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T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set survey....MISSION COMPLETE
In response to recent requests, I'm reprising the American Beauty 460 info I have gleaned from trying to complete this very tough
T206 sub-set. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> There are 103 possible T206's that could've been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. However, there are always those tricky NO-PRINTS that keep you guessing. After 4 years of searching for AB 460 cards, it appears to me that approximately 30 subjects are NO-PRINTS. This of course is subject to revision, if additional AB 460's are found. The AB 460 back has a Factory 42 (Durham, North Carolina) identification. These cards were issued near the end of the T206 produc- tion run in early 1911. So, I thought it would be cool to collect this T206 sub-set.....and definitely challenging. Currently, I have 62 of these cards, and still searching. Listed here are the 67 confirmed AB 460 cards. The 350/460 Series subjects are listed first; and, the 460-only Series subjects follow..... 350/460 Series..................27 cards Ames (hands over head) Baker Berger Bradley (bat) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (bat) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Steinfeldt (bat) Tinker (bat off) Wagner (bat on right) Willetts Willis (bat) Wilhelm (bat) Wiltse (pitching) 460-only Series..................40 cards Abbaticcio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bergen (catching) Bridwell (cap) Camnitz (arms at side) Camnitz (arms up) Chance (bat) Chase (Trophy) Crandall (cap) Devore Doyle (portrait) Duffy Ford Gandil Geyer Howell (hands at waist) Hummell Lake (with ball) Latham Marquard (follow thru) McGraw (glove at hip) Meyers Needham Oldring (bat) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schulte (back view) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) H. Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on) Wheat Wiltse (portrait w/cap) If anyone on Net54 has additional AB 460 cards that are not on this list of 67 cards, please chime in and show or tell us of your AB 460's. Thanks very much, TED Z |
Thanks for the great information Ted. The only one I have is the Duffy, which is already on your list.
David R. |
David R......
You may be interested in this....the same day (in another thread) when you asked about the AB 460 list,
a Net54 reader emailed me requesting the same. Anyhow, are you tempted to try collecting the AB 460 cards ? Best regards, TED Z |
Hey Ted,
I don't think I have the patience. I am collecting the HOFers and trying to get as many different backs as I can. I have the Duffy AB 460. The only other one I came close on was a McGraw glove SGC 10 on eBay earlier this year that I think you outbid me on. I am currently looking for an AB 350 frame HOFer. Good luck on this subset -- it's tough. David R. |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
David R
You are correct, I won that AB 460 card of McGraw. Of course, I did not know that I was bidding against you. The "cryptic" bidders ID is one of ebay's features that ticks me off. I'd like to know who the other bidders are. TED Z |
My only AB 460 is Bridwell w/cap noted above.
JimB |
Ted
I have McGraw portrait with cap/sweater AB 460.
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Jim R......
Thanks for the new input, that brings us to a grand total of 70 confirmed American Beauty 460 cards.
Best regards ole buddy, TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
I found my Doc White (pitching) with an American Beauty 460 back.
So, that brings us to a grand total of 71 confirmed American Beauty 460 cards. And, this brings my AB 460 set's total to 63 cards. TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
A Net54 reader has emailed me with a Bell (pitching) with an AB 460 back.
This input increases the confirmed tally to 72 cards. I will be updating this survey later today. Thanks, TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey......UPDATED
WOW....since I have reprised this survey, there have been 7 new inputs in a little over a day. However small that might
sound, one has to appreciate that 66 confirmed AB 460 cards stood for over 4 years; and, now we have 73 confirmed. Eventually, I expect that 47 cards in the 460-only series will be confirmed....the one exception will be Kleinow (Boston). However, I would be surprised if many more cards beyond the current 30 from the 350/460 series were to be confirmed. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Listed here are the 73 confirmed AB 460 cards. The 350/460 Series subjects are listed first; and, the 460-only Series subjects follow..... 350/460 Series..................30 cards Ames (hands over head) Baker Berger Bradley (bat) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (bat) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Steinfeldt (bat) Tinker (bat off) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (pitching) Willetts Willis (bat) Wilhelm (bat) Wiltse (pitching) 460-only Series..................43 cards Abbaticcio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (pitching) Bescher (arms above) Bergen (catching) Bridwell (cap) Camnitz (arms at side) Camnitz (arms up) Chance (bat) Chase (Trophy) Crandall (cap) Devore Doyle (portrait) Duffy Ford Gandil Geyer Howell (hands at waist) Hummell Lake (with ball) Latham Marquard (follow thru) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Meyers Needham Oldring (bat) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schulte (back view) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) H. Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on) Wheat Wiltse (portrait w/cap) If anyone on Net54 has any AB 460 cards that are not listed here, please show or tell us about them. Thanks much for your continuing interest in these T206 surveys. TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
Thanks to a Net54 reader of this thread, I have added 4 more cards to my AB 460 sub-set. Now, I have 66 cards,
and still searching. My experience indicates that most of the tougher AB 460 cards are from the 350/460 series....e.g. Lajoie, Leach, Wilhelm, Doc White, etc.. And, some of the tougher ones from the 460-only series are Duffy, Needham, Smith (Chi & Bos), Wheat, etc.. <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abduflajleaneesmiwhewilwhi.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> OK, we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 back. Now is not the time to surrender to the Monster....let's see how many more of the remaining 30 subjects can be confirmed ? Thanks again for your participation in this T206 survey. T-Rex TED |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
Just a reminder....while these 6 super-prints can be found with as many as 24 different T206 backs....
