Has anyone seen CC "autographs" for sale in other venues?
 

I was just looking at the ridiculous baseballs in the Coaches Corner thread that was recently bumped up, and it got me thinking. That auction house has been pumping out "autographs" for years and years now. Baseballs "autographed" by guys like Martin Dihigo and Ross Youngs, which would sell for five and quite possibly six figures if authentic, sell for 50-100 bucks. Over and over and over. It also seems to me that the quality of these "autographs" has gone down over the years, as they used to have items that might actually fool a few people but now seem to only auction items that are so obviously fake and signed a few hours before being posted for sale.

So, I've started wondering if something else is happening here. Might these guys be laundering money? I guess that, if they were, the items might sell for even more than they do, but it just seems to me that there has to be a dwindling market for this stuff. I just don't think that there are that many people in the market for a Martin Dihigo autographed baseball, but Martin Dihigo "autographed" baseballs have sold in every single CC monthly auction over the last five years (sometimes multiple in an auction). Who is buying them? And what are they doing with them?

To that end, I want to ask for stories that people here might have about seeing these things for sale in other venues. I have regular ebay searches for most of the harder-to-find HOF autographs, and these things very rarely pop up on ebay at all (usually get removed when they do - even ebay, who has been dropping the ball lately on forgeries, knows a ridiculously bad item when they encounter it). Honestly, I would think that more people who bought these would be trying to flip them. Likewise, anyone who has bought these "autographed" items and tried to flip them would have gotten burned, regardless of whether they purchased the item from CC out of naivety or out of intention to scam. I think that these have to be hard to flip, and in either case (naivety or scam), it just seems like there wouldn't be a lot of repeat business from buyers of junk who couldn't move that junk. Maybe there are people sitting on these items, displaying them proudly or hoping to cash out in the future, but I doubt that there are so many as to explain all of the sales from the last 20+ years.

So, I want to ask about stories, sightings of these "autographed" items for sale in venues other than CC itself. I can say that about ten years ago I saw a Charles Lindbergh and Amelia Earhart cut "autograph" (with ACE cert - whatever happened to those?) for sale at a local flea market, and I did a search and found the thing had sold a few months before at CC. However, as a collector of HOF autographs, I just don't see these things for sale anywhere but CC. I'd like to hear stories of others if any of you have them.

I'm really starting to think that there's something else happening here, that these items just change hands among a small group of people, all of whom are fully aware that there needs to be quotes around the word "autographed." They are simply moving money around on paper and have found a way to do it. Anything is possible, I guess.

They are at Casino Gift shops, Charity Events, Silent Auctions on Cruise Ships and obscure local auctions the world over.

Have you seen them in these settings? So few people know who Ross Youngs or Martin Dihigo are; it would surprise me to see those names at a charity auction.

And Estate Sales.

Dave is correct. Anything those crums sell on their site, I have also seen at Charity Events that are posted online.

An acquaintance of mine thinks he is sitting on a gold mine with this stuff. He has kids that are my kids age and his daughter played on a team with mine. He told me about this collection with all these signed baseballs and invited me over. CC specials every last one of them. He probably thought he found some little corner.of the internet that noone else knew about and had struck it rich.

He was really proud of this stuff and I didn't have the heart to tell him the truth. I didn't know him very well and had no idea how he would react. He wanted me to spend a lot of time looking but all I wanted to do was to get out of there. I don't have much of a poker face.

Tom C

duplicate

My website and internet ads gets frequent hits and I get offers on a daily basis.
I would guestimate that half a dozen times at least I have been offered, by individual sellers, crap from CC.

Its so mind boggling that these crooks have been able to operate this auction site for 20 plus years and absolutely nothing has been done to stop them. Even Operation Bullpen back in the late 90's didn't shut these scumbags down. Ever collector knows these guys are selling fake stuff and has been posted on sites
like these and the uneducated collector buys it and thinks they good a good deal on a piece of garbage. To me it's all about how there fake certs are worded that gets them around being held responsible and the same with all the authenticators with the wording like "In Our Opinion" or words to that effect. I know this has been repeated many times on here about CC and guys trying to get the FBI involved but it's like beating a dead horse and they either don't think it's worth the time or for what ever reason CC continues to rip customers off. I always see the Feds busting other crooks on selling fake stuff on Sports Collectors Daily website and some of the bigger ones like Mastro and his buddies but CC goes on and on. Can't figure it out. Even though the crap stuff doesn't sell for much in there auctions it's still enough for the 2 guys running the show to make a living cause they continue to be around and not sitting in jail.

I spoke with a dealer at a small local mall show in Eastern PA about a year ago. He had gone to a few "live" auctions at roaches corner (I guess that was a thing at one point). He had gotten to know one of them pretty well and he started to ask them about some of the autographs. He said the guy at roaches would tell him which lots to stay away from.

Disgusting.

Tom C

That is enough to get someone nailed. He is admitting fakes are in the auction

No, that is hearsay. People on this board need to get a clue about what is needed to charge and convict someone of a crime like this. It gets tiring when people continue to bang the drum, but dont understand proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Trust me, there is no other person out there more of a hanging judge than me but I understand what it takes. Because we say so is not what it takes.

With that being said, I admit I find it very difficult to understand why CC is still in business with many other forgery cases out there. I have to believe the district where CC is located has zero interest in pursuing.

All of them?

Very true. I think this is directly connected to the notion that an autograph "is either authentic, or it's not," a phrase I've seen here often. Sure, the statement is true, but it's also irrelevant because authenticity is impossible to prove. In previous threads about CC, posters here have drawn comparisons to narcotics and things like that, but it's pretty easy to prove that a substance like cocaine is in fact the substance it is being called. And that is just the item itself, before we get into intent and all that. There is little plausible deniability for someone holding a kilo of heroin in their trunk. But eBay (and CC) can have forgeries on their website, and it ain't their fault because how can they or anyone else know? Whose opinions should the law trust?

My brother is a former DA, and in talking to him I can see why nobody wants to go after these guys. And as a side note, I think that CC learned a lot from Operation Bullpen and the mistakes that those crooks made.

Man, all kinds of conspiracy theories come into my head in regards to "Coach's Corner".

#1. It's a money laundering business. Who's going to report you to the cops when all of your customers are in cahoots with you?

#2. They're informants. Government gives them free reign as long as they give up one of their conspirators/consignors every once in awhile.

It is kind of odd, according to that article with Epperson and the charities, that they have been banned from Ebay, they have an "F" from the BBB, but there is no evidence of a single government inquiry into their business.

Answers:
1- certainly a possibility.
2- certainly a possibility but to the best of my knowledge, gleaned from TV and movies :), don't these guys usually trade up when informing?

There has been a government inquiry into CC. It started with a Federal attorney in their area and then to the US Postal Service. The attorney had prosecuted another case in forged autographs. He was contacted and through the efforts of another 54 member a great deal of evidence was turned over to the Postal Authorities. For unknown reasons the investigation ended without any prosecution.

Yeah, Whitey Bulger comes to mind. As long as they don't commit murder, they'll be fine. :rolleyes: