Trading with Dealers at Card Shows?
 

Hi!

I will be attending the Burbank show in Ontario CA this week. It my first card show in 35yrs!

Im only into pre 1975 vintage baseball and my objectives are upgrading a few cards from a few sets AND picking up some other HOFers.

Briefly, whats the best way to approach a trade with a dealer?
What should I expect in terms of value of my cards in a trade?
What "book" values are most commonly used?
Any specific signs to recognize in dealers dealing a trade fairly?...not so fairly?

Any and all advice appreciated.

-os73

1) Ask the dealer if they trade.
2) Tell them what card you’re interested in and what you have to offer and trade.

It’s really that simple. I personally don’t get involved in book values, or comps or anything like that although others probably will. When I’m trading, I decide “do I like your card better than I like my card”? I couldn’t care less what some book or website says the value of either is; it’s really just a matter of what I like better and if I’m willing to give up what I have to obtain what you have. I’m trading cards, not my $50 bill for your two $20’s and a $10. That’s how I trade. YMMV.

Briefly, whats the best way to approach a trade with a dealer?
Ask if the dealer is willing to trade. Some will, some won't. Trading is cumbersome and many dealers will decline unless you have something they really want.

What should I expect in terms of value of my cards in a trade?
Really depends on what cards they are and their value. The more desirable and valuable a card is, the more you will get in trade value. If it is common lower-value stuff you may not get much value and/or interest in a trade.

What "book" values are most commonly used?
There are not many dealers that use book values these days. Majority will go by recent comps of actual sales.

Any specific signs to recognize in dealers dealing a trade fairly?...not so fairly?
No way of knowing until you attempt a trade. Trading is a two-way street. Just don't agree to trade if the terms don't seem fair to you.

Biggest advice is to come prepared with what you value your cards at. That will help save a ton of time when negotiating a trade.

Love this.

A dealer’s primary objective is to make money, not collect cards they never intend to liquidate (or else they’d be a collector). Thus they may want to take two bites of the apple, depending on how bad you want the card they have and how rare or valuable it is. They may take your card(s) in trade at 60-90% of VCP comps, so they can turn it around and sell for profit even in a down market or if they need to hold it for a period of time. They may also over value their card to maximize its return. Just be prepared for it not to be an equitable deal if you’re trading cardboard for cardboard, vs cash for cardboard. The deal ultimately depends on many factors just try to find as common ground as possible and enjoy the process.

Come by table 634 and say hello; I'll be there with a ton of set-building and singles inventory.

I always want to trade. In terms of what to expect, it is all about what you have and what you want. Book value is secondary to demand for the items you are selling. I have significant expenses and I am trying to earn a profit. That means that when it comes to how I assess your cards, what your cards are worth is less critical than how readily they sell. If you have a PSA 9 1987 Fleer Jordan for trade and you want a stack of lesser cards and commons, I will essentially offer you the full retail value as a trade value with my cards because I can turn the Jordan quickly and I have profit baked into the price of my cards. Conversely, if you want a PSA 9 1987 Jordan and you are offering 1970s commons for it, I won't make the deal except at an extreme advantage for me because it will take me a whole lot of time and effort to liquidate the commons and I am giving up a readily sold high demand card. Another factor is how I price examples of your cards. Your card may 'book' at $10 but if it is common and I am already selling three of them at $5 and they aren't moving, my valuation is going to be about fifty cents or a buck at most.

Yup, I was gonna say, you're not going to find too many dealers willing to trade their fairly liquid $2000 card for 10 $200 cards, but you might be able to find one to trade their 10 $200 cards for your $2000 card.

As usual, Adam brings up some really great points, and this seems like what you should expect when approaching dealers who are interested in trades. Obviously, some dealers won’t be interested in a trade, so you can just move along.

You didn’t ask, but I’ll volunteer anyway…On the flip side, I’m not a dealer. But I do hold some cards for trade. Typically it’s obscure and hard to find stuff where I have duplicates, or picked it up not for my own collection but for trade bait, and I’m primarily looking to trade it for other obscure and hard to find stuff that I need to complete my collection. Most everything else can just be bought or sold for cash. But the rare and obscure stuff often requires being willing to give up something equally rare and obscure.