they were NOT printed with the American Beauty 460 back. Fair warning....if you find any one of these 6 with an AB 460 back....it is a FAKE ! <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/asov6superprints.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Now, you guys are making me sound like a "genius", when I said in my initial post here that...... " There are 103 possible T206's that could've been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. However, there are always those tricky NO-PRINTS that keep you guessing. After 4 years of searching for AB 460 cards, it appears to me that approximately 30 subjects are NO-PRINTS. " OK, we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 back. So surprise-surprise, that does leave us with 30 cards.....and am I a genius ?......I say NO. Just a lucky guess, or perhaps an educated guess. In any event, I think there are more AB 460 cards to be discovered. So, let's see how many more of the remaining 30 subjects you guys can confirm ? Thanks again for your participation in this T206 survey. T-Rex TED |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
Let's give this survey one more go around. We have 73 cards confirmed with the American Beauty 460 back.
This time I have posted the list of cards we are looking that have not been confirmed. 350/460 Series......cards needed with AB 460 Bender (no trees)..............HOF M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Griffith (bat)......................HOF Johnson (pitching)..............HOF Joss (pitching)...................HOF Konetchy (glove low) Magee (bat) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees) Overall (yellow sky) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat) Seymour (throwing) Stahl (glove) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Willis (throwing).................HOF CYoung (glove)..................HOF 460-only Series......cards needed with AB 460 Frill Herzog (Boston) Kleinow (Boston) Merkle (throwing) Murray (portrait) Thanks again for taking the time and effort to check your T206 collections for any of these cards. TED Z |
Hi Ted,
I was curious and maybe this has been covered but I have a Seymour throwing 350 no frame. Are there 350 and 460 versions with no frame. The only card I have ever had with 350 and 460 backs are the Manning pitching, I still own the 460 but don't remember if the 350 was framed or not. Lee |
Lee B......
1st......Re..Seymour (throwing) has not yet been confirmed with an AB 460.
2nd......Your Manning (pitching) would have been an AB 350 No Frame (NF). Lee To my knowledge there are only 20 of the 55 cards from the 350/460 series that are found with both the AB 350NF and AB 460NF backs. I will list them in a subsequent post. Regards, TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
As requested......
All T206's from the 350/460 series with American Beauty backs were printed without the stylized FRAME that is found on the American Beauty (AB) cards in the 350-only series. Of the 55 cards in the 350/460 series, some are found with AB 350....some with AB 460....and, 18 subjects are confirmed with both the AB 350 and AB 460 backs. Those 18 are listed here. ...................Fall/Winter 1910............................Spring 1911 <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> ...................Factory 25, VA............................Factory 42, N.C. Here are the 18 - T206's that have been confirmed with both of the No Frame American Beauty backs. Burch (fielding) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (bat) Lake (no ball) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Steinfeldt (bat) Wagner (bat/right) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) If anyone here has any new AB inputs that we can add to this survey, please show or tell us. Check-out your T206's and compare them with the lists posted in this thread. Thanks much. TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
One T206 guy with an American Beauty 350 (no frame) back, that you wont find with an American Beauty 460 back, is
Simon Nichols (with bat). Although, this card is classified as a 350-only subject, it was actually intended as a 350/460 candidate. My theory is.....that American Lithographic did not extend this card into the 460 series since Nichols retired from the major leagues just prior to the release of the 460 series cards. If someone here has an alternative explanation for this T206 front/back anomaly, please present it ? <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abt206nichollsbat.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> Recall that we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 backs....so, when you get a chance, check-out this wantlist and see if you have any of those cards in your T206 collection. 350/460 Series......cards needed with AB 460 Bender (no trees)..............HOF M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Griffith (bat)......................HOF Johnson (pitching)..............HOF Joss (pitching)...................HOF Konetchy (glove low) Magee (bat) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees) Overall (yellow sky) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat) Seymour (throwing) Stahl (glove) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Willis (throwing).................HOF CYoung (glove)..................HOF 460-only Series......cards needed with AB 460 Frill Herzog (Boston) Kleinow (Boston) Merkle (throwing) Murray (portrait) Thanks much, guys. TED Z |
T206 American Beauty 460 sub-set survey
Since this thread disappeared below the radar screen, I have acquired 2 more for my set. Only need 5
more to go....that is assuming that the 73 confirmed AB 460 cards complete this Tobacco run. Any help with these 5 for my set is deeply appreciated. Baker Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Jennings (two hands) Oldring (bat) To date, we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 backs. So, when you get a chance, check-out this list to see if you have any of these cards in your T206 collection with an AB 460 back. 350/460 Series......cards needed with AB 460 Bender (no trees)..............HOF M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Griffith (bat)......................HOF Johnson (pitching)..............HOF Joss (pitching)...................HOF Konetchy (glove low) Magee (bat) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees) Overall (yellow sky) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat) Seymour (throwing) Stahl (glove) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Willis (throwing).................HOF CYoung (glove)..................HOF 460-only Series......cards needed with AB 460 Frill Herzog (Boston) Kleinow (Boston) Merkle (throwing) Murray (portrait) Thanks everyone for your help in conducting this survey. TED Z |
T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
A Net54 reader has reported a CYoung (glove) with an AB 460 back.
