Poll: do Baines and/or Smith belong in the Hall?
 

Choose one of the 4 options below.

Not only do they not belong in, even if you could some how combine them into one person that guy STILL wouldn't belong in.

I said yes to Smith, no for Baines. I think Hershiser or Clark would have been better options than Baines. But I don't get why so many think closers don't belong. Smith was one of the all time greatest closers.

I voted "no" to both. But I did buy four autographed Smith & Baines Topps cards on eBay last night for my HOF autograph collection. HOF is a thing. :)

Over 200 in the HOF, Lee Smith 3rd All-Time in Saves. Baines 34th in RBI's, 46th in hits, 43rd in Total Bases and 60th in Extra Base Hits. So both are not that bad. Can't all be as good as Ruth, Cobb, etc.

Just realized nobody mentioned Dewey yet as a MUCH more deserving player than Baines

Dominant
 

I always like to see some form of dominance in a Hall member. I voted yes for Smith because when he retired he was #1 in career saves.

Baines just chugged along for 22 years. Six All-Star games. Never once in the top 5 in the MVP vote. I gave him a "no".

Same here, as above.

Keep in mind that you need to compare them with their peers. Clear yes for Big Lee! Bains was a good player but not HOF calibur.

No and no
 

Bob Feller wouldn’t have shown up if he were inducted with either of thrn.

I think it was Lee Smith who said to a reporter after blowing a crucial save “I’m suck”. Well he didn’t suck, but he belongs with Harold in the Hall of Very Good HOVG.

+1.

I didn't read all the replies, but these are pretty much my thoughts too.

Karl or Groucho?
 

“From each according to his ability and to each according to his needs”
A hall of fame for all, diverse and inclusive

Or

“I wouldn’t want to be a member of a hall of fame that would have me as a member”

Vote now

Marx, Marx, Both Marx or No Marx

I'm in agreement, voted the same way. I think closers will always face an uphill fight (outside of Rivera, for several reasons). It took 13 years for Bruce Sutter to gain election. I realize this is anecdotal but I watched many of his games. During those years when Bruce Sutter was at the top of his game, when his splitter was working, he seemed truly unhittable.

I voted yes on both. I don’t like the argument that this guy is better so this guy shouldn’t get in. There’s no cap on total number of players allowed in the hall of fame so there is room for both. It’s not a mutually exclusive type conversation.

I have no problem with relievers or dh's getting in the hall...they're both positions and should be represented. As for these two, I thought Smith should have already been in, but Baines is not sitting well after thinking about it over the last couple days. If you're a "duration" kind of player, you have to have hit some of the major milestones, added some value with your glove, or been a monster DH. I don't see Baines checking off any of those boxes. Next year is for the Modern Baseball Committee (1970-1987) to vote. That should be interesting.

Agree 100%. If Smith doesn't belong, then you need to kick out a bunch of relievers. If Baines doesn't belong, then there are a lot of other Veterans Committee picks that need to go too. These 2 guys clearly fit in the Hof's pattern of electing members.

Some may want the HOF to be exclusive. However, the HOF wants guys elected, that is how they stay profitable. Between 2001 and 2018, only 3 players were elected by the VC, a number of managers and executives made it. With 2 last year and 2 this year, don't be surprised to see more VC HOF picks.

That's a capital post.

Confused
 

How is it that the 16 person panel comprised Harold's former manager, former GM, and former owner? Only seven year ago, over 95% of baseball writers felt Baines did not belong in the Hall. If you're going to change that, could you at least pick a panel with a little more impartiality?

I voted no to both. Baines is not even close. This was a gift to the White Sox. He is not even in the hunt. While I understand some of the sentiment for Smith, this is an after thought. An attempt to elevate the role -- not a vote for him per se. Very few. Very few closers should be considered, and Smith is not among them.

I would add to that, I don't think players who played with him are the right voters either. Too much opportunity for cronyism, friendships, etc. For better or worse people not part of organized baseball should be voting IMO.

When I first saw the news of their induction, I thought I was reading The Onion. For reasons that other posters have already covered, I voted no on both.

I am solidly behind Smith. His induction bid with the writers was hurt by several things: Utterly forgettable name, poor relationship with the press, largely playing for bad teams. Still, when you retire #1 in the metric that is used to judge your position, a Hall of Fame nod is a reasonable expectation.

Interesting I Googled Lee Smith THIS MORNING and got several results back for the Oakland Raiders Tight End.

Off the top of my head, there are a dozen position players I would have taken over Baines, though I consider myself a fan. Definitely a low-end HOFer.

I reject Baines because my spellchecker changes his name to Gaines.:eek:

Smith is okay.:)

I had lunch with 4 non-baseball, but avid sports fans (football and basketball fans mostly). Ages 40-50.

None of the 4 had even HEARD the name of Baines or Smith!

They could name other baseball players, football players, soccer players, race car drivers, horses that won the triple crown ... heck one guy could even name a professional darts player.

But they never even HEARD of Baines or Smith (even after I prompted them by mentioning the teams they played for and positions they played).

