OT: How about those Twins?
 

There's a lot to complain about in this world, but last night's Twins-Tigers game isn't one of them. The guy with the winning hit was batting .198, and the Twins' last pitcher picked up his first big league win ... in a do-or-die playoff game! The Metrodome is a poor excuse for a ballpark, but it's given us some unforgettable memories ...

Great game! Twins luck keeps them alive. Looking forward to ending Yankees season!

Yankees in 4, I think.

It's definitely going to be one of those David vs. Goliath playoff series. Go David!

Fun game to watch. I was amazed at all the mistakes on what should have been elementary baseball.

I agree, Chris. At one point, the Tiger's left fielder slid to snag a ball in front of him, and it landed behind him. Worse, the center fielder wasn't backing him up. What should have been an out turned into a triple and eventually the tying run, keeping the Twins alive ...

The winning run scored when a late defensive replacement singled and was batted in by a guy who entered the game late as a pinch runner.

Ironic wasn't it that the Rayburn misses the ball in left and was playing because he is the best defensive outfielder on the Tigers according to Leyland.
Twins had their share of goofs too: Baker grooves an 0-2 pitch to Carbrera that is hit out of the park, Young throws to the wrong base letting a runner advance, Casilla fails to properly tagg at 3rd and is thus thrown out at the plate by a whisker.
But there were a lot of great plays- Inge saving the game on Carbrera's hit by making a miraculous stop, Carbrera returning the favor on a bullet hit by Inge which was turned in to a double play.
It was just a whale of a game. For those of you old enough to have watched the 1991 WS (often called the best ever because every game but one went down to the last out with the game turning on the play) you come to expect this in the Dome. If the Twins split in NY (gigantic IF), you have to like the Twins' chances to pull a huge upset.
On paper it should be a rout (who would you rather have at 3b A-Rod or Matt Tolbert the Ole Miss grad who has played less than one full season in the bigs, Jeter or O-Cab, Cano or Punto of the .225 BA, Tschiera or Cuddyer at
1b. In the outfield Young or Matsui? Only in center field and catcher do the Twins have the edge. On the mound Sabbathia v. Duensing? Burnett v. Blackburn? Pettit v. Pavano?
But the games aren't played on the paper (ask the 06 Cubs said to be the greatest team ever).

tbob,

I heard this comment after the game but missed the play. What did he do? Was he not back at third waiting and had to go back? If so, that is a Little League mistake. That ball was hit too hard and too shallow to be off the base and still try to score.

"Was he not back at third waiting and had to go back? If so, that is a Little League mistake."

He was not!

Wow what a blast! Jeter is the man!

Twins look overmatched tonight which should not be much of a surprise considering last night. But if I had a baseball team the first few guys I'd trade for would include Mauer and Nick Punto.

I'm not in love with Punto. He's serviceable, bu that all.


Now Maurer and Morneau... they would look good in pinstripes, someday.

(Although I sense they are both throw-backs who will spend their entire careers in Minnesota. And I'm OK with that.)

Gardenhire's fatal flaw is that he cares too much. It's great that he loves his players and this sometimes inspires them to play hard but he will play certain players game after game because they once were good but now are not and he either doesn't recognize it or refuses to see it. He trotted Francisco Liriano (who was lights out in 2006 but hasn't done squat since then) out there all year long to the tune of 5-14 and he almost cost us the title but luckily for Twins fans Liriano went on the DL and Duensing came up and pitched lights out down the stretch. Tonight he sucked again, as usual, but there is another day and Nick Blackburn was arguably the best big game pitcher on the team this year so we'll see. Yes the Yanks have more talent but the Twins were just flat tonight. I thought Duensing did a nice job other than the one mistake to Jeter (I loved the announcers saying Jeter hit it "deep in to the New York night" when in actuality it barely got out and curled around the foul pole) and got a pitch up to Swisher. Nice job by the rookie.

Jeter's shot did just curl around the pole, but it landed 15-20 rows back. It was hit well.

Mauer wants to win and doesn't think the Twins will add what is needed to go all the way. He also doesn't want his contract to be an excuse for adding nothing. I think the pressure and bright lights of NYC appeal to him and wouldn't be surprised to see him in pinstripes soon. He can't go anywhere here without being mobbed and is ready to step up to the bigtime.

The "big time"? Would that be playing for a team that hasn't won a single world championship this decade?
Maurer will stay a Twin, the Pohlads would have a fan revolt on their hands that would make the French Revolution look like an alley fight. :eek:

Bob, in fairness to Liriano he had a horrible injury and surgery. It was painful to see him out there tonight getting batted around when you consider how great (albeit for a flash in time) he was.

about as I expected
 

Liriano's problems are mostly from the neck up. He has poor control, pitching for a team that gave up the fewest BBs again this year. The sermon is preached over and over--no walks, make them beat you with their bats--but is lost on him.