Simply, bend over and grab your ankles. It's like going to a car dealer and expecting a fair price on your trade in. Seriously, negotiate only with cash.

Trading with a dealer?

Sounds good, doesn’t work.

+1

I learned a hard lesson back in the 1990s, while in the Navy, home in Coral Springs on leave, spent too much money while home and had to get back to Key West and also live to the next payday. Taking out a loan with a Top Secret/SCI clearance wasn't an option. So I foolishly sold valuable vintage cards to a card shop dealer.

The lesson, and it applies to trading as well with dealers:

Whatever I have isn't worth crap.

May sound funny, but it is the truth. It's just how it is.

Whatever the dealer or seller has is worth a fortune.

Guys, i think that is a misread of the situation. You're not trading Even Steven with a fellow collector. Of course the dealer is going to need an advantage: he has overhead and costs to cover, a profit to make, and inventory turnover to consider. From my column on what a dealer faces in costs from last September's Burbank Card Show at the Anaheim Convention Center:

"The convention room rate for three nights is a total of $597. Sounds good. Then the add-ons. You want to park your car? Another $30 a night. You want to use the internet? Add another $14.99 per. Then the tourist taxes add another 20% to the whole. My $597 stay becomes an $880 stay (rounded). Add to that at least another $50 a day to eat, and my overhead leaps to $1,030. Say I did a really good job of buying and I make 50% for each card I sell. Add that overhead to the costs. The first $1,030 of my net profit (excluding the cost of the cards I sell) goes to overhead. Do the math: if my profit averages 50%, then $2,060 in gross sales is my break-even point. But wait, I also have to pay sales taxes since I am doing retail and I remit my taxes like the good citizen I am; render unto Caesar, etc. Add about 10% to the total, pushing my break-even point to $2,266. That’s the risk I take when I set up. Every sale goes towards covering that nut before I make a dime."

That's why I have to have an advantage on every trade, whether it is based on value or based on desirability of the cards in question. Without it, I cannot afford to be there and there is no card show for you to attend.

I’ve found the most successful trades at shows for me have been a combination of money and cards that are either duplicates or ones that I am ready to find a new home for

I’m not too concerned about the trade value as long as it’s somewhat reasonable. When you add cash in, it helps a ton.

I was able to pick up two of my favorite cards this way at the last two shows I’ve been to

A big part of the equation is the time value of money. If you want a very liquid card don't expect to be able to trade cards that will sit in a showcase for months or longer. It's not even necessarily about the dollar values as much as it is speed with which the dealer can monetize the trade.

You have a '52 Topps Mantle you want to trade for 100 PSA 5 1933 Goudey commons? You may well get 1 to 1 value. You want to do that trade in reverse you'd be lucky to get 50% on the Goudeys.

To the OP:

I've made trades with dealers a few times over the years, but it was just when 1. I wanted an item really bad and didn't have the cash to cover at that time (I don't use credit for hobbies), or 2. When I had a lot of wiggle room on my end so I could let the dealer get his 20-30% cut on my item and I still came out ahead.
From my experience it's also easier to trade higher dollar items with dealers. The lower value your item is the less interest it will typically receive. Not sure I've ever been able to make a trade on a sub $100.00 item since I was a kid.

Absolutely, and that is where it gets interesting. If I can get my costs covered with the cash part, then I have a lot more flexibility with the trade part.

I haven't done it with cards, but have sold cards to dealers.
It usually works best if you think like a dealer.

Selling, I almost prefer dealers. No messing around with fussiness about condition or anything, just a straight "I can pay X" by now we should all know what general commodity cards are worth.
Usually I just ask if they're buying and it's usually only certain things. Or I just show them what I have and tell them to ignore any pricing I had on for my own reference or a selling trip to the flea market.


I have used a different approach with a stamp once.
I had a rare one, and a dealer wanted it, made an offer, but I'd only just gotten it, and wanted closer to retail as finding another was unlikely.
He had one I wanted, but I couldn't afford it.
Didn't even think of swapping....
Did sell him a different one.

2 years later, we both still had them, so I reminded him of our earlier discussion, and said "we both have the same stuff after 2 years, any interest in swapping so I get something I need and you get to freshen the inventory a little.?"
Vaiues had slightly changed, but mine plus cash got me a stamp I would never have afforded otherwise.

