Net54baseball.com Forums

Net54baseball.com Forums (http://www.net54baseball.com/index.php)
-   Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   "RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262449)

bounce 11-22-2018 10:21 AM

"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?
 
ML auction opened this week, there is some great stuff in there. Got my catalog in the mail yesterday. Was excited to see how the T206 Wagner did. Not a card I can afford, but always like watching the action on these.

The catalog had the regular write-up for a card of this caliber, which in my opinion has gotten so overdone. These cards don't need that level of description and hype, but that's a discussion for another day. What I didn't realize was just how extensive the "restoration" was on this card. The catalog doesn't show the back, but you can see it on the website. The back makes it much easier to see signs of just how much "grafting" of the borders was done. The description almost hypes the $14,000 spent fixing this thing up.

Sure - it looks nice I guess, but as a collector, this thing isn't REALLY a T206 any more.

I've been saying for years now that high end cards act much more like artwork when it comes to pricing, so maybe in some way this kind of thing was to be expected. However, at some level for me, this card has been so altered at this point, it's not really an "original" anymore. Using the artwork analogy, this seems more like a lithograph or a limited edition print than it does an original.

Or maybe think real estate - we can now just invest in some "remodeling" costs to make cards look better? I know there's other things like bleaching, etc. that have been done, not a fan of that either really but this was pretty extensive.

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

biggsdaddycool 11-22-2018 10:25 AM

I agree 100%. What happened to the day when this sort of thing was frowned upon?? Maybe I’m too much of a purist, but even soaking for me is borderline.

The amount of money in the hobby these days ensures the “old days” of considering anything done to the card to improve condition being sac religious are gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LeftHandedDane 11-22-2018 10:47 AM

At least it has been fully disclosed! With the skyrocketing prices for high-end cards, there is too much at stake to believe that many (most?) PSA 8 and above pre-war cards have been altered to some degree or another without full disclosure.

I agree with the OP, cards are not like fine art or real estate that are enhanced by restoration. I prefer my cards to have a little wear and tear on them, it makes them more genuine. But I collect as a hobby, not as an investment, and I am not trying to beat the market.

I can see the interest in having an authentic sample of the hobby's most iconic card, even if it has been altered, for some collectors. It will be interesting to see how much this card brings versus recent low-quality, unaltered versions.

Throttlesteer 11-22-2018 10:55 AM

I look at it more like restored cars with new parts vs a numbers matching survivor. I dont need my cards soaked, grafted, bedazzled, or recolored. The character is lost when you give them a tummy tuck.

Jason19th 11-22-2018 10:57 AM

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

SetBuilder 11-22-2018 11:03 AM

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

Throttlesteer 11-22-2018 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1828998)
There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

SetBuilder 11-22-2018 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer (Post 1829001)
Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

Jobu 11-22-2018 11:33 AM

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Fred 11-22-2018 11:51 AM

That 1a/1b job is not a restoration, that's a huge reconstruction.

I suppose if the card is doctored and then sold it would only be right if the before/after pictures are disclosed during the auction or prior to the private sale.

How would you feel if the front was used but the back was completely changed with a period back?

I'm not against restoration/reconstruction as long as there is full disclosure. Perhaps this is a turning point in the hobby where this is going to be more widely accepted and common place.

Does anybody know how many hours were spent on the Wagner ($14K) reconstruction job?

bounce 11-22-2018 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu (Post 1829006)
1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

Jason19th - I thought about this and was wondering if someone might suggest it's a sign of the hobby maturing. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. I think it's a very complicated issue, especially if the concept of these being "commodities" is going to continue.

I do worry that while these sorts of issues have certainly brought more interest and money into the hobby, it's not necessarily improved education and knowledge. For permanent sustainability, I think it all needs to go hand in hand.

mrvster 11-22-2018 12:12 PM

I was
 
going to start a thread just like this....


