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-   -   Who bought this?? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161043)

gnaz01 01-05-2013 08:44 AM

Who bought this??
 
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I was going to bid on this at the last second until I saw what it went for :eek: Isn't this Matty in a Bucknell Sweater?? Definitely NOT from 1909, a very young Matty!!

3-2-count 01-05-2013 08:52 AM

Was following it Greg, but my bid was blown away. Nice photo whoever snagged it.

gnaz01 01-05-2013 08:57 AM

Yeah Tony, me too. I had a $1500 bid on it, but was taken out. I think I may know who bought it, and it is a board member. Hope they chine in!! LOVE THIS PHOTO and if they decide to sell it, hope they give me first dibs :D

bigtrain 01-05-2013 10:02 AM

Great photo. Love the glove, barely bigger than his hand.

CW 01-05-2013 10:13 AM

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Let's just get this out of the way right now.... :)

jacksons 01-05-2013 10:37 AM

'twas not I, and yea that looks like a Bucknell sweater. Could be a photo taken while a Giant though and he's just wearing his old warmup top.

I've seen Giants photos of him and he looks younger than he does in this one.

gnaz01 01-05-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CW (Post 1069781)
Let's just get this out of the way right now.... :)

:D

Mr. Mitt 01-05-2013 10:50 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtrain (Post 1069779)
Great photo. Love the glove, barely bigger than his hand.

Not completely certain, but looks like an old Reach patch on the back of a webless glove. Possibly a webless crescent glove, similar to this one, dating from the mid-1890's.

CarltonHendricks 01-05-2013 11:48 AM

Link
 
Can someone post a link so I could see what it went for?....is that a press photo?....if gnaz01 was blown out at $1500.00 my curiosity is piqued

gnaz01 01-05-2013 12:34 PM

Here you go Carlton:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-CHRI...p2047675.l2557

GKreindler 01-05-2013 01:26 PM

It was DEFINITELY a beaut. I think whoever won it got a steal.

The only thing that I've been really wondering about is when and where it's from. At first glance, I was pretty sure it was the Polo Grounds, but I can't seem to exactly match any of my photos of the ballpark from the turn of the century to the same depicted one. Also, Matty seems to be wearing his away uniform, from what I can tell in gray scale.

But then again, it kinda looks like this photo has a similar sky-scape to other shots of the Polo Grounds from the same era. I'm referring mainly to the tallish building that was beyond the leftfield wall. Is it possible that this was taken over the fence in Manhattan Field during some warmups?

Or am I just crazy?

Graig

gnaz01 01-05-2013 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKreindler (Post 1069854)
It was DEFINITELY a beaut. I think whoever won it got a steal.

The only thing that I've been really wondering about is when and where it's from. At first glance, I was pretty sure it was the Polo Grounds, but I can't seem to exactly match any of my photos of the ballpark from the turn of the century to the same depicted one. Also, Matty seems to be wearing his away uniform, from what I can tell in gray scale.

But then again, it kinda looks like this photo has a similar sky-scape to other shots of the Polo Grounds from the same era. I'm referring mainly to the tallish building that was beyond the leftfield wall. Is it possible that this was taken over the fence in Manhattan Field during some warmups?

Or am I just crazy?

Graig

Graig,

The sweater has a large "B" on it, which is why I thought it was Bucknell.

BigJJ 01-05-2013 01:38 PM

Thank you guys. I bought the photo. my review continues.
what I think is special is - the iconic and confident "I'm ready" signal that Mathewson is giving with his arm and the ball, love the image - the Bucknell presentation, which with Gehrig at Columbia, are arguably the two biggest early college connections - and how early the image appears to be.
With regard to date, I agree and believe the photo dates to a number of years earlier, lot of review this past week. while it is arguable, based on a number of factors, I believe the photo dates to 1898-1902:
(i) Mathewson is in his Bucknell sweater. He attended Bucknell through 1899.
(ii) arguably, he would not wear his college sweater in the pros, as most did not attend college, and were fighting to live and eat. at least I do not think he would have worn beyond the initial try-outs, practices, and maybe start of his play with the Giants. he was a very humble and pious person, I do not believe, personally, this would fit his way, to wear his college sweater if he had another suitable sweater available.
(iii) Mathewson is pictured in Giants sweaters during warm-ups post-1905, and specifically in 1909 and 1910.
(iv) it looks to be a winter, or early spring, northern college warmup, or possibly a northern pro tryout/warmup.
(v) agree that the no webb mitt looks like a mid-1890s model. almost like a workmans glove.
(vi) does not appear to be 30 years old, looks to be about 20 or so.
(vii) does not look like Polo Grounds or any stadium I know from 1909 era. could be very early Polo Grounds, maybe someone has knowledge/photos in this regard?
Thank you for the earlier comments and additional background.