In the end if the dealer will trade, it's all about presenting some sort of added value to them, either liquidity or adding fresh stuff to their inventory.

Adam, what you articulate is something not a lot of collectors understand, but maybe more importantly they mostly don't care. That must make it especially difficult for a dealer today with so much information at everyone's fingertips. How many times will a collector pull out eBay comps and walk away from anything higher priced than that, whether a trade or a straight sale? As a dealer, how do you navigate through that conversation/ negotiation, or do you just move on if you know early on that you are too far apart?

Myself, as a collector that would like to set up more often at shows, the break-even point is probably the #1 thing keeping me away. I can't get over my collector mentality and the fact that I would have to sell so much just to "get my money back" is akin to just giving that stuff away - and I can't do it!
Ray

Exactly why I haven't set up on my own at a show in over 30 years. It's not necessary anymore, and the overhead is just a silly waste of money. Sitting there all weekend is a waste of time, not to mention any travel involved. Everything can be done from the comfort of home. If any interactions are particularly unwelcome or aggravating, it's a beautiful thing to be able to stop communication with ease from this side of the monitor. That's sometimes difficult to do in-person at a show, not to mention people who want to talk your ear off as opposed to buy anything.

Setting up at shows also covers a little more. Two that come to mind are the chance I say chance which is slim nowadays with the mass amount of major AHs set up at shows, to Score on buying a deal. Many dealers won’t tell you that but that’s the real. Building relationships face-to-face is also a big deal with people many of whom have great cards. It’s making personal connections.

As my prewar collection grew and eBay's tax reporting gets more cut-and-dry, I thought a lot more about trading because it defers an expected tax hit for just listing stuff online. Adam's the first in this thread to address taxes. How many of you have tax reporting in mind when thinking about trades vs. sales? If you're a dealer or talking with a dealer, do you consider that as a factor when determining trade value?

I guess somebody had to bring up taxes.

As your friendly local CPA, I will hasten to observe that trades technically no longer defer your income tax hit. If you bought your piece for $100 a decade ago and trade it for another piece today that is worth $500, then you have a taxable gain of $400, even though you got no cash. Add enough zeros on to these examples, as you're talking about some real potential tax.

Prior to 2017 tax reform, you could defer your taxes this way through a like kind exchange (also known as a 1031 exchange). But no longer, because the only like kind exchanges permitted under current law are for real estate.

Naturally, there is no reporting when it comes to trades. And I'm not your mother, so I can't make you file your taxes correctly. But I will tell you that interest and penalties for filing your taxes incorrectly are no joke. And I'm sure we are all diligent about being good citizens who pay our fair share as required under the law, even when we don't agree with it. But now you know the law, and knowing is half the battle.

Ray, I just shrug it off. If you can't make a deal, you can't make a deal. I'd say roughly 2/3 of the offers I get at shows are no deals, either because the buyer wants too much for the items or I have no use for them. The worst thing I can do is make a bad deal because I want to do a deal. I refuse a lot of deals that I do not think will pay off. I'd rather just go to the beach instead of wasting my time. I make my best offer and if the counterparty says no, that's fine.

BillyCox, if you don't enjoy the atmosphere and interactions at a show, setting up isn't for you. It's a public-facing business, so you have to enjoy interacting with the public. As a frustrated stand-up, I like having an audience, so I find the interactions invigorating, especially when I get to test new material on the customers. I get that some people do not like that focus. Hell, based on how I see some dealers act, I'd say that a good 20% of dealers should not be working in a public-facing business. I happen to enjoy it (way more than lawyering), so even if the money isn't great, the activity is a pleasant way to spend a weekend. I meet some really interesting people, see things I would not otherwise see, and make contacts that can pay off later. More than once I've been working at a show, had a conversation with someone, and ended up being referred to someone else for a deal that I would never have made without being there and meeting that person. I once got to spend an afternoon picking at the estate of a legendary Hollywood mogul because I was set up at a show and had a conversation with an attendee who knew the heir to the estate and made the introduction. I got some good stuff but even more fun, I got to go through a treasure trove of studio history and material that would have made a pretty good museum collection.

Johnny, there are still buying opportunities, but they are pedestrian. I will buy anything as long as the per unit price works for me. The reality is that you can patiently buy basic commodity cards across a table and gradually turn a profit and build up an inventory. The singles add up too; you don't need a homer every time.

