should someone pay for an 1894 Varsity Yale Football Pach Bros photo? Our hobby needs the back-and-forth of bids to determine that. That is healthy for our hobby.

Heritage Auctions owns Gavelsnipe.com and you can bid/snipe (maybe) in Heritage from their sniping service.

And, to me, the flurry of snipe bids is true market. (unless they are shills). I only put in snipes ( I snipe 98% of the time, the other 2% I want the adrenaline rush) when I want something, and absent fraud, others do the same thing. How can that not be true market? In reality no auction in the world has 100% of interested buyers in their auction. I bid in a ton of auctions, ebay and otherwise....and help run a small auction company, so have my own views..... Fun debate.....

Leon,

It is a fun debate. Obviously there is no definitive answer. Heritage has a 5-minute rule on Internet auctions.

But let me ask you this, since you run a small auction company. If eBay gave you (as the seller) the option for a "10-minute rule" at an extra 1% would you take advantage of it?

I'm doing pretty much the same things! If a seller lists a jersey knowing what it is or unknowing what it is at a low price, I will throw in a decent bid to see what the interest level is and to show the seller that he shouldn't sell outside of eBay. This sadly works only fraction of the time. I see too many things that don't get the bids the seller wants and he/she freak out and sell it outside of eBay. I bet they will make more if they let the auction take its course (most of the time)... There are a few guys out there that collect exactly what I do and I can't think of a time where I got a "steal" The only steals I've gotten is from a seller that lists a BIN that is below fair market and I will jump on that.

As a seller, I've been contacted with offers and even a guy with the math of how it makes more sense to skip eBay FVF/PayPal systems...

I'm shocked with as greedy as eBay is that they haven't implemented a 15 minute rule with their auctions. I love it with NFL Auctions. I get an e-mail and I have 15 minutes to decide if I want to go higher. In this case everyone wins. eBay gets the maximum dollar value to get their fees. The seller gets the item sold for the maximum price at that time. The buyer knows that he paid a fair market price.

I agree Samets.

I don't see why eBay doesn't offer a "10 minute rule" option to sellers for an additional fee. Maybe it is much more complicated (from the backend/software) than we think??

I am not sure I would ever want to pay more for ebay services. They are kind of rich right now, imo. But I would have to consider it, financially, even if my personal bias is to hate more fees. At the end of the day their invoice, If I could make more than I am spending, I would do it. :)

And no, the 10 minute ebay rule programming would not be difficult to do, with respect to everything else. I have been involved in a few auction programming projects on the sales/marketing side of the business..(I am not technical but have seen what can be done and how long things take, in general)


,

Clearly people place snipe bids to get lower prices. People in this very thread have said that. So clearly sniping lowers prices. And it's not just a matter of shilling (which I don't deny is a legitimate problem), but people here have said they do it due to other legitimate bidders. They believe other bidders (and I'm talking about honest ones) will bid more and raise prices if they see their bids in the middle of the auction as opposed to when they're snuck in at the end and don't have a chance to react. Call it psychological bidding if you wish or people bidding more when they're emotionally invested in an item they've bid on or being irrationally exuberant or having more time to think if they are willing to place an extra bid, but that's a part of how people bid. People are psychological animals not robots and often will bid more than they would have if they someone has out bid them. Remove shilling and have only legitimate honest bidders participating in the bidding process and people would still place snip bids to get lower prices. The reason why auction houses have 10 or 15 minute rules is because bidders will reconsider what they're willing to bid and sometimes raise their bids when given a few minutes to think about it-- something that snipe bidding eliminates and is designed to eliminate. The idea that sniping has no effect on final pricing is, quite simply, wrong-- and I'm talking here about auctions where there is no shilling.

Yes we snipe to get a lower price but also to avoid the shillers. Back in the day I would just put in my secret highest bid. On several occasions I would wake up in the morning and get two different emails. One said "you were outbid". The next would say "you won!". WTF? I went back and would see a bidder top everyone and then retract his bid and rebid just under my secret high bid.

After that I would sit at the computer for every auction I wanted to bid in, wait until the last second and pop in my high bid. So esnipe was a great idea.

The other reason I wait until the last second is because some people don't put in the time and effort to research some items. They just look at what everyone is bidding on and jump in. I've won many auctions with only my bid because I spent a lot of time researching something to find out it was a great deal. I spent the time, I reap the benefits. If I were to bid on it the first day its like sending up a flag that this is a good item to bid on.

I look at sniping slightly differently.

I snipe not because of "lower" prices per se. I snipe because it prevents me from getting emotional about an item. By bidding the most I'm willing to pay at the very end, allows me to stay within my budget and either win or lose without regret. I never assume my bid will win it more cheaply than my max. If it does great. If it doesn't that's OK too. It's not my fault others don't bid at the end the same way. If they do, the final price isn't very likely to be lower at all.

