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-   -   Foxx vs Gehrig (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=133274)

Touch'EmAll 02-12-2011 01:30 PM

Foxx vs Gehrig
 
Here are some obvious characteristics:

Gehrig played for the almighty Yankees - Foxx did not
Gehrig hit behing Babe Ruth - Foxx did not
Gehrig played only 1st base - Foxx played several positions
Gehrig played consecutive game streak (does that make him a better player?)
Foxx could hit 'em farther

What if the tables were turned - Foxx was the Yankee and Gehrig was not? How then would be the public perception of Foxx vs. Gehrig?

Which player drew more intentional BB's per at bat?

Which player was more feared by the pitchers of the era?

Which player would you take for your team?

Seems to me Gehrig could be overrated and Foxx underrated - Thoughts?


edited - I know O/T, but I value the opinions of Net54'ers - Thanks

D. Bergin 02-12-2011 01:45 PM

I don't think Gehrig is over-rated, but I do think Foxx is under-rated.

Peter_Spaeth 02-12-2011 01:51 PM

Interestingly, Foxx amassed extremely impressive stats despite doing diddly after age 33, an age when many players are still in their prime.

bcbgcbrcb 02-12-2011 02:29 PM

Probably the two best first basemen in baseball history and playing during the same era no less.

Touch'EmAll 02-12-2011 02:47 PM

From article...
 
In 1932, Foxx enjoyed his best season when he hit 58 home runs. That was a record for right handed hitters at the time although Ruth had the overall record with 60 homers in 1927. The most interesting statistic for Foxx's 1932 season, wasn't how many homers he hit, but how many he lost. Two home runs were taken away because of rain, and approximately 10 home runs taken away because of newly constructed outfield screens in Cleveland, St. Louis and Philadelphia, that were not erected until after Ruth hit 60. All in all, poor Jimmie lost 12 home runs, which would have givin him a total of 70. Does the number 70 sound familiar?

Many observers claim that Foxx hit more tape-measure homers than anyone in history including Ruth and Mantle. In fact, Foxx may have hit the longest home run in Yankee Stadium history, despite the fact that Mantle has received the accolades for the same feat. Mantle's blast, which is recognized as the furthest ball hit at Yankee Stadium, hit the facade at the top of the third deck in right field. Foxx hit his blast only three feet from the top of the third deck facade in left field which is considerably deeper than right field. No IBM "Tale of the Tape" existed when he needed it. Foxx was also the most versatile of the 500 home run club. He played every position except second base, and even pitched for the Philadelphia Phillies at the end of his career. Mr. Versatile pitched a total of 23 innings with an earned run average of only 1.57.

celoknob 02-12-2011 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb (Post 870856)
Probably the two best first basemen in baseball history and playing during the same era no less.

Maybe, and no doubt they are among the greatest, but they also played during the 1930s when offensive stats were inflated for everyone.

Chesbro41 02-12-2011 03:27 PM

I'm sure I'm biased because (disclaimer) Gehrig happens to be my favorite player of all time.

I think you can take Ruth out of the equation because he seemed to perform better as Ruth declined ('34) and when he was no longer there through '38 (when the disease started impacting his play).

I personally think Gehrig was a better all around hitter because he walked more and K'd less. One has to wonder where his stats would be right now had he not had the terrible disease. (He probably only had another few years left but still).

Foxx had better power though.

howard38 02-12-2011 03:47 PM

home/road
 
Foxx appears to have benefitted greatly from his home parks whereas despite the short LF porch of Yankee Stadium Gehrig actually hit better on the road.

Foxx home: .345 BA/.453 OBP/.663 SA road: .307/.405/.561
Gehrig home: .329/.436/.620 road: .351/.458/.644

I'm not sure how much batting behind Ruth helped except that it must have helped his RBI total a great deal. I'd think the arrangement would have been more beneficial to Ruth.

Obviously Foxx would be more famous if he had been a Yankee and I think Gehrig gets a little too much "credit" for his streak but it's also obvious (to me anyway) that Gehrig was the better hitter.

Jim VB 02-13-2011 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb (Post 870856)
Probably the two best first basemen in baseball history and playing during the same era no less.

I believe Albert Pujols may have something to say about that, before he is done.

MooseWithFleas 02-13-2011 09:29 AM

1.) Pujols
2.) Gehrig
3.) Foxx
4.) Bagwell
5.) Thomas

Gehrig is rated pretty fairly, but Foxx is not talked about enough. Both are great players, but Gehrig gets the edge.