I set up at shows every weekend and I rarely trade. Those offering trades rarely have anything I want. I would rather buy your cards than trade for them. Also, setting up at shows is rarely a waste of my time. Sales are generally pretty good, buys are generally pretty good and the social interaction is priceless.

Good point about liquidity. I’ve observed to get huge deals done, sellers look for at least 10% cash, which is a benefit to buyer as it helps prevent further dilution of their position. But if the buyer gets a dream card they love and look at every day, that’s their #1 priority and dealers know that leverage point.

From my experiences, it take much too long to try and make a trade. You will end up missing deals at other tables, and the dealer will end up losing customers or not giving you their full attention.

When I attend shows as a customer, I tend to agree, which is why I don't bother. I used to trade every year at the National with another boxing collector and our deals got so complex and time consuming that after the last one I said that I felt like I'd just given birth. It was a worse time suck than a damn rotisserie league draft.

Trade--
 

In my opinion trade factors will depend if cards or raw for raw--Raw for graded, graded for graded, and so on---a lot of folks wants everything graded --it some cases if they think the raw star cards will grade good, they may be more interested--

A friend of mine walks around the Nashville Card show with graded stuff usually leaves with 2000 to 4000 bucks in his pocket taking home cards offered 5,000 plus he feels worth more--maybe sentimental, etc. He asked me to go to the next Dallas Show, but the drive leaves me out--

Anyway a lot of factors depends on what you have --good luck!!

Great discussion on this thread; Adam's input is especially insightful and helpful.

I have sold to dealers and I have certainly bought from dealers, but I doubt I have ever really traded anything unless it also included cash. Trades are tough period, especially so for many of the reasons discussed here.

I once did a 3-way deal with two different dealers that involved cash and cards -- I sold a 1948/49 leaf Paige to a dealer, but for an amount equal to what I needed to acquire three Wagner E cards from a different dealer. In my mind, I traded the Paige for the Wagners, while one guy ended up with cash and the other a card.

I can think of very few trades I have done even with friend/collectors. Me and some of my T206 friends have pulled off a few trades over the years, but its tough and almost always involves some exchange of cash because the values are rarely equal.

trades with dealers at shows
 

Interesting topic and thoughtful responses. I attend a good monthly show
and trade maybe every other time I'm there. The key for the collector is to
take an accurate measure of the dealer. Test his knowledge a bit, look at the
prices of his cards in the case. Are they sky high? Trading probably won't
happen. We all know watch words that are red flags- "I've got a lot in these
cards so the trade will have to benefit me" or similar comments, are an
immediate non-starter (as is "My cards are high end and yours aren't" types
of nonsense). It's been my general experience that, if the collector
has desirable trade material, most experienced dealers will recognize it and
reciprocate. Reasonable, knowledgeable people recognize quality and will at
least listen. It's often worth it for collectors and dealers, as trading is a
time honored way to obtain material. Trent King

Buyers should first reach agreement on the value of the seller’s card to move it immediately for a guarantee. Work it down as much as possible as profits are made when you buy, not when you sell. From there, for trade bait start out with your highest value card and something unique that will help differentiate the seller from others (eg Joe Jackson or Honus Wagner playing days card for a high end trade). Know the VCP high, middle and low comps and have a value in mind for yours so you don’t waste time thinking the assessed value over too long. Continue to offer of the next highest or unique card in trade until you reach a point of a complete trade or add in a cash kicker. A well thought out negotiation plan can get a deal done in minutes even for high five figure cards, which the seller will greatly appreciate.

I'm sorry, I have a hard time reading iambic pentameter

There's nothing better in life than observing at a table hearing a dealer say before a trade, "Let me see what I have into it". And hearing the buyer say, "I don't care WTF you have into it". :D

I'm sure every dealer looks at trading differently, but for the ones that will trade, you just have to give them a reason to want to do it. If you offer them a $200 card for a $200 card, they are going to be indifferent and probably say no. But if your card(s) is easier to move, or you offer a card worth $250, then they have a reason to do it.

Probably as entertaining as hearing a customer lecturing a dealer as to what comps are on the card (most of the time comps on an card with crappy eye appeal) and hearing the dealer say offer to buy a nice example of the card at those comps and don’t care what comps are and watch the buyer get pissed and storm off.

