OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot
 

I saw this trending on Twitter. I'm a little surprised these guys are being considered. Curious to see how it unfolds. Personally, I'd rather not see these three in the hall, but that's my personal opinion.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/86...ar-hall-ballot

funnu u posted that - Down in the water cooler area there is a discussion going on about the HOF too

It's interesting, but I like it - gives the writers a chance to punctuate the "No".

My opinion on it is if you don't put in Clemens, then close the Hall for the entire steroid era. Because you're only guessing on everyone else too. I would put in the best from the era and leave out anyone who has failed since testing has come out, hard to punish a guy pre-testing era when owners were turning a blind-eye to it, yet at the same time rewarding them for it. Unless Derek Jeter or Barry Larkin or Randy Johnson is on this board, anyone who says they positively never used is just assuming. If you don't put in the best from the era(without a failed test ie Manny Ramirez) then don't put in anyone. Simple as that.

Another way to think about it is that the list of banned substances now is so big, there is no way you could assume anyone is not guilty of one of them at some point. More than half the stuff at GNC you could buy yourself, is off-limits to them. So while player X from that era could say he never did steroids or HGH, he very likely did something that is now banned so where do you draw the line?

I don't think people are guessing Clemens took steroids though for the same reason I don't think saying Bonds took them is a guess or speculation. If you don't think he took them, he was probably your favorite player once upon a time. He cheated. I know it sucks but accept it rather than trying to say everyone cheated bcause Roger Clemens did.

So what, let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

That's all I will say on this as it is a never ending topic. But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

Really? Bonds was the best at his position...ever? How many home runs could Ruth have hit on steroids? Have you seen McGwire since the 'roids wore off?

And Clemens? I would argue for Walter Johnson, and certainly over a non-juiced version of Clemens.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

Have you seen the level of competition Ruth played with vs Bonds? Do you think Ruth and his fat a$$ could have come close to match the numbers put up then? Lets see, far inferior pitching and defense for Ruth. Let's see here, Ruth has more triples than SB's, how the hell is that possible...worse defense, that's how. Ruth had almost more triples in one season than Bonds did in his career, explain that.

Have you seen McGwire before he juiced, that rookie season, he was a twig.

Let's see, and in regards to Johnson vs Clemens, Clemens has a better K/9, about even H/9, fairly even BB/9, 1,000k+ more in SO's, over 1,000 less innings pitched, if Clemens were to have thrown that many innings, he would have easily had more wins.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compair numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

+1 very different era's, but if Ruth were to play now, good luck holding Bonds' jock-strap. He would need a significant diet etc to be able to play with these athletes today.

Damn. I'll leave you to stew in your own juices.

Yeah, as did Bonds. Unfortunately, his 'diet' was illegal.

It wasn't in the game of baseball at that time, and remember, he never tested positive for MLB drug testing.

Bonds was the most feered hitter i have ever seen. With numbers to prrove it (forget the HR) with all the walks

You have a good point there. I'll have to eat a little crow, as I don't believe we can make assumptions about whether or not someone did drugs. But I won't blame the HOF voters if they choose to make that assumption. It's kind of like Judge Landis dealing with Joe Jackson outside the law, but by his own laws of baseball.

That's true. The bigger problem I have with Bonds getting in is that he broke both the single-season HR record, and the all-time HR record. Numbers are sacred in baseball, and he crapped all over them. To have his numbers in there alongside the legitimate ones of Hank Aaron and Roger Maris (numbers, not the man), just rubs me the wrong way.

I assumed Clemens was the guy least deserving to go in. At least the others had HOF-like careers before PEDs. Clemens was 50-49 and going nowhere.

Ignore this post. I have stats mixed up.

Thanks Scott, I totally respect yours and everyone else's opinions, and can understand 100% why anyone would view the opposite of me, remember, this is just my opinions and everyone's opinions. I am not neceassrily correct, but that's my beliefs.

I certainly agree with you on Landis, that banishment I find the most disturbing (in regards to being unfair).

The argument regarding Blacks, Dominicans, Japanese, etc. is bogus. Ruth played in a time where the only sports that could come close to rivaling baseball in popularity were boxing and horse racing. So baseball constituted the athletic elite of the times and thus incorporated the best athletes, albeit within the White population.

Bonds et al played in a time when a huge proportion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball. So think of all of the great athletes that they never had to face.

Huh???
He had won three cy youngs by 1997

nevermind. I must have someone else's statistics mixed up. Need to add a correction to my other post.

i think what you are thinking of is that in his last four years before he was traded to toronto and allegedly started using, he was 50-49 but he was hugely successful before that

A bit of comment about a few points.