I agree 100% .... with poster

Fred 11-22-2018 12:13 PM

That's a pretty cool web page with the different Wagner's shown in pre-restoration and pre-slabbed states.

Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

Throttlesteer 11-22-2018 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1829005)

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

And you've made my point.

AGuinness 11-22-2018 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1829005)
The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

The Wagner, as is any sports card, is many things to many people. I'm not sure it's helpful to portray any card as solely one thing first and all else second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason19th (Post 1828996)
I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I don't have an answer, but this makes me wonder why the sports card hobby
HAS to follow the lead of other hobbies when it comes to restoration. I'm sure there are differences, perhaps subtle or not, in how each of the other hobbies you mentioned handles restored works (not to mention differing reasons for the restorations). But there's nothing that should dictate that sports cards follows suit and plays by another hobby's book.
I think (stress: think) that it's probably a sign of the health of the hobby that there are enough people to be on various sides of the restoration debate. And I hope that there is enough respect for those who are against restoration, of which there are a large number, that all restoration work is divulged. If that can happen, I think both sides can be happy.

ejharrington 11-22-2018 01:15 PM

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

ejharrington 11-22-2018 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1829005)
What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

+1

EvilKing00 11-22-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu (Post 1829006)
1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

oldjudge 11-22-2018 01:27 PM

I think all of us would prefer an unrestored to a restored copy of a card. However, sometimes because of price or rarity this is impossible. In those cases I am fine with restored copies. The Wagner is nice looking and will sell for a fraction of what a similar appearing unrestored copy would sell for, bringing it into the availability of more collectors. This is not the only restored copy of a rare card in s current auction. LOTG has a restored Ward Four Base Hits in it's auction ending Saturday. In this case it is literally the only way for a collector to get the card. There are two known copies and the unrestored copy, which sold for between $150,000 and $200,000 in a private sale, is buried in an advanced collection and not coming out. In both cases and others, the restored copy should sell for 10-20% of the unrestored copy, depending on the appearance and the amount of restoration.

ullmandds 11-22-2018 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason19th (Post 1828996)
I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

+1

The hobby has matured in many ways the last 10 or so years...not all for the good...nut maturation has occurred!

Jobu 11-22-2018 01:52 PM

I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred (Post 1829022)
Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?


RedsFan1941 11-22-2018 02:26 PM

good luck with the four base hits

rats60 11-22-2018 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu (Post 1829044)
I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.

Re-cutter. The card had already been cut off the strip when he bought it.

barrysloate 11-22-2018 03:00 PM

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

Republicaninmass 11-22-2018 03:17 PM

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

ejharrington 11-22-2018 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1829069)
I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

It says Restored right on the top

orly57 11-22-2018 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilKing00 (Post 1829039)
Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

I agree. Am I crazy to think that the card would have actually brought in more money had it not been reconstructed? I think they threw away 14k and lost more $ in the process. For the record, I have no problem with this as long as it is disclosed, but I think collectors will pay more for a rough example.

barrysloate 11-22-2018 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington (Post 1829072)
It says Restored right on the top

Yes, I know. I would leave the RESTORED part and remove the AUTHENTIC. I really don't feel that is an authentic card in the strictest sense. Parts of it are, but not all of it. At minimum, a better description is warranted.

GaryPassamonte 11-22-2018 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason19th (Post 1828996)
I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

rats60 11-22-2018 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass (Post 1829070)
Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

They had it at the National.

insidethewrapper 11-22-2018 04:28 PM

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

oldjudge 11-22-2018 04:53 PM

What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

Lorewalker 11-22-2018 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941 (Post 1829053)
good luck with the four base hits

LOL. Yeah that was sorta the same thought I had.

leaflover 11-22-2018 07:03 PM

$14,000 for restoration? Heck you can buy a reprint for $2.00.

calvindog 11-22-2018 07:10 PM

I understand that the card is worth at least 200K based on its current price, but I wouldn't pay $100 for it otherwise. I don't mind a trimmed card if the card is impossible to get otherwise -- or prohibitively expensive -- but no way do I want a Frankencard in my collection with unoriginal parts brought into it. It's one thing to color in a border, an entirely different to bring a new border into the card.

calvindog 11-22-2018 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu (Post 1829006)
1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

I would buy the original, not the restored. No way.