Liriano was the obvious first call to the bullpen tonight, given the short start and the pen's long workload last night. He actually pitched just badly, not poorly or abysmally as I half expected. The tator was hit to the deepest part of the park, but might have stayed in on a less windy night, in which case Span catches it, like he catches pretty much anything near him.

I'm sure Gardy also thought (well, dreamed is probably a better word) that Liriano might look sharp, and on the National stage no less, such that some team might actually delude itself into expressing trade interest this Winter. He's a number 5 starter at best now, and his days with the Twins are likely numbered.

The same fans who went ballastic when we took a local quarterback instead of Mark Prior? They got the new stadium so revenue covered for a couple years so if he wants to go it's over,and we will all cheer for him when he gets his ring just like KG with the Celtics. Posada is getting old and who better to replace him.

um
 

do not look for Joe Mauer to be catching for years on end. IMO, he will start taking ground balls at 3B by 2011---in Minneapolis.

Posada is very old but I agree, no way is Mauer a catcher after a couple more years. Look what he did offensively behind the plate this year; imagine what he could have done if playing at first or third base.

I don't understand why he has been catching the past few years with the swing he has and bad knees. I hope he stays but won't be surprised if he leaves.

Johnny, you could count the number of fans I know on one hand who wanted Prior over Maurer. Maurer cam out after high school as the best player in the draft and thank goodness the Twins grabbed him.

I was so upset about the loss I didn't even know what I was saying. There is a lot of talk about Mauer leaving but hopefully doesn't happen. Win Twins!

No matter how this series turns out, at least the Twins have received the respect they deserve.

The Twins are a scrappy team and, as a Yankee fan, I would like to congratulate them for a great season. Without a bad call and some bad luck it might have been a different series.

Speaking of bad luck I wonder how the Cardinals are going to spend their "Holliday" off? :D

And some basic baserunning skills; that would have helped too.

And a frontal lobotomy for Nick Punto would also help. He and Gomez have the combined IQs of a melon.

Anybody going to give the Yankees credit for the sweep? Anybody??

Yup congrats to the poster boys for steroids- A-Rod and Pettit. The whiney baby Posada had a big home run too.
When you have so much money you can go out and buy CC, Burnett, A-Rod, Matsui, Tschiera and anyone else you want, you are supposed to win. The sad thing is the Twins should have won Game 2 and had a real chance to win Game 3 even without their slugger Morneau. Only the brain farts of the manager and some incredibly stupid little league base running kept the Twins from making it really tough for the yanks.
Me, I'll be pulling for the Rockies now, but yes, congrats to the Bronx Bombers....

Bob, I just looked up irony in the dictionary and found this! And the Twins's owners have money, too, they just choose not to spend it. In fact, the Twins' owners are the richest in MLB, worth over $3 billion. Steinbrenner is worth $1.3 billion.

As much as I Hate Arod gotta give him credit. The pressure in pinstripes is to much for many to handle. Pohlads have money but he was a banker so every penny was always pinched. With all the money Pohlads son made producing Brokeback Mountain it's to bad he didn't put any into the Twins. Congrats to NY go crush the Angels.

The Twins are spending over $400 million on their new stadium.
Though don't know why they would want an open air stadium since
the first & last month of the season will be brutal playing outside.
Plus they had such an advantage playing in the dome, that may
not be the case in the new place.

Go Twins
 

As a die-hard Twins fan who also likes the Yankees, I shrug this one off as not meant to be. Twins certainly had their chances, and have no one to blame but themselves.

Twins could not hit with RISP. Span, Mauer and Cuddyer each hit .400 or better for the series, as did Punto. That's almost half of your lineup seeing and hitting the ball well, but the big hits were just not there. Twins were the only team in MLB to have four players with 25 HR and 90 RBI, yet the bashing never came. Kubel was 1-14 with nine strikeouts--that has more to do with the outcome than the pinheaded base-running plays, which, while not heady, were at least not short of hustle and effort.

I see a whole lot of upside next year. Our ten-game winner before the All Star game will be back, Morneau will hopefully be healthy, and the core will stay intact.

calvindog, really poor argument. When the Yankees are taking in probably $200 million a year than the Twins it does not make any business sense to try and match the yankees spending. Unless your owner has a wish before he dies to win the World Series it would not take long to drain the old funds in this venture. Not even George would spend that money if he did not have that kind of money coming in.

