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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p><br />

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Posted By: <b>Adam Smith</b><p>From 3 to 4.5? You got screwed.

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Posted By: <b>Brian E.</b><p>I certainly lost a little faith in GAI on this one. I wonder what the explanation is...consistency problem, favoritism etc...<br /><br />Brian E.

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>And i always counted myself as a big supporter of theirs do to the service i have recieved. Now i will wait to speak to someone there and see how it shakes out.<br /><br />But this does look pretty bad.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>it's a 4.5...if you're willing to overlook the mark. how much did it go for in the gai3 holder?

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>I actually enjoy doing buisness with the seller and do not fault him at all. All of my dealings with Charlie have been great and i will continue to buy from him. So i am not comfortable with naming a price. But at the time ( actually it was a trade) i was happy. <br /><br />This is on GAI as far as i'm concerned

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Posted By: <b>Brian E.</b><p>Is the mark ink? Even though there is no doubt it is marked, the mark is extremely minor if the the scans are an accurate representation. I wonder if the grader either didn't notice it OR thought it was subtle and didn't warrant a lower grade as a result.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I really wish you had emailed me first if you were disappointed, instead of choosing this forum. <br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Adam Smith</b><p>Why did the dealer take the scan down?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Interesting question.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>cb

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>cb

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Well yes Charlie i was implying something or I would not have responded.<br /><br />I certaintly was not implying anything that should wind your shorts up in a knot.<br />You seem to have answered the question.<br /><br />Do you not find it interesting that a card goes from a PSA 4 mk to a GAI 3 to a GAI 4.5?<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />edited to add: on second thought I should say: I was not implying anything I was being direct as I found it to be an interesting question which you have answered.<br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>cb

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Charlie<br /><br />I have been in the hobby for 35 years. I have been a dealer with a storefront and just a plain old hobbyist. Nothing surprises me. I have seen it all. I certaintly understand a card getting a different grade.............but from a 3 to a 4.5 is a tad more then just being subjective IMO.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>cb

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>"I agree that one must by the card and not the holder". OK, who are you, & what have you done with Charlie? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>I am not sure how to respond to the last question?<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Charlie<br /><br />And you can guarantee that stain and those fibres will remain in the current form?<br /><br />What happens if the laying down fibres wake up and the stain re appears?<br /><br /><br />I do not want to get into an ethical debate with you here.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Charlie <br /><br />by your editing out your posts and the non reply to my question can i assume you are implying something?<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Email me privately and I will answer any question you want. <br /><br />cbarokas42@yahoo.com<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>""I have nothing to hide. Scott or someone before Scott attempted to remove the stain from the back of the card, in doing so they also stired up many of the fibers on the back. I simply removed more of the stain and layed the fibers back down."<br /><br /><br />I find it disturbing that this kind of stuff goes on.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>I just got back to this thread and did not see all of the posts before they were edited. But i do want to say for what it's worth that i have dealt with Charlie many time's for some decent amounts of cash and he has alway's been a perfect seller. I do not fault him for this in any way. As far as i'm concered GAI is the one who has some explaining to do.<br />I probably should have emailed the seller directly as well as GAI to get some answers first.It really just caught me by suprise and i posted before talking to the others.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>This really doesnt surprise me about GAI at all. I sold an SGC 30 E98 Honus Wagner several months ago. I dont recall who the buyer was any longer. What I do know is that the same exact card now sits in Wayne Varner's inventory for sale as a GAI 3. See for yourself (and yes, all those white spots are paperloss). <br /><br />My card:<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/1106545632.jpg"><br /><br />My old card now with Shoebox Cards:<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/lg230378531.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Link: <a href="http://www.wvshoeboxcards.com/myproducts.cfm?CFID=165988&CFTOKEN=29365851&produc tID=4742&display=detail&categoryID=473&name=1910%2 0E%2098%20%27Set%20of%2030%27&filterFor" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.wvshoeboxcards.com/myproducts.cfm?CFID=165988&CFTOKEN=29365851&produc tID=4742&display=detail&categoryID=473&name=1910%2 0E%2098%20%27Set%20of%2030%27&filterFor</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.wvshoeboxcards.com/myproducts.cfm?CFID=165988&CFTOKEN=29365851&produc tID=4742&display=detail&categoryID=473&name=1910%2 0E%2098%20%27Set%20of%2030%27&filterFor</a</a>>=<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Take out the guess work for me. Are you asserting that GAI is being extra-nice to their top submitters, or that a certain grader is getting paid off, or both?