Fred 11-22-2018 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaflover (Post 1829112)
$14,000 for restoration? Heck you can buy a reprint for $2.00.

A GEM MINT 10 reprint might cost you a couple more bucks...but at least it's graded and you know it's an authentic reprint.

Is there a link to the auction with the Wagner that was restored to the tune of $14K?

LincolnVT 11-22-2018 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1829113)
I understand that the card is worth at least 200K based on its current price, but I wouldn't pay $100 for it otherwise. I don't mind a trimmed card if the card is impossible to get otherwise -- or prohibitively expensive -- but no way do I want a Frankencard in my collection with unoriginal parts brought into it. It's one thing to color in a border, an entirely different to bring a new border into the card.

Agreed. If they can add borders, why not just do the corners up as well and make it a gem mint / restored.

bounce 11-22-2018 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 1829094)
What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

pics added to the first post for those who aren't able to click through the links provided by Jobu

bounce 11-22-2018 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte (Post 1829083)
I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

RedsFan1941 11-22-2018 07:49 PM

the nice thing about buying a card that has a border added is you're really getting two cards for the price of one.

oldjudge 11-22-2018 08:28 PM

If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

CobbSpikedMe 11-22-2018 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 1829132)
If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

I agree with this. In this case, I would rather have the restored version. Although I appreciate anyone else's different opinion.

That's one heck of a restoration job though.

Bestdj777 11-22-2018 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass (Post 1829070)
Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

I saw it in their case at the Chantilly show in October. I couldn’t see the back. The front looked like an attractive, mid-grade example from a distance. From close up, to me anyway, it looked like someone had hand drawn on some of the lines. The other repairs were not really detectable to my untrained/unassisted eyes, but the lines were.

calvindog 11-22-2018 08:51 PM

The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.

ClementeFanOh 11-22-2018 08:55 PM

Spot on, Anson. I am into collecting comics just about as deeply as cards, and the term "restored" is frequently used to describe books that are in some way (color, staples, "married" pages, etc) artificially "improved" to enhance appearance. As is proper, these comics do not command the price values of real books of the same issue and title. For those of you who convince yourself that "restoration" is okay because it is done with cars or books, consider that those objects can be made up of hundreds of separate pieces. Cards are just front and a back. Seems pretty cheap to "restore" something like the Wagner compared to restoring a 1940s Rolls Royce, doesn't it? Those of you who can convince yourselves it is okay won't be dissuaded. I, for one, wouldn't own a "restored" card- it is cheating ( it is just that other folks KNOW you are cheating). Sermon over.

ls7plus 11-22-2018 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason19th (Post 1828996)
I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

+1. Nothing wrong with it as long as there is full disclosure, and in fact I too believe future collectors will embrace it on that basis. Not that such a restored example of any rare and valuable card will bring the $$ an original would in the same condition, but I think it will eventually be commonplace for such a restoration to be accepted as significantly more valuable than the rag it originally was. After all, who wants to brag they have a Wagner, but when asked to show it, they are too embarassed by it's supreme beater condition to even show it?

Just my humble opinion,

Larry

ls7plus 11-22-2018 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounce (Post 1829017)
Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

...

Nope.

Larry

ls7plus 11-22-2018 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1829069)
I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

Now that I would buy!

Hi, Barry,

Larry

ls7plus 11-22-2018 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bounce (Post 1829123)
that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

I don't think there will ever be a "right" or "wrong" answer--just preferences, together with price differences between an original and restored version. IMHO, the latter will vary in proportion to the rarity, significance and popularity of the card.

Good thread,

Larry


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.