Lee

Nick Punto made one of the worst base running gaffes I have ever seen, given the circumstances. Yankees-Angels should be a barn burner!

Nobody says that the Twins have to spend as much as the Yankees; but perhaps they could spend as much as the Royals. Or the Reds. Or the Brewers. Look, if you're going to have the ready-made excuse that the reason you lost is because of money, why bother turning on the games at all? As Todd pointed out, the Twins had four guys with 25/90 (although Morneau was out), it's not like they don't have the talent. Add two decent pitchers to that team and teach them how to run the bases and the result may have been different in this series.

Why should the twins have won game 2, if your talking about the blowning foul ball call then the twins should not have been in the playoffs to begin with because the one Tiger player got hit by the ball in the 12th inning and they never called it. That would have given the Tigers the lead.

That would explain why I haven't been to a Reds game in 5 years. They have already said they are probably going to cut the payroll next season, but they expect people to spend their money to come out an see the same 4th place team from this season? If the team isn't going to make an effort to put out an attractive product, why should I make an effort to go watch them? Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?

Go Twins
 

The Twins do not need to spend money for its own sake--their payroll will rise this offseason and they presently spend more than last year's darlings in Tampa. Their payroll is slightly less than Texas and not dramatically lower than playoff teams Colorado and St. Louis. They also do not need to be taught anything--they are perennially one of the top three most fundamentally sound teams in all of baseball if not number one. Mistakes happen, and did.

My guess is that the team will spend the winter trying to sign Cabrera and Pavano, while working on Mauer. They will never spend huge dollars on a free agent pitcher, and pitching was not what cost them in the ALDS. They opened the series with a rookie #5 starter because of the way the regular season came down to the wire. In the other two games, the mighty Yankees "amassed" one run off starter Blackburn and two runs off starter Pavano, so I highly doubt some stud free agent would have done any better. The Twins had a 15 game winner who never got to throw and a 10 game winner through June on the shelf.

In sum, the Twins have won their division 5 of the last 8 seasons, and should win it again next year, barring injury and a healthy return for Morneau and Slowey.

because baseball is a profitable business. with luxury tax and merchandise revenue sharing, every year these kc, cincy, pittsburgh etc owners are getting a nice big check from mlb. contrary to all these owners with the projections of losing millions, baseball is still very much a thriving business.

and cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.

Amazing that the ump that made that call was once fired by MLB for being incompetent. He was out of baseball until he ran in to a buddy at a casino and got a job in the minors. He then came to the majors when the umps tried their ill-fated strike, as a scab.
That was the worst call I have ever seen in a post season game in 50 years of watching. The next worse was the call at 1b in the StL-KC WS.
Despite the call, the Twins STILL should have won the game. Nathan implodes, Gardy makes some bad decisions, etc. The Twins could have been up 2-1 playing today at the Dome but the more talented team won.

But you guys should not have even been in the playoffs. You got in because of a umpire making a bad call.

The whiney baby Posada had a big home run too.


Bob, I just looked up irony in the dictionary and found this!

Jeff- Posada should have kept it in the dugout. By throwing it around and making a media event out of bitching because Burnett and Girardi preferred Molina to catch Burnett he came off as a disgruntled, self-serving jerk. I had always liked Posada but he handled it horribly. Besides he looked awful in Game 1 behind the plate. :cool:

The Pohlad kids have plenty of money, they just don't want to spend it on the team. It will be interesting to see how much of an attempt they make to sign Maurer over the winter. I can see Buffet Bill Smith (GM) and the FO ending up trading Maurer ala Santana to the highest bidder and getting back a bag of rocks like they did in the Santana deal.
Todd- I get tired of hearing how it is not the "Twins way" to bring in good free agents as an excuse for being cheap. In 1987 they brought in Don Baylor, Jeff Reardon, Bert Blyleven, Dan Gladden and 4 years later brought in Jack Morris, Chilli Davis and we know how that worked out. Buffet Bill could have had Cabrera and Pavano all year long for peanuts if he had gotten off his duff during the winter meetings. Now the latest runor is that in order to sign Maurer there won't be anttempts to bring these 2 guys back next year. But of course we can give Nick "Bonehead" Punto a huge raise and extension and have him hit .230 again, making more than Slowey, Blackburn, Span, etc. Sickening.

It wasn't the bottom of the last inning. The last time I looked the home team still has a chance to bat in the bottom of the inning.
Apples and oranges.

Go Twins
 

Tbob, you have a selective memory. Seems to me you were ranting back in the first half of the season about how Smith should be fired and the team was no good, etc. and etc. I told you to relax and wait until the end of the season, and guess what, they were there in post-season again.

