"The Unauthenticatables"
 

My endless pursuit of autographed T206 cards often forces me to buy cards that have not been authenticated. Frequently, a signature is convincing, even though I am unable to find any examples of the signature against which to compare it. And the seller isn't making forgeries, he's just selling a card that has definitely been signed by someone -- perhaps even the player himself. The problem is, not only can't I find an exemplar -- neither can PSA/DNA or JSA. In fact, the sad truth is, some signatures are so obscure that even if they were genuine, the experts can't confirm it or deny it. They can only tell you the factors that suggest it could be real, and the reasons they think it might be fake.

The three examples below fall into this category. I absolutely love the Frank Smith, which has been artfully signed in white by someone with a smooth hand. James Spence took a picture for his files, but had nothing against which to compare it. Maybe one day, an identifying exemplar of Smith's will turn up and uncover whether this is the genuine article or not.

The McElveen is an ugly card with an interesting signature. It doesn't have the traditional hallmarks of a fake, as it is small and unassuming. However, given that McElveen died in 1951, this gave McElveen precious few years to sign T206 cards in ballpoint - as this one was - since ballpoint pens only came into vogue shortly after World War II. PSA/DNA found the signature to have questionable authenticity, and JSA couldn't authenticate it either. The reason? Again, nothing against which to compare it.

Finally, good old Gus Dorner. This one is pretty clearly just an identifying mark of a collector, who wanted for some reason to put the player's full name on the back of his card in pencil. However, if it were real, we wouldn't be able to authenticate it -- this is a Minor League card of a player who played sporadically in the Majors only through 1909. Again, no exemplars available.

So what do you do when you come across signed cards that can't be authenticated by anyone? If a player signed few autographs during his lifetime, that makes them rare -- and valuable, but only if the signature can be confirmed as real. Ironically, the rarer the signature, the less valuable it can become. If there's only one -- and there were no witnesses -- then how do you know it is real at all?

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-XZg_GjlX1-RR_8jzmtC_jiJm_Z5QsNdec5_I7WHZRE?feat=embedwebsite "><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/TZaJg6bcUyI/AAAAAAAAI8c/107dzMhibME/s800/Unauthenticatables.jpg" height="468" width="762" /></a>

Checks? But I guess nobody kept those. Maybe important documents like a Will or mortgage.

BTW, I would guess the Smith is not a signature but someones attempt to put a name on the card since it was miscut at the bottom.

Very nice writeup.

Have you tried contacting the County Clerk where they died to see if there is a Will on file? They are public record and you should be able to get a copy.

Good luck with your quest.

(Can I have my Paddy back? :D )

If that Smith auto is real he had one really nice sig. Neat cards Paul.

Here is my contribution a t205 lewis richie with an autograph on back. No idea if its his. Im leaning towards no because its such a generic autograph but that doesnt mean anything either.

Attachment 35892

Sean, well we can rule it out as labeling by the collector, since the name is already on the back twice. That right there would actually lead me to believe that it may be real. But then again collector's have always done strange things. I've never quite understood autographs on the back of a card either. I picked up a '64 Ernie Banks, that "someone wrote on the back of"(according to the seller) a while back for under $5. I was pleasantly surprised when that writing turned out to be a legit Ernie signature.

Agreed, that Smith looks really nice in white.

Hi David!

That is a good point. Also if he was signing it in pencil it would make sense for him to sign it on back as it would show up more. It s a shame there arent more autograph examples of these more obscure players

F. Smith auto
 

Here's an example of a Frank Smith autograph from a book I have. To me, it doesn't look like the same person who signed your T206. Of course, the sources for the book could be wrong. I agree there are few examples known of these players.

A great resource for finding signatures that are all-but-guaranteed to be authentic is on WWI draft registration cards. Everyone in the US including foreign citizens had to fill one out in 1917-18 if you were born between Sept 11, 1872 to Sept 12, 1900. You can access them at most libraries and on sites like ancestry.com

At first glance, the two Smith examples, the card and the book, look very similar.

