Honus Wagner Patterson NJ BB team photo 1896???
 

I am not a pre war collector so now that this auction is over I am reaching out for info on the below team photo of the Patterson NJ baseball team of 1896 that shows Wagner.

Is this item legit? Did someone get a real bargain? I am guessing by the price that it may not be original etc.
Any info would be appreciated

Thanks

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...son-68C4CEE8AE

It’s a vintage print, and, yes, the winning bidder did well.

[Note: I hadn’t realized the auction was still underway when I wrote this.]

Wow, very interesting.

Fred, it looks like the auction is still running. Bids have gone up.

Wow! A good buy, indeed. Worth many multiples of the winning bid.

If it's legit I'd like to know who is estimating that piece at $1200 - $1800 :confused: .

This post could not have waited for an hour or two for the auction to end? Seriously.

Certainly helped the seller out. :eek:

The photo should be a $10,000 plus item.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, it is hard to tell from the scan if this photo described as a "silver print" is original to 1896 as it should be albumen from this time period and it is not overly clear but who knows without more images and higher quality scans.

wish I had a higher bid limit (I was capped at $5k since I registered so late)...$7500 + juice to someone on the floor.

I love this cabinet/photo as it also includes HOF executive, Ed Barrow. He obviously had an eye for talent.

Same with the 5k limit. If the winner wants to make a buck please contact me.

Consignor definitely owes Fred a beer.

The fact the winner was on the floor and saw it in person is a good sign.

I was told the winner was not on the floor, a friend of mine was on the phone for the bidding and they told him it was not a floor bid, that it was someone who came in late, probably because of this thread.

I have no skin in the game as I did not bid but I know a few people who are quite upset about this thread and outing the auction. It takes some of the fun out of the "thrill of the chase" when someone outs an auction early.

I have no skin in the game either, but I do not favor the bidders over the consignor. Outing the auction allowed the consignor to get a fairer price for his item. That is not a bad thing. On a separate note, this auction house did a horrible job publicizing this desirable piece. I never heard about it before this post, and I’m sure many other potential bidders did not either.

Swann is a respected long-time photography auction house. I would have no reason to doubt their authentication ability on the photo.

I know who won it and they were aware of the auction for weeks.

The seller left money on it to begin with putting it in Swann in my opinion. While it's a fine and reputable auction house, putting that baseball related item in there with the other stuff that was in that auction was out of place and its easy to see why so many didn't notice it.

And good for the buyer, looks like he may have got a slight deal on it still.

With all due respect, one of the first topics ever discussed on this board when I first discovered this site in Feb 2000 (over 18 years ago) was "outing" current auctions. It was discussed and overwhelmingly decided it was in poor taste at that time, has been discussed many times here with the same conclusion since, and will always be considered proper etiquette to wait until something is over. Waiting to discuss pricing or whether something was a good deal has been the unwritten rule of this site and people have been called out for it hundred of times. The exception of course being to discuss as to whether an item is a reprint to save a member from a bad experience.

Had this been an item I had been looking for personally (which this was not) that had been outed by someone unfamiliar with the etiquette of this forum, I would be really pissed off right now. Consignors plugging their own item is a completely different story.

This forum has changed in many ways but the basic fun of it has remained. If an indifference now exists to whether current auctions can be outed and that practice is accepted, it is a step in the wrong direction for the fun of the community.

Again, not something I was bidding on, but the outing of it here before it ended should be looked at as in extremely poor taste by everyone and if not, I believe that is a problem.

I agree and check your emails :).

There have been many threads concerning/discussing outing auctions. Personally I don't like them to be outed when open or even right after they close.
It has been debated and hashed out over and over but there can be no hard rule against it. It is still open for debate but it's been debated so much I can't imagine something changing. Also, in defense of one of my all time favorite board members (hi Fred) who started this thread he did think the auction was over. I have been totally hosed before because of someone outing an open auction on ebay, in the wrong category, which I was following. So be it.
I cringe sometimes when I see them discussed when still ongoing. I can see the other side too but still......and outing your own auction in the wrong place on this forum, when found out about, will get you the boot or at least slapped around a little. :o

Yeah I feel bad for who ever would have owned this piece. That’s being said I had no idea he played for P-Town. Is this common knowledge. Was this like a semi pro league ?

I too agree the “outing” of live auctions has become all too commonplace on here...hard to prevent when such threads can be disguised as “discussion” threads.


Hard to feel bad for the consignor such a rare and unusual items you would have to have your head in the sand to not know it’s approximate value ??

Swann is a good auction house with a fine photography department and I have both bid and consigned with them. They are known for their photography but they do not specialize in sports memorabilia. It was the consignor's decision to give it to them. It's certainly possible that he wasn't a baseball collector and simply had this photo for a reason we can't explain.