I think the reason there is less stuff on ebay is because they have made it a very unfriendly place for small sellers. Sure, if you're KHW or PWCC or Probstein, you can still survive quite well because of the volume, but ebay is trying to be Amazon. This has made it virtually impossible for the collector who sells so he/she can buy to be able to sell cost effectively. The higher fees and strangling rules, not sniping, have made guys like Mark(perezfan) and others, who have high end items they may want to move to buy something else, no longer chance selling on ebay outside of BINs at prices that factor in the extra fees.

I place a bid on an item for the amount I want to pay. If I win, great, if not, there is always the nest one.

Sniping is the best way to bid on eBay, no question. Several studies have proven that items sold under snipes go for less money than traditional auctions. However, if sellers are now looking to maximize profits by shifting their material to BINs or sports auction sites how is this healthy for our hobby? I would much rather purchase an item off eBay than pay 25% buyers fees.

I don't agree with the "sniping saves me money" for an auction. There are 2 reasons I will snipe 1) to not show your hand 2) you can decide to change your bid, not bid, etc,... up until 5 minutes before the auction ends.

I also agree with murphusa. There's always another blankin auction. And another one after that. So, big deal if you "miss something".

What I can't figure out is how the hell collectors can keep up with the 50+ auction houses + ebay + Net54 B/S/T. Can someone please explain that to me ? Please ?

You basically just search the category/niche that suits you and save the items of interest to your "watch list". Then set your snipes accordingly (if ebay) or save the closing date to your calendar (if Catalogue Auction).

If you want the item(s) bad enough you won't lose track!

sniping doesnt get stuff for lower prices. its ridiculous. if an item went for a price that was lower due to sniping, that means someone was willing to pay more, but didnt enter their increased bid. why would they not do that? that doesnt make sense. if someone was willing to pay more, they would have just entered a higher snipe bid at the end. sniping is just a way for people to THINK they have more control over an auction than they do. its a construct that makes people feel good, like thinking they are using a 'system' to beat the lottery, the roulette wheel, or the slot machines, when there is no such thing.

It takes some effort to stay on top of everything, all of the time, no doubt. Tools exist to make things easier, though, and since you said please....

excellent website for seeing what's running and what's coming up...

http://www.auctionreport.com/

another great site that allows you to enter specific searches and they'll let you known when a tracked auction house has a match for you. While it may not cover every AH, it covers quite a few, and many of the big ones...

http://bid-brain.com/

finally, reading SCD every few days will usually keep you up to date on many upcoming auctions...

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/

Because many collectors may want a certain card, but also want to get it for a good deal. You want a card, but you don't want to overpay (that can take some of the fun out of the hobby).

It happens all the time. A bidder will set an aggressive snipe that they are certain will win, only to see someone else outbid them. Many of those bidders, if given a 2nd chance to bid just a bit more, would enter in a higher snipe. It may not make sense to you, but I would think it happens a lot.

There it is, in a nutshell.

If you don't want to be "sniped" then bid a higher amount. Easy.

As noted, many bidders who lose an auction by a last second bid would have placed a higher bid if given a second chance. If bids were placed earlier, they would have had the second chance, but with snipe bids they have no second chance. This explains why snipe bids can and do lower prices.

If someone places a snipe bid of $200 and it's won by someone else at $205, he may say "Aw shoot, I wanted that. I would have paid $210 for that. I may have even paid $220. I wish I could go back and raise my max bid." If there were no snipe bids, but the $205 (or higher) bid by his opponent placed a day before the auction's or even 10 minutes before the end, he has the chance to say "Aw shoot, I want this so I'm going to raise my bid to $220." That's exactly how snipe bids can and do result in lower prices. And that's exactly why auction houses have 10 or fifteen minute rules. No major auction house has a fixed ending time with snipe bidding-- because they know many bidders will raise their previous max bids if given 10 or fifteen minutes to reconsider, and they know their 10 or 15 minute chance to reconsider system results in higher final prices.

In a 7 day auction, a bidder may have a set-in-stone, unwavering mind, "that's what's in my budget" $1,000 max bid for 6 days 23 hours and 55 minutes, but when he sees the bid go to $1,010 with five minutes left he may say "Aw what the hell, I'll go to $1,100." If the $1,100 bid isn't high enough and there's two minutes left he may say "Okay, I'll bid $1,250, but no higher." If the two bidders had place snipe bids, the auction would have ended at $1,010.

well it can't be killing the hobby, look at how many collectors are using it.

If anything, it's helping the hobby.

I don't see anything remotely detrimental :confused:

Now if eBay finds some way to prohibit sniping (which I wouldn't put past them), that WOULD be a blow to the hobby!