Robextend 02-13-2011 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooseWithFleas (Post 871044)
1.) Pujols
2.) Gehrig
3.) Foxx
4.) Bagwell
5.) Thomas

Gehrig is rated pretty fairly, but Foxx is not talked about enough. Both are great players, but Gehrig gets the edge.

If you are talking offensive stats only and discounting the fact he was DH for a few years, Frank Thomas is better than Bagwell. I don't even think there is an argument there. But obviously if you include defense then a good argument can be made.

Bobsbats 02-13-2011 10:49 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.) Pujols
2.) Gehrig
3.) Foxx
4.) Bagwell
5.) Thomas

Gehrig is rated pretty fairly, but Foxx is not talked about enough. Both are great players, but Gehrig gets the edge.

Bagwell and Frank Thomas ? Besides the fact that Frank Thomas was a DH for a long time.....both are good players, but don't belong in the same sentence as Pujols,Foxx and Gehrig.
How about names like Greenberg, Sisler, McCovey.

Maybe:
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Pujols
Sisler

Mark 02-13-2011 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobsbats (Post 871056)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe:
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Pujols
Sisler

Now that is a good group of players. To ask which one is better is like looking at the Alps and trying to figure out which mountain peak is higher.

tedzan 02-13-2011 01:43 PM

Jimmy Foxx's tremendous HR
 
Hey guys....

Jimmy Foxx once drove a baseball so hard and high that it almost went out of Yankee Stadium's left field stands. In 1937 Foxx connected on
one of Lefty Gomez's pitches and rocketed it up so deep into the 3rd deck in Yankee Stadium, that the ball nearly sailed thru the clearance
between the seats and the upper deck ceiling. It was projected that this tremendous HR would have traveled 600 feet, if it had cleared the
Stadium.

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/jimmyfoxxsilverdollar.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


As Mel Allen would have said......" How about that ? "


TED Z

MooseWithFleas 02-13-2011 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend (Post 871046)
If you are talking offensive stats only and discounting the fact he was DH for a few years, Frank Thomas is better than Bagwell. I don't even think there is an argument there. But obviously if you include defense then a good argument can be made.

Yes, defense is included which is why I put Bagwell over Thomas.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobsbats (Post 871056)
Bagwell and Frank Thomas ? Besides the fact that Frank Thomas was a DH for a long time.....both are good players, but don't belong in the same sentence as Pujols,Foxx and Gehrig.
How about names like Greenberg, Sisler, McCovey.

Maybe:
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Pujols
Sisler

Thomas played 47% of his games at first, so we can't consider him a sole DH like we could do with Edgar or Big Papi.

I expected to get some flack (and probably more) since we are on a vintage board, but Bags and Thomas surpass both Sisler and Greenberg.

After Sisler's battle with sinusitis during the 1923 season his play had noticeably declined. In fact, after that season, he had a 97 OPS+ for the rest of his career, making him slightly below average. His prime only lasted 6 years, where as Bagwell had a prime that lasted 12-13 years and Thomas had a prime of 8 years, with a few fantastic seasons spattered in after that. Sisler ranks in the 14-16 range.

Greenberg missed a significant portion of his prime due to the war, when he was playing he was right on par with Thomas and Bagwell. Had he gotten those 3+ seasons back, he would rank right with them and I wouldn't argue if you placed Greenberg at 3, 4, or 5. The missed time bumps him down to the 5-8 range with Mize, Thome, and Murray.

The case that I always find most intriguing is Dick Allen. If he wasn't a complete head-case and avoided injuries (some of which stemming from said head-caseness), he could easily be number 3 on this list.

Mark 02-13-2011 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooseWithFleas (Post 871114)
Yes, defense is included which is why I put Bagwell over Thomas.
Thomas played 47% of his games at first, so we can't consider him a sole DH like we could do with Edgar or Big Papi.

I expected to get some flack (and probably more) since we are on a vintage board, but Bags and Thomas surpass both Sisler and Greenberg.

After Sisler's battle with sinusitis during the 1923 season his play had noticeably declined. In fact, after that season, he had a 97 OPS+ for the rest of his career, making him slightly below average. His prime only lasted 6 years, where as Bagwell had a prime that lasted 12-13 years and Thomas had a prime of 8 years, with a few fantastic seasons spattered in after that. Sisler ranks in the 14-16 range.

Greenberg missed a significant portion of his prime due to the war, when he was playing he was right on par with Thomas and Bagwell. Had he gotten those 3+ seasons back, he would rank right with them and I wouldn't argue if you placed Greenberg at 3, 4, or 5. The missed time bumps him down to the 5-8 range with Mize, Thome, and Murray.