My guess is it was part of a larger collection that was consigned. Doesn't have to be a baseball collector.

First I cringed when I read thread yesterday and saw auction was still ongoing.
Second as a proud NJ native I am always happy to see images of the Paterson Silk weavers nickname Silk Sox. I have seen 3 team images of the team. And a good friend of mine has the copy that hung in Ed Barrow's Yankees office for many years. And there is a version from 1897 that has Wagner Barrow and Ed Delahanty. They are all wonderful images. I am including one of the alternate images The team with the Soby cup. This is similar to the image that hung in Barrows office. And the beer bottle from Patterson congratulating The 1897 team as reigning champs. This brewery grew into Ballentine brewing which was beer of NY Yankees for many years.

I don't agree with any of this "outing" an auction nonsense. None of it. Entirely possible the consignor inherited the piece and had no clue what it was worth. Is there a book somewhere where I can look this photo up and see what the last three sales were? Nope.

With the juice the item went for $9,375.00, IMO a steal. The image also comes in cabinet size. The cabinet version sold in the 1991 Copeland sale for $13,200.


The Swann auction this was sold in was NOT the photography auction, but instead their printed & manuscript Americana auction. IMO the item would have done better in the photography auction.

Dunno if it was a steal or not but here is a link http://www.gottahaveit.com/Honus_Wag...rs-LOT566.aspx to one that alegedly belonged to the Wagner estate.

Well I have to agree that there is no book that has the last 3 sales, But there is the Internet. And the internet was available to the consignor as well as to every member of the Auction house.
But there are reasons I disagree on "outing an ongoing auction" . First there is an auction section on this forum for members to alert others to upcoming auctions. Second If I had done the research and found this item registered early and gave them my financial info so that I could compete for the item. Then at the last few minutes of the auction someone alerts a forum full if like minded collectors that an item is selling cheap. I would not be happy.
As a member of net54 I like to think we are here to share our collections and knowledge to help each other I do not think that outing an auction or worse an Ebay deal is helpful. let's face it the thrill of the hunt is a part of collecting I enjoy it, and talking to fellow collectors over the past 40 plus years I know many share that enjoyment. jmho

That's what I was thinking as a possibility.

Interesting since it is neither a print or a manuscript, and they do have a photography department. Surprised they didn't suggest that to the consignor.

FWIW, the OP didn't think he was outing an auction since he truly believed it to already be over (re-read his post).

I collect items from my hometown of Paterson, NJ and I have several copies of this photo but the original is so much sweeter.

MY Bad!!!
 

Hi Guys:

SO SORRY for this mess! I TRULY looked at the auction and thought it was over. I thought the site said SOLD FOR $900 or whatever it was when I posted.

I had watched this for awhile and sent myself a reminder to check the auction when the day came.

Serves me right for putting my nose into things I don't have much knowledge about (Pre War).

All I can do is ask your forgiveness. I am just reading this now. I had checked the box for instant email notifications when people reply, however, I have received only one or two for the first replies. So I am seeing all this tonight for the first time or I would have replied sooner.

Again, SO SORRY. I do know the rule not to out auctions. Believe me this is the first and last time I will ask anything about an auction.

Fred McKie

Don't worry about it Fred, honest mistake. The winner is thrilled, the consignor I'm sure is happy, happy endings all around.

Steve is 100% right. Too often old collectors pass away and their families are left to dispose of hoards of material that they know nothing about. Perhaps an elderly man passed away and his widow gathered up his stuff and brought it to Swanns to auction. Had this item not been outed she would have been shortchanged by even more than she was (the photo still went cheap). The fun of the hobby is collecting, not taking advantage of people.
If I see something in an auction or on EBay that I think a friend of mine collects and might miss I always contact them; they do the same for me. Outing an auction on the board is simply an extension of this.

I'll go with Jay and Steve on this. If the board prefers a no outing policy, that's fine. But how many times have any of us consigned an item and seen it go for less than we expected? And wouldn't it have been nice if one more serious bidder knew about the auction?

We all want to get top dollar for our consignments, and when we bid get incredibly good deals, but when you get that good deal somebody else is getting burned. Stay quiet if you prefer but I don't think outing is such a terrible thing.

Stuff sells for less than expected all of the time. If you don’t want that risk don’t sell in an auction format. Leon can do what he wants but the last sentence of your first paragraph to me suggests scenarios where people “out” auctions on this board to draw attention to their consignment.

Secondly, if I scour obscure auctions to find something and I locate something I want to bid on, it’s really frustrating to come on this board and see something posted about it, particularly so when the post comes from someone who isn’t bidding.