No more honest straightforward words have been spoken other than what you just said that’s exactly what happens!

This situation happened a few times at the last Philly Show. I only wish I brought popcorn to enjoy the show :D

Agree there William. I'll see you at Chantilly. Attachment 610186

I don’t think I have ever done a trade with William, but I have bought many cards from him over many years - a very fair and reasonable seller, and a good guy to boot.

trading
 

I think it's fair to say that, if both parties retain even a shadow of their
original enjoyment of the hobby, trading is not merely possible but actually
enjoyable. Trent King

As a collector / buyer, I approach the subject of trades on whether or not it makes sense for what I desire and what I want to get rid of sometimes over and above comps and values. Dealers are not going to be likely to make trades that are not financially advantageous to them, so I agree with what's already been said in terms of hot cards / liquidity vs. probably giving a much lesser percentage (if they are even willing to do the deal) on stuff that is just going to collect dust in their showcase for awhile. Because of these variables, sometimes trying to do straight trades working towards set dollar amounts can be an exercise in frustration.

A few examples on trades I have done in the past year or so:

At a show late last summer, I traded a '65 Mantle in a PSA 2 plus some cash for a '58 Mantle in a PSA 3. This was a no-brainer to me because my '65 Mantle was not a good looking 2; the card was a bit faded. Value wise to comps it worked, and I was much happier with my new card.

A few hours later I brought the same dealer a bunch of cards trying to trade for a '63 Rose he had in a PSA 7. This deal was a long shot from the word go. Because I would have been trading many for one on a high end card, he wasn't able to give me much more than 50% comp trade value on the cards I was offering. So I would have wound up having to give up a significant number of things - maybe like 15 to one - to get the Rose. In the end we gave up because it became obvious to me that the stuff I would have had to give up was not worth it to me in the long run to trade for just one card.

Fast forward to a different show last month. I traded a different, lower grade Rose RC in an PSA 1 to a dealer for a nicer, raw Gibson RC that later graded an SGC 4. I had to throw in some cash as well to make it worth it for the dealer. Most people looking at the total value of what I did with the cash included wouldn't have thought it was a fair deal, but it made sense to me because I wanted the card I was trading for much more than the sunk cost I had in my lower grade card, and the cash was much less than it would have cost to buy the card outright. Deals like this don't always make sense, but can sometimes work as a collector if you know what you are giving up and don't mind if you can get something with a trade that you wouldn't be able to otherwise.

Heh. I run into this all the time and my answer is usually "that's very interesting, thanks for the information. I think you should buy it on eBay." Gets some real head-scratching in response.

The comp bandits don't think deeper about what the comp represents. A sale online and in person are not the same, especially in lower priced cards. The financial reality is that most buyers at a show are already enjoying a substantial discount over the online cost to them simply by taking shipping out of the equation on a card worth $20-$50, so the online comp isn't really apples to oranges. But I'd say that a substantial majority of collectors forget the shipping costs when looking at an online price.

There really isn't a rule for how to make a trade because there isn't a static situation and there are a variety of factors going into it on both sides. At best, there are guidelines for what to expect, but every situation has its own norms. There are so many factors:

Is the card a hard to move niche card not blazing condition?

Is it an eBay or smaller auction kind of a card? If I sell it there, I don't get the market price, I net out 80%-85% of market with the vig, so if I can trade it at a full retail valuation, I am already ahead of what I could net by selling it.

Is the item in my wheelhouse and can I trade into something I really collector or deal in? if not, I am going to pay less for it.

Is the card slabbed or raw and whichever it is, does it fit with what I do? I deal primarily in raw vintage cards. Many newer dealers lack the expertise to handle raw cards and will trade at a premium to get slabs.

Is there an opportunity to leverage my knowledge of a niche? If I find a dealer who has certain types of cards but little apparent knowledge of them, I can cherry-pick all of the underpriced raw cards he had in his inventory and end up with cards that I would retail at substantially more than the value of what I traded. Many newbs are unaware of the price multiple on high numbered cards or variations, for example, and if I am trading into $3-$5 commons at $0.50 each, I am going to do very well when I sell them to set builders. One of my niche areas is printing freaks. I found one batch of cards with some really radical miscuts and misprints and the dealer was so amused that I was buying those 'crappy' cards that he even joked about it with his co-worker. Yeah, and I am pulling $10-$100 cards out of your dollar bin, so feel free to laugh away.