BigJJ 01-05-2013 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CW (Post 1069781)
Let's just get this out of the way right now.... :)

Im cracking up

gnaz01 01-05-2013 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJJ (Post 1069862)
Thank you guys. I bought the photo. my review continues.
what I think is special is - the iconic and confident "I'm ready" signal that Mathewson is giving with his arm and the ball, love the image - the Bucknell presentation, which with Gehrig at Columbia, are arguably the two biggest early college connections - and how early the image appears to be.
With regard to date, I agree and believe the photo dates to a number of years earlier, lot of review this past week. while it is arguable, based on a number of factors, I believe the photo dates to 1898-1902:
(i) Mathewson is in his Bucknell sweater. He attended Bucknell through 1899.
(ii) arguably, he would not wear his college sweater in the pros, as most did not attend college, and were fighting to live and eat. at least I do not think he would have worn beyond the initial try-outs, practices, and maybe start of his play with the Giants. he was a very humble and pious person, I do not believe, personally, this would fit his way, to wear his college sweater if he had another suitable sweater available.
(iii) Mathewson is pictured in Giants sweaters during warm-ups post-1905, and specifically in 1909 and 1910.
(iv) it looks to be a winter, or early spring, northern college warmup, or possibly a northern pro tryout/warmup.
(v) agree that the no webb mitt looks like a mid-1890s model. almost like a workmans glove.
(vi) does not appear to be 30 years old, looks to be about 20 or so.
(vii) does not look like Polo Grounds or any stadium I know from 1909 era. could be very early Polo Grounds, maybe someone has knowledge/photos in this regard?
Thank you for the earlier comments and additional background.

Well my friend, IF YOU EVER decide to sell, I hope I get a shot at it please :D

GKreindler 01-05-2013 01:50 PM

Crap. Actually, I take it back. It IS the Polo Grounds. And it's really early. From what I found, it seems as if the third base-side/left field stands followed that design in 1901 at least. Check out this shot of Manhattan Field from 1901, with the Polo Grounds directly next to it.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psbaa1027c.jpg

And apparently, that design had already been changed by 1904:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psf198459e.jpg

So, whoever won it got themselves a pretty damn early image of Matty. Possibly from his first couple of seasons. That would certainly tie in with the Bucknell sweater.

Wowzas!!!

Graig

slidekellyslide 01-05-2013 05:42 PM

Great photo!

prewarsports 01-05-2013 05:51 PM

FYI, College guys used to wear their sweaters for YEARS after they graduated. It was a sense of pride for them especially Football guys (which Matty was). I bet I have 30 photos here at my house right now of athletes well after their graduations wearing their College sweaters.

Its a great photo and I bid on it, but it is not from his years at Bucknell I am 99.9% sure. He is older than in other pictures and I bet its from 1904-05.

Rhys

BigJJ 01-05-2013 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GKreindler (Post 1069874)
It IS the Polo Grounds. And it's really early. From what I found, it seems as if the third base-side/left field stands followed that design in 1901 at least. Check out this shot of Manhattan Field from 1901, with the Polo Grounds directly next to it. And apparently, that design had already been changed by 1904.Graig

Thank you.

Would love to ID the one taller building in the photo, perhaps that would more firmly ID the place and time. would also love to learn when that Polo Grounds design began, if already in place in a photo in 1901. great info regarding 1904 change.

ruth-gehrig 01-05-2013 07:46 PM

So I have to ask....if Henry Yee sold it in his last auction it would have sold for $____.00

Exhibitman 01-05-2013 08:28 PM

Fantastic.
Another culver archive piece. We are in a golden age of photos due to all the archive closures

Jaybird 01-05-2013 11:04 PM

Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/...psf7d8545d.png

Runscott 01-06-2013 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybird (Post 1070027)
Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/...psf7d8545d.png

Nice detective-work, Jason.

