Help with PSA/DNA LOA Bat terminology
 

Hi Guys:

I am not a bat collector, but rather a player collector who has received a bat with a PSA/DNA LOA.

I am not revealing the players name, team or model number in the below

The LOA says:

"the players name" Professional Model Bat.

The second line under the photo of the bat says:

The model number, length and weight specifications have been confirmed by the Manufacturer's ordering records as being ordered by the PLAYER ( my CAPS ) during the referenced labeling period.

However later under comments it seems to contradict the above when it says:

A review of "the players name" factory ordering records document the __ model as being ordered by "the player" throughout his career. However a 33 inch model can not be found. (my underline) Records indicate he ordered bats as short as 32 1/2 inches in the length. The __ model does appear on the "teams" team record during the referenced labeling period. It is common knowledge that the team, as well as the player, ordered bats for game use. It is our opinion the __ model "players name" bat is one of the team ordered bats.

It goes on to say "it is our opinion the bat is authentic as described"


So, my questions are

1 Do they contradict themselves where in an earlier paragraph they say the PLAYER ordered this bat in the model number and length but then go on to say a 33 inch bat can not be found in the factory ordering records?

2. Is the above discrepancy a big deal I should worry about?

3. Is the main description above the photo of the bat where is says Professional Model Bat the same on all bats, or is there a designation that says the players name and a GAME USED Model bat?

4. With the description above is this considered a game used bat? Nowhere on the LOA does it say GAME USED

I don't want to buy a bat that is supposed to be GAME USED, if it is not. I just don't know the different terminologies for bats and don't want to get caught up in confusing language.

Thanks in advance for any answers, info, guidance to the above will be greatly appreciated,

Fred

Fred,

Based on your post, it sounds like its a team ordered/index bat. Which is a bat ordered by the Team for other players to use (pitchers, minor leaguers, etc). Normally it would be a star player (Mantle) and a model number they normally ordered.

So yes the PSA description says that player X had ordered bats has short as 32.5.. But during the time when your bat is from, they never had orders of 33 inch bats. But the team records show them ordering bats in that range.

So based on that, the chances of the bat being used by the player who's on the barrel is very slim to probably none.

Excellent explanation from Brock... completely agree with his assessment.

index bat
 

I agree with Brock. It's possible that the player with no name used the bat, but it seems that there's nothing that we know that makes it probable. It's still a pro model bat of player X, and that's not a bad thing---but it's not something that would earn a 9 or a 10 from PSA/DNA. You couldn't honestly say "this is a bat that X used." As for your first and third questions, I believe that this is their standard language. I think that language will appear on their letters/ photos even if they go on to say that the bat has unique player characteristics or that there is a photo match showing that the bat was used in a pro game.

That is exactly how I would interpret it.

Also, since I am thinking about it, my guess on your mystery man is Tony Gwynn.:D

(You don't have to give up the name of course. I just thought it would be fun to play) :rolleyes:

Guys:

Thanks for your replies.

Still more questions/comments/answers.

Just to be clear, is there a different LOA for Game Used bats or do all bats have the "Professional Model Bat" designation above the photo of the bat?

No, JoeDfan it is not Tony Gwynn, but rather another left handed hitting HOFer

Is there a standard difference in value between a bat like this and a G.U. bat? Say 25% less etc.?

HOF bat collectors would not want a bat like this in their collections?

Thanks again,

Fred

As I understand it, their photo spreads of gamers usually have the Pro Model Bat language at the top of the page. Consider:

http://https://www.psacard.com/ProBatFacts/#29hall-of-fame-players

As for the phrase "game used," it may not appear in the letter, but if the bat is graded, it gets a designation such as PSA/DNA GU 10 or PSA/DNA GU 6. The higher the number, the more confident they are that it is game used. This Jeter bat sounds like it was almost surely used by him in a game. They say that it has his characteristics and that he used it during the period when the bat was issued, but they don't use the phrase "game used bat" other than the GU 10.

http://https://www.iconicauctions.com/derek_jeter_signed___game_used_2001_03_ny_yankees_-lot81155.aspx

Lou Brock?

The ones I have say what yours says IF the bat is just a pro stock/team index bat. Sometimes they say "use by the named player cannot be determined" or something like that.

The ones that are game used say the "Professional Model Bat"; but very specifically say in the narrative something like "our opinion that the bat was game used by [Your Player] during the referenced labeling period".

There is a HUGE difference in price on a bat that says "was game used by" and "professional model". Index bats are typically a fraction of the price.

I actually LOVE team index bats, and if it is not a player I have already, would be very interested.

And, darn it. I thought I had it figured out. :)

Sean

Nope, Not Lou Brock

So when the LOA says:

"it is our opinion the bat is authentic as described" which description are they talking about?