Ruth would be fine today. The "overweight" Ruth is partly body type, partly from the late career photos.
His huge count of triples compared to steals is from a couple things.
1) Huge ballparks. A drive to center in the polo grounds probably wasn't going out. (Although Ruth hit at least one out there around 460ft, out of any modern park)
2)He could actually run. Especially earlier.
3) Who would try stealing with Gherig at bat?
4) Stealing is more of a mental exercise than physical. Sure, speed helps a lot, but it all works off the pitchers time to the plate and how they watch the runner. I don't know how they played Ruth. If he was watched closely there may have been little opportunity to steal as well as reduced need.

Ruths pitching ability was also excellent.

And the argument that he wasn't facing ALL the best players could be countered by the one saying he also didn't face players from 15+ teams, only 8. figuring a modern 5 man rotation that's 40 pitchers who would be minor leaguers without expansion. More if you figure 1920's teams didn't have 5 man rotatons or closers or middle relievers. Of course the counter then is that modern players are often facing fresh pitchers instead of a guy throwing pitch number 257....Endless.

The other big sport of the 20's was 6-day bike racing. the top riders earned more than Ruth. 500-1000 a day, on top of the contract, plus prizes. Chicago was a favorite town since Capone was a huge fan and spent many nights giving out prizes for sprints every few laps $100 here, $500 there....

Bonds never tested positive. True. Maybe. I believe he stopped once the testing program began. It's also likely that the "cream" and "clear" were new stuff there wasn't a test for. Lance also "never tested positive" except for that one time he blamed the butt ointment, and that time he was let slide, and that other time Nike "took care of it"
Testing in Baseball began in 06, and Bonds had a very typical year lost to injury in 05. A very common thing for players stopping steroids.
So I'm not buying that part.

Sadly, I think if he'd stayed clean and been a bit nicer as a person he'd still have the career HR record, He just would have gotten it a couple years later. And may have stuck around a couple more.

Steve B

Steve, are just trying to placate the pro-Barry guys? Have you seen pictures of what he looked like in his pre-steroid days?

Bonds are a great player before the 'roids, but he wasn't a future home run king. Before his 73 season he never hit 50. The fact that when most player's skills are fading if they're even still in ball at 37 years old Bonds somehow hits 73 is ridiculous. Bonds wasn't a team player, he didn't care about anyone except himself. I hope he never sniffs Cooperstown.

Hof
 

Why don't they put in some that deserve to be there like Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Steve garvey...These are players that deserve to be in there and need votes to get in.
Loved Bonds, McGwire, Clemens...All were great players but i think they don't belong in the HOF due to cheating. My opinion only.

+1

So what, you don't need to hit 50. Just look at the man he supplanted, did he hit 50...

I am a weight lifter and have been or many years. Wherever there is weight lifting there are drugs. I never used steroids only because i could not afford them. I remember sitting in gyms talking about Incaviglia back when he came up pre-Canseco. I am not saying that Incaviglia was juicing. However, his arrival made it fairly obvious to those of us in that culture that serious weight lifting had arrived in baseball. We also knew that drugs were soon to follow just as night follows day. PEDs do not create ability they enhance it. Genetics cannot be improved upon. While on androgenics the journeyman becomes a steady player, the average player becomes a star, the superstar becomes a legend. I remember laughing when androstenedione was discovered in McGwire's locker. It is banned in other sports due to it being used as an masking agent. Athletes who used said indignantly, "I am not on steroids I'm on andro". In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance. My friend refused to believe me. Seven years later the Selena Roberts article came out in SI and I was the first person my friend, then employed by the scouting bureau, called. Unfortunately that whole generation of players is suspect. It doesn't make them less it makes them different. They are a product of their time. Just as Ruth was the product of his. Despite playing pre integration, night baseball, and coast to coast travel, Ruth would have succeeded in any generation. The numbers would not be as gaudy but they still would have been there because of genetics. However, I suspect that if he played in the steroid era he would have joined the PED party. Those of us who care about the HOF know that this generation's stats are inflated by PEDs...so what. Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's inclusion does not diminish the accomplishments of those already enshrined. What are we going to do deny an entire generation of players? If we do so then you might as well close the doors to the HOF because I will never go back. This issue really puts Hank Aaron's accomplishments in perspective. Those numbers are pre-steroid and post integration. I believe he is the greatest hitter of all time. Maddux's numbers are even more amazing considering his era. Thanks for indulging me while I pontificate.:o

Calmarse! I totally disagree. Ruth played with the best who were allowed to play during his time. Even considering that a “huge portion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball”, todays athletes would physically dominate Ruth and his power hitting peers. Below are the names and physical attributes of some of the greatest power hitter’s pre 1940. Next to them I listed a contemporary middle infielder of similar size who is Latin American and of color.