GKreindler 01-06-2013 12:52 PM

So, I have been emailing back and forth with Jon, as well as researching, and I think I found a bit more information.

I had an image in a magazine that was of a game at the Polo Grounds from early May of 1903. I couldn't really scan it because of some clutter issues on my workspace, but I snapped a shot with my phone.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ps8551d3f3.jpg

There you can clearly see that the leftfield stands are in the same configuration as the Matty photo. So, with that in mind, it's fair to say that they were changed sometime between then and the 1904 photo I posted a page back. I would imagine that the construction happened between seasons, so I would feel comfortable leaving off 1904 as an option all together. Granted, it could have certainly happened during the year - Yankee Stadium in '36 (bleacher configuration) and '37 (right field decks in foul territory) comes to mind, but I figured that it was an alright bet to think otherwise.

Interestingly enough, with the enclosed May of '03 photo, we can also see the actual advertisement on the wall - Pall Mall. It's not the same one in the photo of Matty. Typically, ballpark advertisements were changed in the off-season (though sometimes, it could happen in mid-season or before the World Series, and in some cases, even more than once in a season), so I might guess that the photo isn't from 1903, either. That would put it between 1901 and 1902. And really, if you look at the Polo Grounds Temple Cup lithograph from 1894, the stands seem to have that same configuration.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ps122ad119.jpg

So, there's no reason not to think that they weren't like that in 1900, Matty's first year with the Giants.

I'll keep looking, but right now, I think the date of the image is somewhere between 1900 and 1902. Now, because it's tough to come across shots of the ballpark from the early turn of the century, I can't really say all of this with 100% certainty. But if nothing else, it's a good place to start.

And if it is from those years, definitely not a bad purchase. It's perhaps one of the earliest images of Matty in the pros.

Graig

yanks12025 01-06-2013 01:11 PM

Here's a pic supposedly from 1901.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...ntoryid=109536

Dto7 01-06-2013 01:29 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybird (Post 1070027)
Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/...psf7d8545d.png

Here's that same photo that appeared in newspapers in 1905. November 22 and December 1, 1905.

yanks12025 01-06-2013 01:38 PM

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I just found another one of this same photo sold back in 2002. But it's cut down more then yours.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=21272

prewarsports 01-06-2013 04:39 PM

Assuming this is a Home Game (at Polo Grounds) the Giants did not wear Dark Caps at home until 1903 so that is the earliest it could be. I believe this to be a 1904 image, but it can only be 1903-1904 for sure based on the hat/socks.

Rhys

BigJJ 01-06-2013 04:40 PM

Thank you for your research - and especially Graig for your ball park research, locating and analyzing the changing configurations, ads, and surroundings of the early Polo Grounds. appreciate the time and mind. Based on the circa 1895 to 1903 Polo Ground configuration, Mathewson's joining the team in 1900, and the ads not matching for 1901 and 1903, we have ruled out all but 1902 and 1900. Have a strong feeling it is 1900. Continuing the hunt for that elusive 1900 ad photo.
Best,
Jon

Runscott 01-06-2013 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJJ (Post 1070214)
Thank you for your research - and especially Graig for your ball park research, locating and analyzing the changing configurations, ads, and surroundings of the early Polo Grounds. appreciate the time and mind. Based on the circa 1895 to 1903 Polo Ground configuration, Mathewson's joining the team in 1900, and the ads not matching for 1901 and 1903, we have ruled out all but 1902 and 1900. Have a strong feeling it is 1900. Continuing the hunt for that elusive 1900 ad photo.
Best,
Jon

I wouldn't discount Rhys' opinion. The uniform is pretty important.

prewarsports 01-06-2013 05:06 PM

Dark hat + Dark Socks + at Polo Grounds = 1903 at earliest.

The did not wear those combos in any other year. That is more definative than the estimate year of the ad configurations.

BigJJ 01-06-2013 05:23 PM

Was writing as the other post came in.

It happens in this case, after much review, that the Polo Grounds stadium configuration that Mathewson is pictured in did not exist after the 1903 season.

Mathewson happens to be in a sweater which is not Giants issue, with regard to whether other items are, or are not, and specifically his hat, I do not know at this time. Perhaps the hat was Mathewson's as well.