In '87, the Twins did not go out into the free agent market to acquire those players you named. Reardon and Gladden were acquired by trade before the season began, one considered a has been and the other a considered a never was. Their cost was cheap and they blossomed--something the Twins have enjoyed before. Blyleven had been acquired nearly two years prior, again by trade (for Jay Bell, who wound up scoring the winning run off of Mariano Rivera in the 2001 WS), and was himself in his 18th season by 1987. Baylor was acquired late, playing in only 20 games and retiring after the following season. So there was no magic, open wallet that led to that '87 crown.

In '91, Morris signed as a free agent because no one else would pay what he wanted, and he got to pitch back home. He lasted that one year. Chili Davis was a nice free agent signing, but hardly the kind that leads The Sporting News to stop the presses and generate a new cover. Not really different than signing Joe Crede this year.

The Twins tried to get Cabrera early and didn't really need Pavano until Slowey got hurt and the starters struggled in June. Neither was available at the start of the season, and the price was too high on Cabrera for a long time. And what difference would that have made, really? The very most that I see is that they may have won the division outright and had their rotation set better for the playoffs than having to start Duensing in game 1. That's it. Hardly a reason to break out the torches and/or call for a blood letting.

I haven't looked hard at the upcoming free agents, but can tell you now that things won't change dramatically if at all. The Twins will make efforts to sign Cabrera and Pavano, maybe Crede too, in efforts to show Mauer that they are serious about keeping the core intact. After all, I hear nothing but bitching that free agents leave because the team has no chance of winning, and further bitching that the team does not lock up its good young players while it has the chance. Well, that's exactly what they will focus on this Winter, and if you believe they should do all that while at the same time competing for the Sabathias and Texeiras of the world, I respectfully submit that you're dreamin.

I doubt the Reds will be able to give Aaron Harang away at this point after he's been terrible the last few years and finished this season on the DL. Rolen won't be going anywhere since they were already out of it when they traded for him and they specifically said it was mostly a move for next season to add veteran leadership and upgrade the third base position. They do have a lot of young talent, but eventually all of those top 10 draft picks should pan out sooner or later. Still, the Reds would basically have to have a season like Tampa Bay did where all of the young players come together at the same time since they will all be traded for more prospects as soon as they become "too expensive".

Todd, the Twins are paying Punto more than their #2, #3 and #5 pitchers in the rotation and we all know what a disaster Punto was until the final 2 weeks of the season. The Pohlads (like Griffith before them) are CHEAP. I guess if you want to call it the "Twins' Way," then the Twins Way is to underpay whenever possible, to take reaches in the Draft who are "signable" instead of the best players available (Maurer the exception), and to ignore free agents unless they are scrap heap players like Craig Monroe, Eddie Guardado, Mike Lamb, Livan Hernandez, the steroid 2b from Seattle, Adam Everett, the bust from the Padres, Ayala, the list goes on and on.
You are probably right on the '87 acquistions, a couple of them came in trades and were as you described "never-wases and has-beens."
I don't think I am selective on Buffet Bill Smith. He is a disaster. He got a bag of rocks for Johan Santana when he could have had Jacoby Ellsbury and or Bucholtz/Masterson or Lester. He traded away last year's MVP on the Rays, Jason Barrett who I believe hit over .300 again this year and a pitcher who was the ALCS MVP last year for Delmon Young who is an overweight singles hitter with no power who hits .275 and fields like he is on ice skates.
Smith has been an absolute disaster and I don't think he has redeemed himself with Crede who was hurt half the time and batted about .235 or Pavano and Cabrera. I have to disagree with you on Cabrera, he WAS available this winter. No one else wanted him but the A's and yet we thought Punto and Casilla were going to be the second coming of Nellie Fox and Luis Aparicio and we see where that got us.
A lot of Twins fans are hot at Smith and believe he has one more year to prove he is capable of being a major league GM. I am in that group. Just like last year he needs to shore up the pen. He needs to bring in some right handed power hitting as the Twins look sick against lefties. He needs a real
3b and a real 2b. Tolbert is another .235 hitter and Casilla is a head case. Buscher is a .235 hitter. Smith failed to bring up Valencia and Tolleson to play 3rd and second so we could see how they would fare against MLB competition.
Finally, I will tell you this Todd, down here in the SEC (the best college baseball in the nation) the coaches pray that their juniors they desperately want back are drafted by the Twins because they know the Twins won't pay enough and they will have their players back. The Dean kid, a power hitter, great defensive player and team leader for LSU is a perfect example. The Twins low-balled him and he is back in school.
Jeff is right, the Twins DO have the money, they just won't spend it.