I think Fred made a simple mistake- he was curious about a piece and asked a question after he thought the auction was over. He wasn’t outing an auction to drum up interest in the piece, which I think is a terrible thing to see happen here.

Hypothetical question Jay - if I see an uncatalogurd OJ player in a tiny auction and I don’t want the card (I would but whatever) - would you prefer I email you about it or post about it here for the whole collecting world to see?

Fred, my thoughts exactly !

Chris- Two thoughts. I agree it is odd when someone with no financial or bidding interest outs a lot. I don't know what their motivation is other than draw attention to themselves, I guess.

Second, people can out their own consignments on the board, if I read your comment correctly. THere is a section on BST to do that, either lots one has on ebay or with an auction house.

Ideally, it's probably best not to out. But how realistic is it to assume you found something on ebay and nobody but you saw it? I think people find most of these things eventually. Sure, you may miss a chance to buy something but you will have plenty of other opportunities down the road.

Obviously in this case Fred made a mistake and that is fine, nobody is upset with him about it, nor should they be. Mistakes happen all the time, I know because I’m usually the one making them!

As far as outing auctions go... one of the most enjoyable aspects of collecting is finding a deal or getting a great item for a good deal. Often times that deal was found because of knowledge you possess that has taken time and research to gain, sometimes it is just luck. If you spend hours a day scouring eBay rabbit-holes just to have someone else post your findings to a community board where someone with deeper pockets swoops in and outbids you... that is super frustrating.

Also, I have never understood the thought process that somehow the Consignor is somehow “owed” or “deserves” top dollar for their item, especially if they have no idea what it is or why it is worth money. There is nothing sacred about their claim any more than the collector that is looking to purchase an item and SURPRISE would love to find something for a good deal.

If anybody was at an antique show (not a baseball card show) and they were going through a paper dealers stuff and found a nice card or item (say for example something like a small stack of Old Judge cards with a Deacon White and Bid McPhee in there) and the seller was asking $20/each for the cards... every person that knows would buy that stack of cards right then and there. The reality is that that dealer probably paid far less then what they were selling them for, there is no sacred duty to help that collector/dealer to maximize returns.

That being said, I reserve the right to break my rules at times. I have been the one to point out something to a seller that they may not have known as a favor (usually I know them or consider them a friend.) I have also done the opposite as well, I was once at a paper show and found a valuable autograped postcard that I later sold for $1500-2000 or so in a stack of postcards with a $10 price. I was toying with idea in my head that maybe I should say something BUT the dealer was so rude to everyone during the 20 Minutes I was at his table I just paid for the item and walked away with a nice find.

Barry, in reference to your last paragraph, I think it happens more than you think. I find items all the time that are poorly listed and sometimes I’m the only bidder. I don’t think Chris is saying no one else will find it, but if you find a hidden gem, would you rather be bidding against 5 people or 500?

And I’m not all for ripping people off, but if people inherit items, why aren’t they expected to do some due diligence to find out if they’re selling something of value. With all that’s out there on the internet, it’s really not that difficult.

I agree with those 2 guys!!

Must be a dental thing Pete.

It doesn’t happen like it used to Barry but it does still happen. In late July I found a RPPC on eBay that had several NY Giants in it - one of them happened to be Jim Thorpe.

I won it for the opening bid. Only bidder.

If someone outed that auction before it ended?

A few months ago, an elderly neighbor called me to look at some mail she received. Her husband died a few months ago and she received a letter in the mail from some sketchy real estate company offering to buy her house in cash immediately. For about half of what it was worth. I guess this is a business angle. Comb the obituaries and find widows who are floundering financially and try to get their home for about half of its fair market value.

I reviewed the letter to her and explained that these guys were trying to get her home for a fraction of what it was worth and she should throw the letter in the garbage.

Did I "out" their business model. Should I feel terrible about what I did?

I'm fine either way. I don't want to steal cards, just have a fair shot at them. My only regret would be not having the opportunity to bid.

Fair enough - to me if you put something up for sale it is the seller’s responsibility to make sure that they are getting the maximum they can for an item - not me as a buyer.

If someone came to me and wanted to sell an item I would certainly feel a responsibility to help them by pointing them to a reputable auction house that specializes in what they are selling. That said, I don’t believe it is the responsibility of potential buyers to look out for sellers of items currently for sale.

Chris-I hear you, but helping the seller achieve a market price is only part of it. Discussing an auction is also giving all potential buyers the opportunity to bid on the item, so no one misses something they collect and may have been looking for. In most markets full disclosure of information is the law. I am just suggesting that full disclosure in the hobby market benefits both the seller and potential buyers, and through increased transparency the hobby in general.