It is clearly the Polo Grounds as configured from c.1895-1903. If we can just find the ads, can tell definatively whether it is 1902 or 1900. given a number of factors, we believe it is 1900.

Best,
Jon

bmarlowe1 01-06-2013 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybird (Post 1070027)
Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/...psf7d8545d.png

FWIW - in 1906 the Giants uniforms said "World's Champions," not "New York." They also wore pillbox style dark caps in 1904 and 1905. The cap here (and in the photo that started this thread) is very different. This photo (just above) is very likely earlier than claimed, but is hard (for me) to date.

Dto7 01-07-2013 04:25 AM

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Here's a photo of a football game at the Polo Grounds 9/27/1903 where the wall ads are in the opening photo.

BigJJ 01-07-2013 05:13 AM

Thanks for the clear shot indicating it is not 1903.
headed to the NY public library today to see if I can find more information.

BigJJ 01-07-2013 03:28 PM

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Back from the library.
I think we need to update the uniform references we use.
I found a number of pictures of Giants in both 1900 and 1902 wearing dark plain caps and socks, as in the Mathewson photo. I did not check other years.
There is a big picture of Mathewson, in uniform, wearing such a dark plain cap and socks in the New York Daily News on May 9, 1902. The article that runs with the picture describes an away game in Chicago. I do not know if the photo is a file photo, or one from the game. The photo was reprinted for another article on June 29, 1902, so it may be a file photo, but that was for an away game as well, this time in Philadelphia, so I believe they used the photo as a file photo for Mathewson to print for away games. The News from April 17, 1902 showed the team ready to play its first home game, and the team was in white caps. I believe the away cap was a dark in 1902. or a plain dark cap was an alternate hat for home/road, but it should be formally listed in our references. more research is likely needed.
With regard to 1900 (and 1901) unfortunately the NY library does not have the Daily News if you can believe it. so, for 1900, I was left with small pictures from The New York Herald. I couldn't post because the pictures from The Herald are so small, but I could see on the small microfilm, Jack Doyle in play on April 12, 1900 in a plain dark cap. I do not know if this was a file photo or one from the current 1900 season.
Unfortunately, there were scant pictures of the ads at the Polo Grounds, so it is not any clearer to me when in the 1900-1902 timeframe the Mathewson photo could be from. I'm including 1901, as we do not know what month the 1901 Polo Grounds photo we have is from, though the liklihood remains 1900 or 1902.

BigJJ 01-07-2013 03:41 PM

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full picture

Dto7 01-08-2013 09:13 AM

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They did wear dark hats for road games in 1902

prewarsports 01-08-2013 11:56 AM

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I just remembered I had this, its an 1899-1900 (would be preseason 1900, around early spring) cabinet photo of the Polo Grounds and Manhattan Field with the wall in question clearly visible. Looks like there is white paint on it for some reason but its the same spot behind Matty in the photo. I dont know if this helps or not but here it is.

Rhys

BigJJ 01-08-2013 02:53 PM

Thank you for the 1899-1900 photo confirming configuration.

Wish we had the ads! Looks like the're getting ready to put new ones up in the photo.

J

BigJJ 01-08-2013 03:35 PM

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Graig found this, from Baseball Memories: 1900-1909, Marc Okkonen, Sterling Publishing Co., New York, page 214, dark hat and socks, Polo Grounds, April 1901

prewarsports 01-08-2013 04:59 PM

I would not put any faith in that photo with the dark hat and socks being from the Polo Grounds. I bet anything that was a stock photo used for a 1901 article for a game at the Polo Grounds (if even that specific) and that info was just reprinted in the book as it appeared in the newspaper. It is a neat picture but without anything concrete to pinpoint it to the Polo grounds, it is almost certainly an away photo used to report on a home game (stock photo of Matty). Reporters just did not take many pictures of Baseball players back in the day and one or two pictures would be all they had on file so they would use the same photo over and over again for whatever purpose they needed.

I bet you get the same price on it for resale whether its 1900 or 1901 or 1902 or 1903 because they all predate his 1903 Breisch Williams Baseball card so c. 1901 would cover your bases and I doubt there is any way to get more specific than that given the primitive nature of late 19th century/early 20th century Baseball photography.

Its a beautiful photo!