Sisler's prime was super-prime.

MooseWithFleas 02-13-2011 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark (Post 871115)
Sisler's prime was super-prime.

If we wanted to come up with a super-prime category, Sisler had two seasons that fit that mold

1920: .407/.449/.632, 19 HR, 122 RBI, 137 runs, 181 OPS+, 11.2 WAR
1922: .420/.467/.594, 8 HR, 105 RBI, 134 runs, 170 OPS+, 8.7 WAR

If we look at Bagwell, he had four seasons that fit that mold. One of which being historic (and unfortunately cut short)

1994: .368/.451/.750, 39 HR, 116 RBI, 104 runs, 213 OPS+, 7.8 WAR (In 110 games :eek:)
1996: .315/.451/.570, 31 HR, 120 RBI, 111 runs, 178 OPS+, 7.7 WAR
1997: .286/.425/.592, 43 HR, 135 RBI, 109 runs, 168 OPS+, 8.3 WAR
1999: .304/.454/.591, 42 HR, 126 RBI, 143 runs, 162 OPS+, 8.2 WAR

Then you have all the years after age 30 that Bagwell dominates Sisler.


Frank Thomas super-prime is just plain scary. Ray Flowers did some analysis on first four seasons amongst major league players. Only two people resulted in a higher offensive output than The Big Hurt. They were Babe Ruth (once converted from pitcher) and Ted Williams. Keep in mind his WAR is negatively effected by his poor defense (this is why I keep him below Bagwell). If Thomas turned in even average defense at first, he would have posted 10 WAR seasons, which is insane in the modern era.

1991: .318/.453/.553, 32 HR, 109 RBI, 104 runs, 180 OPS+, 7.8 WAR
1992: .323/.439/.536, 24 HR, 115 RBI, 108 runs, 174 OPS+, 7.7 WAR
1993: .317/.426/.607, 41 HR, 128 RBI, 106 runs, 177 OPS+, 6.7 WAR
1994: .353/.487/.729, 38 HR, 101 RBI, 106 runs, 211 OPS+, 7.3 WAR
1997: .347/.456/.611, 35 HR, 125 RBI, 110 runs, 181 OPS+, 7.3 WAR

Again, that 1994 season was only in 113 games. That season had so many historic seasons cut short and it's a damn shame.

Sisler had a very nice prime and two extremely special seasons, but by no means unique as shown by Bagwell and Thomas's similarly great seasons. Their longevity makes them significantly better overall. If Sisler was known to be one of the best fielding 1B's of his time, it might bump him up to the 9-11 range, but the consensus is that he was league average in the field. That makes his career comps Dick Allen, Will Clark, and Rod Carew (if you choose to view him as a 1B and not 2B).

Vol 02-13-2011 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 871102)

Jimmy Foxx once drove a baseball so hard and high that it almost went out of Yankee Stadium's left field stands. In 1937 Foxx connected on
one of Lefty Gomez's pitches and rocketed it up so deep into the 3rd deck in Yankee Stadium, that the ball nearly sailed thru the clearance
between the seats and the upper deck ceiling. It was projected that this tremendous HR would have traveled 600 feet, if it had cleared the
Stadium.

Have never heard about that HR.
What a shot that was!

Mark 02-13-2011 03:13 PM

For the last four years of the deadball era, Sisler was an outstanding hitter. He was among the league leaders in on base %, slugging &, batting average each season. Then, when the live or rabbit ball was introduced, he jumped into another gear and surpassed even Cobb in hitting for 3 years. Unfortunately for Bagwell, he "bulked up" and became especially productive during the heart of the steroid era, and there are some who hold that against him. I happen to think that he was a great hitter in his own right and that he belongs in the Hall of Fame. But I am also extremely impressed by Sisler's work, especially when we factor in the difficulty of hitting prior to 1920.

Touch'EmAll 02-13-2011 05:44 PM

defensively
 
At one time or another, Foxx played 8 different positions. The only position he did not play was 2nd Base. Foxx even pitched - and was effective.

How many other players in the entire history of baseball played 8 positions?

Jim VB 02-13-2011 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 871156)
How many other players in the entire history of baseball played 8 positions?


These guys all played 9 positions... in a single game:


Cesar Tovar of the Twins, Bert Campenaris of the Athletics, Jose Oquendo of the St. Louis Cardinals, Scott Shelden of the Rangers, and Shane Halter of the Tigers.


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