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>My assumption is that GAI is playing favorites with their big submitters.

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Isn't a proper business model that you make sure your best customers get the best service in order to maintain their business? That's how I run my business.

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Except that card grading is ENTIRELY dependent on the company's reputation. At the heart of their business, reputation is all they have. I would think that a better long term a business model would be to create an unassailable aura of objectivity. Otherwise this whole era of grading is going to come to a quick end and be remembered with embarassment as an unfortunate joke. I'm ambivalent about grading myself, but I hope the service gets better, not worse, because it does have its benefits.<br /><br />--Chad<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MANONTHEROCK</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I don't think two examples are enough anadecdotal evidence to draw that conclusion with GAI. I think Mike Baker is the most consistent and accurate grader in the business. I have gotten many more favorable grades from PSA than I have ever gotten from GAI. I believe most of my submissions with all three of the major grading companys include some favorable grades, unfavorable grades and the majority being accurate grades. And yes, I have gotten some favorable grades from SGC as well!! Grading is subjective and a human beings opinion, not an exact science.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I really hope Jack is kidding. Yes, treat your best customers well, but not by giving them preferential grading. IBM doesnt give their best customers better computers than you and I can get, just better pricing, service, etc. <br /><br />I have no problem if a grading company wants to offer special pricing to large submitters - but the whole service becomes questionable if they are offering better grades.

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Posted By: <b>Robert</b><p>GAI is not the only one that does it I see PSA cards fro sale by 707 sportscards and Joe's to big dealers and almost every card I see they post are at least 1 grade higher then they should. It is not fair and grading companies should be completely neutral but the are not. I am sure SGC is just as guilty with their big dealers. That is why you should buy the card and not the holder as stated 1000's of times in this forum.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Charlie, <br /><br />My opinion is not based on two examples. Ive actually been told of quite a few instances of this with shoebox submissions. Whether intentional or not, large submitters do seem to get better grades. I dont want to turn this into another grading company vs. grading company thread, but as far as consistency is concerned, I would respectfully disagree. There is just simply no way that wagner should be a 3 with all those areas of paperloss. <br /><br />(Edited to change "4" to "3" in the last sentence.)

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Robert,<br /><br />How is your price guide going? <br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I think you mean "3" not "4" on the Wagner card. Anyway, I think Baker and SGC differ on paper loss, SGC thinks any and all paper loss equals a "2". On the other Hand, and I do not wan to speak for Baker but its my opinion that if the paper loss does not affect the overall eye appeal of the card, he will give the card a "3".<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Robert</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />It's going well, the core is almost complete and the rest is fairly simple it is just time consuming preparing some 5,000 images to load on the site. And still always trying to get more which is not an easy task.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I wasn't kidding about "best customers" getting "best service." Whether "best service" means preferential grading, getting a "rounding-up" instead of a "rounding-down" on a subjective grading decision, getting the more experienced graders to do their submissions, or none of the above, is up to their customers to decide. Just my 2cents.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>PSA gives favorable grades to their big dealers. Happens all of the time. Look at 4sharpcorners recent prewar auctions for just a small sample.<br /><br />As for cards getting bumped a grade, everyone does it. If a card looks strong in an SGC holder, cross it to PSA or GAI for a bump. If a card looks strong in a GAI holder, cross it to PSA or SGC. Crack and submit, roll the dice. People submit cards back to PSA, SGC and GAI for a second review if the initial grade does not look right. All of the graders offer the service to review THEIR OWN slabs. <br /><br />Everyone can produce dozens of examples of cards crossing at least 1 grade from any grader to any other grader. That's a fact. Why get caught up with a handful of GAI examples.

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Posted By: <b>Dean H</b><p>Here is one that was on Joe's website and now is on ebay. I believe these to be the same card. I think this happens with all grading companies.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139507893.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>You are absolutely right Dean. The crack-out game is played with all grading companies. Many dealers and many collectors spend a lot of time cracking and resubmitting in order to get bumps in grades.<br /><br />This reminds me of an article about Heritage auctions and the coin industry in Forbes magazine a few years ago. In that article it is estimated that that Heritage (which is by far the largest coin dealer/auctionhouse) cracked and resubmitted 15% of the coins that it handles. Most of the time they get higher grades.<br /><br />Is it any surprise that people are doing the same with baseball cards?

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Here is a link to the Forbes article about Heritage and the coin business. See how many parallels you can draw with our own hobby.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I recall multiple threads on the subject of quality of grading from the main services with comments that GAI overgrades. I am not surprised to see SGC 2 cards like that Wagner becoming GAI 3 cards. My observation is that GAI-graded cards rarely cross equally to SGC and that SGC cards always cross over to GAI with better grades if cracked out and sent in. IMHO dealers are aware of this and purposely look for undergraded SGC and PSA cards to crack out and send to GAI. For that reason, I usually assume I am getting at least 1/2 grade lower than real in a GAI holder and pay accordingly.

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Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>At the end of the day, every card will have the highest possible grade regardless of holder.<br /><br />But collectors are really starting to put a lot of thought into what cards they buy...you can see big premiums being paid for undergraded cards as well as low prices realized for technical high grades.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>the time is right for a slab & authenticate only "pre war" service.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>We already play the "crack-out" game in cards, have since slabbing started. Nothing new there. I will say that my few auction experiences with Heritage have been good.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>"At the end of the day, every card will have the highest possible grade regardless of holder."<br /><br /><br /><br />I have no problem with that, I have a problem though when a sellers doctor the cards up and then gets it into a higher graded slab. <br /><br /><br />Steve<br />

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>My 2 cents for what there worth. I am working on the t206's right now and almost without exception the psa's i buy cross lower to gai holders. Does this happen with other sets ? i don't think so. But for whatever reason psa is pretty lax on the t206's vs gai. I use gai just for this reason as well as there customer service. Which has alway's been great. The same cannot be said for psa. I also truly do believe that psa hands out better grade's to there large submiters. I/We see it all the time on ebay, and i felt that maybe Gai was not falling into that area.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I agree with Josh on the issue of not giving better grades to bigger customers under the guise of superior service.<br /><br />These grading companies are just like JD Power and Consumer Reports in that they have only one thing to sell - their opinion. Yes, they try to judge with quantifiable factors, but nevertheless in the end the result is a designation, opinion, score, etc. based on evaluation by a human being.<br /><br />These opinions remain salable ONLY to the extent that they are objective. That's why Consumer Reports will not accept advertising - it is too important to assure that there is no possible perception that their reviews and opinions are not objective.<br /><br />As soon as there is perception that anything at all besides the actual product is contributing to a grade, report, review, score, opinion, etc, then the company has just lost the only thing they have to sell.<br /><br />I'm surprised that any of the grading companies would do anything to allow even a hint of partiality. I certainly don't think they would do it as part of an open policy of favorable "service" to specific submittors.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>jeremy wagoner</b><p>sometimes i think that, while it's annonymous, when a grader sees a large quantity of high dollar cards come across his desk, he realizes this is not a normal grading session. and maybe, just maybe, he knows to act accordingly.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>I do believe that some of the variances in the grading, even from the individual graders in each company, can be attributed to "grading the card with certain provisions due to the issue."<br /><br />One glaring example is a Cracker Jack card with caramel staining. I am sure that this issue is typically graded with more relaxed standards due to staining. I have seen several EX 5's and VG-EX 4's from all of the companies that are covered with stains. Are the relaxed standards due to staining on certain issues consistent from company to company? and even between graders in the same company? Probably not.<br /><br />