Actually, the Smith exemplar used in that book is more likely an early version of the Frank Smith who pitched for the Reds in the 1950's. His signature very quickly became a nearly-illegible scrawl.

Frank "Piano Mover" Smith's signature bears no resemblence to either depicted in this thread. Unfortunately, the book in question ended up using a few exemplars which did not match up to actual examples, to which Smith apparently fell victim. Bob Groom was another, as confirmed by both his granddaughter and the few known examples in the hobby.

Here is Lewis Richies draft card. The lewis isnt bad but the richie is a little different. The most suspicious letter being the r in richie. However, I like the Lewis so this might have a chance. Thanks for the advise regarding ancestory! :)


Attachment 35942

Here is frank smith. Not identical however its interesting that he signed it f. elmer which is consistent with him signing it f.e. Te Pryor Mcelveen sig is to new to match with ww1 as they are not even close.

Attachment 35943

I contacted a family member regarding Gus Dorner as his military record does not show up on ancestory. ill keep ya posted :)

Put these together, hope you don't mind.......

[IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s-compared.jpg[/IMG]

Wow, if you guys would have been on the Warren Commission, the "Grassy Knoll" and "Magic Bullet" wouldn't be household words. Very impressive research.

I def. see resemblances in the SABR smith and the draft card smith that I don't see on the t206.

Regarding ".... Smith," whoever signed it was having trouble with the ink on the "S," first hump of the "m," and the "h."

What keeps catching my eye in "...Smith" on the card and the found example is:

• The stop/go where the "m" ends and the "i" begins.
• The second hump of the "m."
• The "S," including the height of it.

The book and the found example:

• The h in Smith travels above the line consistently
• The crossed t has a similar angle, above the t and through the h.
• The entire name travels on the line consistently
• The F in Frank were partially done, lacking pressure in the loop, fading off.

............

• The S in the book example is different from the others, but the S on the card and found ex. are similar.
• The F in the found ex. is different, but the F on the card and book are similar
• The end of the h on the card is different, but he didn't have a line to write on.

In the few instances where one seems different, the other two are similar.

Based on the examples shown, I'd say there's a good chance the sig on the card may be legit. Nothing for sure though. It appears that more time was put into the signature on the card, not in a forgery sort of way, but more of a difficulty with the writing utensil sort of way, as you pointed out. Also, maybe a bit more care in making the signature nice for somebody that was kind enough to ask for it. I know when I had my band, whenever I signed something for someone, I made it a little more nice than my typical chicken scratch on a credit card receipt or random paperwork.. This is all just speculation though.

Sean,

Can you post the Smith WWI card in its entirety? I spent over six months collecting the WWI cards of every major leaguer I could unearth and was unable to locate Smith's. I'm not convinced that yours is the right Smith, as the signature doesn't quite match up to others I have on file. Does the vital info match up to known info for Smith? Also, I notice that the Frank Smith you found had listed a mother in Connecticut as next of kin; Smith the ballplayer was a lifelong resident of Pittsburgh.

Here are two verifiable examples of Frank Smith. The first is from his WWII draft card, circa 1942-43. The next is a form he filled out for baseball historian Karl Wingler in 1945. This contains the only extra writing I've seen on Smith. (Please note that the WWII card was filled out by a government worker and only signed by Smith).

im having a hard time doing it as it will only let me take a close up. However I noticed the one I got lists the birthdate as October 18, 1879 so I think you may be right jodi. My frank smith says hes married to a imogene. It lists him as manager but it looks like its for a furniture comp. weird though that they dont have a draft card of the real frank elmer smith, this one is really close is there any chance it could still be him?

From what I can see of your scan, Imogene is actually listed as that Frank Elmer Smith's mother. The Wingler form in my previous post shows Smith the ballplayer being married to Rena. Adding to that, both of the documents in my files list October 28 as his date of birth.

Here it is....
 

Here's a Frank with his B'Day, but can't read the form very well...

[IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...nksmithWW1.jpg[/IMG]

Good job! I couldn't find it for some reason.

your right and there is no mention of him being married in 1918.

nice work greg, did you find that on ancestry? When i did it I could only find the one I found

Actally, if you look right above Smith's signature, Rena has been listed next of kin, proving we have our man.

I just used first name, last name, and date of birth in the military search section. Looks like baseball reference may be off a year on Mcelveen's B'Day:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ormcelveen.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rmcelveen2.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...s-mcelveen.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ncompared2.jpg

_________________________________________________

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...raightened.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...rmcelveen4.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...orcompared.jpg

Gus' card didn't load for some reason:
Name: Augustus Dorner
County: Franklin
State: Pennsylvania
Birth Date: 18 Aug 1876
Race: White
FHL Roll Number: 1892183

In my WWI/WWII draft card projects, I likely found over 1000 pieces of biographical information that conflict with info already gathered by earlier researchers. Much of this has to do with DOB, places of birth, height, etc. Most of the time, it's impossible to ascertain which of the facts are to be believed. It's a safe bet that many "baseball ages" need to be corrected if the draft cards are to be believed, however.

McElveen
 

I have my doubts about the Frank Smith auto on the T206 being legit. Not enough similarities to the other samples. The McElveen looks pretty good though!

Yeah Ron, Smith is no good, like JBirkholm said from the start. McElveen does look good though, would help to have more pixels in the T206 scan to be more sure. McElveen signed the registration card twice, top and bottom.

Found this Dorner in a google search, index card:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m.../GusDorner.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...les-Dorner.jpg

Very interesting thread. I am pulling for the Frank Smith auto to be authentic, as it is beautiful.

Did not know Pryor McElveen was a Tennessean as well.

uh hem, what about my lewis richie?

Looks very close. Can you 'save as' (Ritchie's draft card) on at the ancestry site and upload it? I no longer have access to the site. The screen shot is small.

[IMG]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...ecompared2.jpg[/IMG]

Hi greg
Ill see if I can tomorrow night and email you. Thanks :)

Fascinating Thread...
 

I have a built in affection for Pryor McElveen...his was the first T card I ever owned and I recently replaced that long lost card with the one below...

Now this may be the dumb question/observation, but is that not his "signature" on the card? Would assume that the T205 set could serve as a good marker for what obscure players sigs looked like...at least for the N.L. teams that incorporated sigs in the card design...

Definitely not a dumb question, and you are right that the T205 makers clearly did rely on the players' actual signatures in making their designs, albeit by adding a little flare. So, I think it does help, but is probably not definitive.

Here's four examples, where the players helped us out by signing right above their names:

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hTN8Zoi41QAWyWgCCvg5qi2SgJ5llERsPVr9T56MCxw?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/TTo6Op5bWQI/AAAAAAAAI28/BGl7fVktUcQ/s800/WheatT205.jpg" height="800" width="488" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/G9JYSVX3VfuLvjfQYJIAlS2SgJ5llERsPVr9T56MCxw?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/TTo6OW2GtEI/AAAAAAAAI24/RmEtOLHnoIQ/s800/MarquardT205.jpg" height="800" width="499" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/BARkgCLCaX4BucTK4OT8-i2SgJ5llERsPVr9T56MCxw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/S7FF8pW5BmI/AAAAAAAAHyE/Pp5rE7fUNiE/s800/SnodgrassT205AutoSGC30.jpg" height="800" width="502" /></a>

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Rzt4XEzrLaX9jjTi6Bjr8i2SgJ5llERsPVr9T56MCxw?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/S7FF8fsXb4I/AAAAAAAAHyA/aCzNOupZu-4/s800/DoyleT205SGC40.jpg" height="800" width="499" /></a>

Wheat
 

Wheat's card was where I got the idea...my thought is that the n.l. Guys probably signed something (contract, scrap paper, whatever) that was used in the creation of their card...if it was a formal document, it might be the more formal version of their signature as opposed to what was given out for autograph requests...in fact the use of initials for guys with longer names makes me think they knew the exemplar would appear on the small t card....all speculation on my part but fun nonetheless.