Lou Gehrig 6ft 200 lbs - Elvis Andrus 6’ 200
Babe ruth 6’2” 215 - Hanely Ramierez 6’2” 230
Jimmie Foxx 6’ 195 - Roberto Alomar 6’ 184
Mel Ott 5’9” 170 - Omar Vizquel 5’9” 180

I love these discussions as they separate baseball from other sports.

Is there a way for this thread and the one in watercooler to be merged? We're having them same discussion over there.

yes an admin OR MOD of the forum can merge them together, good idea. leon would be an admin, im not sure if anyone else was given admin or mod access. Maybe PM him and offer your suggestion.

I don't believe when people say bonds was a hall of famer before he started taking steriods.

There is no doubt that Bonds, before taking steroids, was a Hall of Famer. He would not have been classified as possibly the best ever, but almost certainly a first ballot selection.

Just like Rose & Jackson, before their poor decisions entered the picture, were no doubt Hall of Famers. Clemens likely as well but not quite as clear as Bonds.

Bonds absolutely was a HOFer before his alleged steroid use. Three MVPs, and the consensus best all around player in baseball for a decade.

I bet Bonds was on the juice for MOST of his career and not just the last couple years.

[QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.

As is Pedro's

While I agree, I disagree with your examples. Those guys couldn't even touch the HOF'ers, but I see where you're going with your point and I agree.

[QUOTE=HOF Auto Rookies;1056992][QUOTE=71buc;1056943In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance."

Men his age!? Are you kidding me! He was 26!!! Is that old!? Just because you were correct about him using in 2007, does not mean he used in 2002, and justifying it by being 26 because "men his age do not have muscle density." That's a bunch of bunk. I lift too, and trained for baseball and was on the path of a pro career and definitely thought of using steroids when I got injured, and I'm by no means small.

You know who Ronnie Coleman is, before he started juicing and was a cop, he was an absolute monster. Just because a man is a physical specimen doesn't mean they don't have the muscle density, just check out the natural body building competitions, those guys are freaks. A-Rod has one of the best work ethics in the game's history, period. He wanted to be THE best ever, and he busted his but off until he used in '07.

As you know, since you lift, you can pretty damn well add on some unreal muscle mass in a years time based off of protein intake and your diet and having a proper lifting regimen, because I know first hand in gaining 25 lbs of lean muscle mass in the off season as well as cutting fat.[/QUOTE]

A-rod didn't use in 2007, he admitted to using in the years 2001-03 in 2007.

What is your justification? His pre-roid MVP's weren't good enough, or his gaudy stats? Come on.

[QUOTE=yanks12025;1056995]Sorry, you are correct, looked at the wrong time frames. That's when the article came out, disregard my prior message. But prior to those seasons, he had three consecutive 40 hr seasons, I don't know why he used. But basing it off his age I do not agree with, being just 25-26 at the time of the first usage.

Ruth
 

Played against a segregated non global opponent yes Bonds was the greatest left fielder of alltime, no doubt at all in my mind.

Bonds not a Hof'er p;re steroids?
 

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

So because your opinion must be right, what year did Bonds first start using steroids then???? So say if Bonds started taking steroids in 1990 in which he won his first MVP. So he'd then be a hall of famer/all-time great based on his first three years in the majors... Simple answer NO.

You can't say he would have been a hall of famer/all-time great pre-steroids, because we don't know WHEN Bonds started taking steroids.

So what if Bonds started taking steroids in 2004, is his prior numbers not good enough?...Simple answer, YES.

It is well documented he started
 

In 1999, this is not nor should it be news to anyone that has closely followed this story or Bonds's career. He along with Griffey Jr are the premiere 5 tool players of their generation, The Mays and Mantle of their eras.

Exactly, because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa and the great HR chase.

lets just take this 1st ballot as a question here. 1st ballot 1st year.

UMMMM - so if bonds dosnt get in, and clemens dosnt get in, does piazza get in???

if is wasnt for the drug issue all 3 are 1st ballot HOF, but with clemens and bonds assosicated, they may not. piazza wasnt involved (apparantly) but ..... he probably was.

I agree with Bosoxfan- you can't close the Hall to a whole generation of players. Especially when some of those players, such as Bonds and Clemens, are among the greatest in the history of the game. And what's the solution? Admitting mediocre to good players simply because they didn't juice. That just turns the HOF into a farce.

And I still think the two threads should be merged.