Before I add it to the list it, I will check it out. TED Z |
T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
A Net54 reader emailed me with a possible sighting of a CYoung (glove) with an AB 460 back. At this point, I cannot
accept it as a confirmed input until I see it, or a 2nd one is reported. This reminds me to introduce the following rule. Subjects in the 350/460 series that have been confirmed with Red HINDU backs are NOT found with AB 460 backs...... these 2 backs are mutually exclusive in this series of 55 cards (Note, there may be one or two exceptions to this rule). <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bredhindudonmcg.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> List of 350/460 Series cards still NEEDED with AB 460 backs....**annotated cards have been confirmed with Red HINDU backs; and, I do NOT expect these cards to be found with AB 460 backs. Bender (no trees)...................** M. Brown (Chicago)................** Davis (A's)............................** Donlin (bat)...........................** Doolan (bat)..........................** Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat)........................** Doyle (bat)...........................** Griffith (bat)..........................** Johnson (pitching)..................** Joss (pitching).......................** Konetchy (glove low)..............** Magee (bat)..........................** McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands/knees).............** Overall (yellow sky) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (bat)..........................** Seymour (throwing)................** Stahl (glove).........................** Street (catching)...................** Sweeney (fielding)..................** Willis (throwing).....................** CYoung (glove)......................** You are welcome to prove me wrong regarding this "mutual exclusivity" rule......or, reinforce this rule. Either way, have fun checking out your T206's "one more once". OK, you Jazz aficiandos....what great Jazz artist would encore his riff with the lyrics...."one more once" ? TED Z |
Ted,
Great stuff, you certainly have pulled out the monster's teeth. |
Michel Camilo
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T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
Therefore, if my above analysis is correct, we should expect to eventually find the following 5 cards with AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 backs.....if we do not first find them with Red HINDU backs. My experience shows that the AB 460 back is very underrated. It is much scarcer than most T206 collectors realize. Further reinforcement of this fact is, that no AMERICAN BEAUTY (Factory 42) cigarette packs have been found. .................................................. ..................Factory 42 <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bredhindudonmcg.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> 350/460 series cards........ Dougherty (arm in air) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) Murphy (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Reulbach (no glove) These 5 could possibly be No Prints. On the other hand, perhaps someone on Net54 (or a reader of Net54) may just surprise us by reporting any one of these 5 with an AB 460 back ? Thanks every one for your efforts in these type of surveys. TED Z |
Ted Z
I checked my AB pack and it's fact.25 not 42---just throwin' a li'l late night
corroboration your way. By the way, i do like ole Doc Duet's language of your 'pulling the monster's teeth'. all the best, barry |
Barry A......
Indeed, Darren is a cool dude regarding all aspects of "The Monster".
He's the guy who convinced me some years ago that the 1910 COUPON cards are indeed T206's. Thanks Darren. Regards ole buddy, TED Z |
Ted
i'm not surprised! those Louisiana fellas know their cards and certainly had quite a few unique types come out of that one state!
alll the best to you, ole buddy barry |
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T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
Gee, what happened to the Net54 "Jazz buffs" ?
I would of thought Barry S, or Jodi B, or any one else, would have already answered my Trivia question in post #21 ? TED Z |
Ted would that be the "Count"?
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Count Basie, that is
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convinced?
Quote:
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Ted- I hadn't looked at this thread in a while. If I did I would have told you Count Basie, as others have.
Did you find the Home Run Baker with red Hindu back? It was my November 16, 2006 auction, lot #50. |
paper stock?