Rhys

Jaybird 01-08-2013 05:25 PM

Here's another photo from that era also stamped by Culver Pictures. For what it's worth, I like yours better.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...ntoryid=109536

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/...113234a_lg.jpg

BigJJ 01-08-2013 05:45 PM

Thank you Rhys.

The fact that the Okkonen Mathewson photo above may be a stock photo means that Mathewson wore a dark hat and dark socks some point before - either 1900 or early 1901.

Our popular uniform resources need updating to reflect pictures we have of Giants playing with dark hats and socks in 1900, 1901, and perhaps 1902 at home as an alternate home. Where is the Net 54 research intern, Leon? (We should really do this)

I have a feeling the Bucknell Polo Grounds photo is from spring 1901 or spring 1902, before the opening, northern spring training. I believe the hat Mathewson is wearing is a Giants hat. the fact that the hat is being worn in a practice, or practice game, in northern spring training may explain wearing an away cap, if it is indeed an away cap.

and the picture being from before the season in 1901 would explain the ads not matching up during the 1901 season. otherwise I am 100% certain it is 1900 or 1902. unless it is a special Bucknell visit to the Polo Grounds in 1899, I do not have the ads for 1899 either -but we have no evidence of such a 99 visit occuring.

The tunnel pictured behind Mathewson is replaced with seats, in addition to other structural changes in stadium configuration, after the 1903 season, see Graig's earlier posting. and the ads do not match up in 1903 at the beginning or end of the season, and do not match up during 1901. will continue to keep an eye out for ads from 99-02.

I received the photo today. Hard to let go. it is so clear. and I love that Im Ready signal - iconic of a quiet leader.

My family were Giants fans then, they may have been there watching, on that vast muddy grass field with the horses forming the out of play line in the outfield.

jacksons 01-08-2013 06:37 PM

According to Baseball Library:

Jun 23, 1909 - At the Polo Grounds‚ Christy Mathewson wins a doubleheader against Boston. Matty relieves Marquard in the opener with the score tied 4-4 in the 9th. After shutting down Boston‚ the Giants score a run for the 5-4 win. Matty then coasts in the nitecap to an 11-1 win. Mathewson leaves after two innings with a 4-1 lead‚ and Doc Crandall operates the rest of the way‚ The official scorer awards the game to Christy‚

Jun 22, 1909 - Christy Mathewson pitches 4 innings for the Bucknell alumni against the varsity‚ as the undergrads win‚ 13-12. Matty also plays 3B and chips in with 3 hits.

The back of the photo has a 1909 date.

My guess now is that this photo is from that alumni game June 22, which since there was a double header at the Polo Grounds June 23, had to have been played at the very same ballpark for timing purposes. How could the Giants have played a doubleheader on June 23 at the Polo Grounds, having been all the way in Lewisburg, PA (3 hours by car today) just the day before?

I know Matty looks young in that photo, but it seems to explain alot, including the older, faded B sweater...isn't it at all possible that he's just wearing a Bucknell away uniform representing the Alumni (possibly his own), and the varsity team is wearing the home unis?

May not explain why he's wearing a sweater in June though.

BigJJ 01-08-2013 06:57 PM

Gerry,
The stadium pictured is pre-1904 Polo Grounds.
Not 1909 Polo Grounds.
See the tunnel out of the field, behind Mathewson. That tunnel was filled in with seating between the 1903 and 1904 seasons. along with more seating along the field.
The Polo Grounds, as pictured behind Mathewson, did not exist after the 1903 season.

jacksons 01-08-2013 07:12 PM

Duh - good points, all. Would've helped if I'd read all the prior research from everyone.

My bad.

Shoeless Moe 01-08-2013 07:15 PM

Same photos but not this exact one...
 
sold twice over the years at Legendary, but their descriptions doesn't add much more:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=13683

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=21272

I have not searched REA or other auction houses. Might be worth a shot if u have the time.

gnaz01 01-08-2013 07:16 PM

Great info, folks! I was the underbidder in that Legendary one and would have gladly paid the $2000 but I'm getting old and fell asleep :mad:

BigJJ 01-08-2013 07:18 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Heres a photo of the 1905 Polo Grounds (containing the post-1903 revamp with filled in seating, same as the 1904 Polo Grounds) and, the huge in comparison, and again reconfigured, 1909 Polo Grounds. J


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