If sports fans don't know your name ... you don't belong in the Hall of "Fame".

It's really that simple.

I suddenly realized I didn't have a single Baines or Smith card...

...so, just as I did went they let Mazeroski in, I went out and bought a 'representational group' of 15 cards of Baines & 10 of Smith...

heck, I had to add some Josh Donaldson cards anyway since he signed with the Braves.

I'll be darned if I'm going to try to get all the 1980s cards of each of them, though...that's ridiculous.


I hate seeing these two being called 'Chicago Legends' when Minnie Minoso is still on the outside!


Some day all those cards are going to be worth something....NOT!

It's just an addiction, plain and simple.

Earlier this year, I bulked up on players I think are likely future candidates...in a vain effort to not be so surprised.

I guess I need to pick up some Bobby Grich cards, huh?

Agree, and I'd add Billy Pierce as well.

These non-voted HOF appointments are always grossly biased and political. Many, many way better players than these two have been relegated to the dustbin forever. Thank the always political Tony La Russa!

300 votes as I post. 32 for Baines, 148 for Smith.

Minnie was used to being screwed. From his first season in the bigs when he got screwed out of the ROY award...

Ironically right about where the BBWAA had them.

Or not so ironic. The guys here are a pretty good representation, I would think, of people knowledgeable about the game and appreciative of the Hall.

Al Oliver was as good or better than Baines, and most fans barely remember who he was. He hit over .300 eleven times, including nine seasons in a row. 2743 career hits, 529 doubles, over 200 HR's, 1189 runs scored, 1326 RBI's, and he's fallen off the face of the earth.

Maybe Baines stats were somewhat better but he had nearly 1000 more at bats. I'm just a fan of Oliver who thinks the game has forgotten him.

Harpo and Groucho YES.

Chico, Zeppo, Gummo, and Karl NO.

Harpo is my favorite Marx Brother.

Real fans of the game know who Al Oliver was. Collusion cost him a shot at 3000 hits. He had an OPS+ 121 just like Baines.

Kaline/Baines
 

Baines compared to Kaline ( stats look about the same- that was a surprize to me ):
G Hits HR RBI Bave SLG
Kaline 2834 3007 399 1583 297 480
Baines 2830 2866 384 1628 289 465

If you are long time player and played with 12 of the people on the Veteran committee that vote than you are in

He did an autograph signing for me at a show I ran. What an absolute pleasure to be around. Not just a nice guy, he did everything he could to help out, as autographs didn't sell like we had hoped, traded trivia questions with me all day. Was really one of my hobby memory highlights. We discussed if he had remained with the Pirates his whole career would that have made a difference in HOF balloting. I think it would've had a massive impact. He has higher highs than Baines for sure.

As compared to Baines and Oliver, Dave Parker won an MVP, was 2nd once and 3rd twice I believe. Plus 2 batting titles.

Chico was pretty good on the piano.

to my knowledge, brothers Zeppo and Gummo were never part of the 'act'.

Harpo was my favorite too...classic mirror bit he did with Lucy!


=

Kaline and Baines
 

There are two huge differences between the two.

First, Kaline was an awesome right fielder, whereas Baines was a DH. In Kaline's best defensive season he saved 29 runs more than an average right fielder, whereas Brooks Robinson, possibly the greatest defensive player of all time, had only two seasons in which he saved more runs than that above an average third baseman. (Brooks pulls far ahead over the course of his career, but at his best Kaline was comparable to Brooks at his best.) Baines' best season was 8 runs above average, he was often below average in the field, and his spent most of his career as a DH.

The other big difference is that Kaline played through the mini-deadball era in the 1960s, whereas Baines mostly played in a much higher-scoring environment. So although their raw offensive numbers are pretty similar, once you adjust for the difficulty in putting up those numbers, Kaline comes out much better. (Maybe you have to do some complementary adjusting to their respective defensive numbers, but the defensive gap between the two is so huge that it's not going to make that much of a difference.)

Al Kaline was a 15 time all star and first ballot HOFer. There can be no serious equivalence here.

Zeppo was the straight man and heart throb in some of their early movies. Not sure about Gummo

Just a basic fact, Kaline had a battery named after him. Baines did not.

True, but Kaline was not the middle name of any president.

Zeppo was on Broadway with his brothers and appeared in The Cocoanuts, Animal Crackers, Monkey Business, Horsefeathers, and Duck Soup before leaving show business. He was best friends with Jack Benny and introduced Benny to his future wife Mary at a Passover seder.

NO to both, please......

Is someone actually comparing Baines to Al Kaline???:eek:

Kaline was my childhood hero. I have one of the top Kaline Master Collections on PSA. I was just showing how stats between Kaline and Baines, even though very close, there is no comparison between the two. It's amazing though how just looking at the offensive stats that they are that close ( between a first ballot HOF'er and someone very few of us consider a HOF'er).

I'm upset they picked Baines over Dave Parker. Parker was the more complete player and more dangerous hitter.