It's kind of like anything in life where you have to add value for someone if you want them to do a deal with you or help you out. I have a bunch of hobby friends who have already provided me a lot a value and I'll do lateral trades or whatever with them no problem. I have a few guys who offer me lots at prices where I can make a few bucks and they like that I pay immediately and don't haggle. Sometimes I add up what I'm getting and I'm not sure it's quite break-even but I'll say yes anyway because I figure the next batch will probably be a good buy.

I have a buddy who also sells stuff and a few times he and I have made a deal where one of us gets a very big card and the other gets a big stack of inventory. Probably neither of us would do that type of trade with a stranger but we knew the negotiations would be easy, and it has worked out great.

With a dealer you don't know, it's tougher. Just have to start by asking if they trade and see how they react. If they seem hesitant or not into it, probably try another dealer.

People who set up at card shows are on a business trip trying to make money. It’s not a get together of 12 year olds in their parents’ garage.

They will trade with you only if they size you up and quickly assess that you are a rube who doesn’t know what he has.

Not true of all dealers of course. Only about 98% of them.

When people start looking at comps, I usually laugh. Generally speaking, I don't want to sell or trade in average looking cards. I am not a slab collector though...

I received this in my last trade (done on the BST) and gave up an equally nice card...
.

I've never been a trader.

I don't know how you trade without being cognizant of market value (comps).

If my card just sold for $500 last week, and your card sold last month for $300, why would I trade you a $500 card for a $300 card? Wouldn't it make sense to sell my card for around $500 and try to find the other card for around $300. And pocket the rest?

Maybe the comps are stale and unreliable for obscure stuff like Leon references above. Or maybe in thinly sold cards you will do anything to grab something. Or maybe people just want to make a trade for the sake of making a trade because it feels fun. A few people on BST have approached me about trades and it typically goes like this:

My card/photo is for sale for $2000.

Hey would you be interested in any of these?

I look and "these" are worth (based on comps) like $1000.

Nah, not really looking for a trade.

My own experience trading
 

For me as a customer, trading cards with other collectors is a big part of the hobby. Also, trading with dealers where it makes sense, and I have done a number of large (6 figure, sometimes) trades at shows with some of my favorite guys with them on the dealer side of the table.

From my perspective a dealer is not generally trading for their own PC, even if they have a PC at all. Many don't collect and just see cards as inventory which if I were them, I'd agree and understand entirely.

Assuming this, the best trades for my dealer friends and for me was an understanding that the trade balance/imbalance comes down to liquidity of the cards I'm offering in trade. Highly liquid cards are often seen as cash equivalents and will obviously trade at nearer to true market value than less liquid product that a dealer will have to haul from show to show for months or more and not allow them to recoup their money.

One dealer in particular, my dear friend Ashish Jain for example once told me that he sees great cards as cash equivalents and that he can make money on those great cards in either a trade up or a trade down scenario at a fair price. Not me gouging him nor him generally gouging me. Fair- a win-win in many ways.

I think trading is both fun and a key part of the card experience, again, it all coming down to the question of liquidity and being the "right cards" for the particular dealer you may be looking to trade with.

Trades usually only work with those that want/like to trade and we are few and far between. We all know the guy that is always offering stuff for trade. Then when you contact them they want a T206 Wagner and a kidney for their beat up Gregg Jeffries rookie.

I wish I had a dime for all of the times I was offered junk for gold!

and a random card....
.

I enjoy giving Ashsh 95% of all my business at cards shows.:p I even worked out a trade with him for a "sought after" dandee Mantle that was on my last nerve. Was in and out of the Burbank show in 45 minutes yesterday with a "Big" Card...and no waiting in line at "Beckett" to get the broken slab reholdered. It was worth the $500 hit. He will sell it in a minute. I also had to throw in a chunk of cash, :D for an old B & W card with low eye appeal & low pops. The Mantle was a boil on my ass for 3 months like no other card and deal I ever made. It was like an old car that keeps breaking down...couldn't wait to get rid of it.

2nd show in a year (Last Burbank show was my first in 32 years.) Also my first "trade" in 35 years.