While I'm not totally disagreeing with you, Leon...if paper stock were the smoking gun...then maybe e97 b/w's/proofs shouldn't even be classified as e97's...they should be a totally separate issue...e-unc? I'm sure there are others. There will always be the t213-1/t206 debate...among others...hell...we need issues to bicker about...if everything were known...we'd have nothing to talk about?
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Barry S......
Thanks, I have yet to find it....and now that you informed of it, I can stop searching.
Regards, TED Z |
Hey Pete
Quote:
For the record no one that has any hobby experience considers the E97's as proofs. It's absurd to think they are, imo. Since they have the same exact poses I consider them a subset of E97, maybe E97-2. I also think they could actually be a whole different set but since there is precedence in other sets (such as E254 "proofs") I leave them as E97. For the record my feelings on E254 are the same as E97. Both of the E sets that are "proofs" have blank backs. The T213-1 set has a different back, though the caligraphy is similar to other of T206, and I just can't make that leap. There is no Coupon T206 and, if I am not mistaking, the factory and district are different than any other also. (I haven't looked that up though) It's a good debate......and your are right. Without these nuances what would we talk about? |
I believe someone on here was selling a Baker with a Red Hindu back maybe 5-6 months ago....might be the same one Barry is referencing.
Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say thanks to Ted for another interesting thread. There is so much information on this set, and it is nice to read about it little by little. I don't have anything to contribute to this thread, as I do not own any AB backs yet. 'Tis my goal for the first of the year though. |
T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
Good to hear from you Peter.....you got it....The Count from Red Bank, NJ......Count Basie.
Thanks, TED Z |
Trio of Trivia Kings
Peter Thomas first, then Darren and Barry all guessed it, it was Count Basie.
"April in Paris....Chestnuts in Blossom....Holiday tables under the trees.... April in Paris....this is the feeling....no one can ever reprise" Thanks guys....this brings back some great memories. TED Z |
Quote:
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Try to catch Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong doing "April in Paris" together...it was never done better.
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Quote:
I may pick it up myself after the holidays. |
Dave- there was an extensive article about those recordings in this past Sunday's New York Times. They sound like classic performances.
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Barry S......
Gee, I hijacked my own thread with the Jazz trivia. Now, let's switch this AB 460 train back onto the main track.
There is no doubt about Baker with a Red HINDU back, so now I'm checking out Baker with an AB 460 back. Regards, TED Z |
T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
I'll be back Monday after the Philly Show....and, I hope to have acquired some more AB 460 cards for my sub-set.
Also, I'm hoping that you guys might have some more AB 460 inputs for this thread. Thanks, T-Rex TED |
T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
I'm reprising this thread to correct the entry of Home Run Baker. This card indeed exists with a Red HINDU back. Therefore, I was skeptical of
previous data that showed it with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back. Upon further investigation, I found out that Baker has only been confirmed with an AB 350 back....and, not an AB 460 back. Here is the new UPDATED list....we are back to 70 confirmed AB 460 subjects...... <img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> 350/460 Series..................27 cards Ames (hands over head) Berger Bradley (bat) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (bat) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Steinfeldt (bat) Tinker (bat off) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (pitching) Willetts Willis (bat) Wilhelm (bat) Wiltse (pitching) 460-only Series..................43 cards Abbaticcio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (pitching) Bescher (arms above) Bergen (catching) Bridwell (cap) Camnitz (arms at side) Camnitz (arms up) Chance (bat) Chase (Trophy) Crandall (cap) Devore Doyle (portrait) Duffy Ford Gandil Geyer Howell (hands at waist) Hummell Lake (with ball) Latham Marquard (follow thru) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Meyers Needham Oldring (bat) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schulte (back view) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) H. Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on) Wheat Wiltse (portrait w/cap) If anyone on Net54 has any AB 460 cards that are not listed here, please show or tell us about them. Thanks much TED Z |
T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU exclusivity
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
By applying the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU "mutually exclusive rule", we have narrowed down the number of cards still needed to be confirmed with the AB 460 back to these 10 cards...... Dougherty (arm in air) Elberfeld (Wash-fielding) Frill Herzog McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi) Merkle (throwing) Murphy (bat) Murray (portrait) Overall (yellow sky) Reulbach (no glove) Please check out your T206's to see if you have any of these with an AB 460 back. Thanks, TED Z |
my AB 460 list
1. Jennings one hand 2. Ford 3. Crandall 4. Latham 5. Lake ST. Louis no ball 6. McGraw glove at hip 7. McGraw cap 8. Leach bending over 9. Meyers portrait 10. Payne 11. Pfeffer 12. Sheckard 13. Gandil |
Ted,
that list of ten is very similar to my list of Cycle 460s getting narrowed down. I do not believe I have have seen of known of more than 2 of each of the Cycle 460 copies of those 10 ABs listed. Any chance that some of these cards got double printed or 2 different series? |
not sure about Herzog AB 460 but I am sure he exist in Cycle 460
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