The first:

The model number, length and weight specifications have been confirmed by the Manufacturer's ordering records as being ordered by the PLAYER ( my CAPS ) during the referenced labeling period.

or the second:

A review of "the players name" factory ordering records document the __ model as being ordered by "the player" throughout his career. However a 33 inch model can not be found. (my underline) Records indicate he ordered bats as short as 32 1/2 inches in the length. The __ model does appear on the "teams" team record during the referenced labeling period. It is common knowledge that the team, as well as the player, ordered bats for game use. It is our opinion the __ model "players name" bat is one of the team ordered bats.

It is a bit misleading if as Mark says the first is "standard language". Seems they should not include that if they have another conflicting description later on the LOA.

Lou Brock was my second guess! :D

Yes, I think the language is sometimes a bit misleading. I have some PSA certs that start out with the same language, but later on, it clearly states that the bat is a team index bat.

Another confounding factor is that you have to pay extra for a GU grade, which I don't. So I have bats that don't have the grade assigned, but still say "was game used by [Player].

I think basically PSA uses little templates, because I have seen a few where they forgot to remove the previous player's name in the narrative.

The key I think is that yours specifically says "it is our opinion the model players bat is one of the team ordered bats". That pretty much says it all.
It means the team ordered the bat, but they ordered the player model for other players, spring training, or even (I think) minor league clubs. It is conceivable that the named player used the bat, but without ironclad provenance or photo evidence, I do not think that claim can be made.
Believe it or not, I have a store model bat used by Johnny Pesky, so you really never know. I saw two bats in Cooperstown that Mantle used to hit milestone shots, and neither of them are even his model!

bat
 

There is a huge difference in price between a pro-stock/index bat as opposed to a "game used" bat.

....and that’s why they get the big bucks! :rolleyes:

SMH.

If the Player wanted to use that size he would've ordered a few at least, if it was his popular model. Player probably never handled it. Still considered Pro Model because of other player possible use. Agree team index bats are a fraction of the value

It does say "[In PSA's opinion, the bat] was game used by Jeter during the referenced labeling period"; way down in the concluding paragraph.
That is the key difference I look for in PSA certs (in my opinion).

I am just guessing, but I think the bat in question is from the 1950’s, not a more modern one. With that in mind, would the opinions all be the same?

I think it's difficult to render any sort of opinion on this without having all information available.

Gentlemen:

Thanks to all for the info and education on the bat grading.

Just another reason I am glad I do not collect graded cards etc.

If the LOA can talk out of both sides of it mouth at the same time who needs them?

Despite the wording on any LOA, I collect lots of game used bats; and I have personally found PSA (and Mears) to be extremely helpful.
I mostly collect small time stuff; I am not buying PSA 10 Ruth lumber, so I could not comment on the big sandbox items.

But I personally have no problem sending in a bat. I do not sell many of my bats, but if I ever wanted to, I think having the LOA gets the deal done much faster, and at a higher price. Probably because for some reason, the general public seems to trust John Taube's opinion more than mine. :D

I used to trust MEARS, a couple years ago I contacted them about items in their auctions that were absolutely fake or no way could be attributed to the player, I gave a list of reasons but the items were sold anyway and they never even responded. I stopped buying from them altogether.

As Mears likes to say, the LOA's are really Letters of Opinion. If you collect bats from a given era and read a lot of letters, you can learn a lot from reading thosee letters. Reading them helped me figure out what counts as good evidence that an item was game used or that it could have been used by a given player.

At the same time, I now read the letters closely. Auctions can pick things from the letters that lead me to infer things about the bat that the letters don't exactly say. The letters themselves can incline me to leap to conclusions that aren't entirely warranted, but if they describe the bat thoroughly and acccurately, then the letters are still very useful to the educated collector.

BTW: In my experience, John Taube has been objective. Others will have had more experience with him. I used to buy a lot of bats from Mears, and if there was a mixup they treated me very well. Their auction mislabeled a bat now and then, but I still liked the bats that I got. Lately, however, they haven't been auctioning or evaluating much that I want.

I got one of my bats authenticated ( I won't go into to much detail of who it is etc.) and Taube authenticated it as "Pro Stock". Yet at the end of my LOA he says that there was an order placed by the player for the exact measurements my bat was which was for 12 bats in June of that year. There's at least 2 other bats that sold at major AH that are the exact same specs and time period as my bat and they were considered "Professional Model" bats. Those bats that sold didn't have any kind of provenance with them and neither does mine. There's a big difference in price between Pro Stocks and Professional Models as you all know. I'm still scratching my head whenever I look at the bat and don't fully agree with the LOA of my bat.

Oh, that sucks. Did you ask why it was different? Usually, when one of my bats turns out to be different than what I thought, there is some tiny thing that they know or see that I didn't pick up on.

No I didn't. One of the bats I saw while looking through one of my old auction catalogs.

My 2 cents. I am not a game used expert so when I buy a bat I look for one graded a 9 or 10 by PSA. And I have always been happy with the bats. Just wish I had more room to display them.

Exactly my problem! :)