Two thoughts:

1) Has anyone contacted law enforcement yet?

2) Does anyone actually think any of these signed T206s are real? Having a personal financial stake in them being real does not make them so.

Time to get a prosecutor involved and put some pressure on the crooks.

SAME, Pat has the eye....must be from scouring the web for all those plate scratches.

GREAT WORK PAT!

Turd Ferguson...

I have given out the info I have to Pat R and other parties to help in this endeavor. I just don't think making the info public at this moment is the right thing to do. But the info is disseminating nicely. I have asked each party to keep it to themselves for now. Thanks to all members who are helping with this.

And to answer Jeff Ls questions, Law enforcement has been notified by myself and at least one major AH.

And on the other question, I think at least a few of the authenticated autos have to be good, right? Y'all know the old blind squirrel anecdote.

Might want to make that video...

I was looking at some of those Marquard's. So happy I got cold feet.

Thanks for this. I was already going to send mine back to REA, but this means whatever lingering doubt I had can be cast aside.

True. Maybe the next wave of TPG autos will have a QR code that leads you to the video proof of the signing, :D

Powell,

As you know, the Speaker was mine. I know it was owned by a collector here in Oklahoma prior to me purchasing it from Goodwin Auctions. I saw a scan of it on sportscollectors.net around 2008, so I know it’s history at least that far. I don’t personally know the prior owner, but Robert Taylor is a fellow collector here in Oklahoma and he knows him. I believe Robert told me that the prior owner has purchased it over 30 years ago. I can’t speak for the others, but the Speaker definitely existed well before this forger or forgery ring went to work.

Also, I think you were the buyer of the Frank Baker that was proven to be fake. I contacted Brian at REA and approved him withholding the purchase price from my consignment check. He’s a stand up guy and he informed me that he had already refunded the buyer. He’s also refunding me what I paid for the card through REA back in 2015. I’m really impressed with how REA has handled the situation.

Jason

I have not heard from hunt auctions, they are aware, and hoping they know the consignor of the group of t206s. It looks like a majority were purchased by f***f and tried to pass jsa and sgc before heading to clean sweep and hunt.

T206
 

Im so glad I don't collect autograph's of any kind !

In addition to Jason's comments on Speaker above, I can tell you that the following 4 cards in your collection originated from the Pittsburgh Find:

Marquard Portrait (one of 2)
Livingston (only 1)
Both of your McBrides (2 of 6)

Hope this helps. Did you acquire any of the others after October 1, 2015?

Doh....

Manny, thanks for the links in page 1. Something that just occurred to me was that most of these have SGC flips. At first I saw a lot of red and assumed PSA but that's not the case. Who certified these for SGC?

How many of these were JSA certified? Hasn't JSA partnered with a lot of the main TPGs (SGC, PSA and Beckett)? Does he still have an affiliation with all of them?

Very valuable thread. I love how the examples have practically irrefutable proof of forgery.

Good work to those involved in sleuthing this out.

Mike

T206 scandal
 

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ograph-scheme/

This article may be related somehow to the same group that was arrested & is possibly producing these fake T206's come from same town...The buyer of our T206 baker(unsigned), later "signed" and authenticated and sold in REA came from a small town of pop 9000 in Ohio. I know the e bay item # seen in worthpoint and posted by Pat exactly matches our reply to feedback research which also contains same e bay id #, and also shows his handle. I dont have his name, nor do I have his original hard copy invoice...but I do know from the research we conducted that his history from his ID(prior to being blocked) referred to location: Girard, Ohio.

The noose is closing.

Is that Marino related to the Marino's from Operation Bullpen infamy?

Once again, great detective work. This is such a sad story but is a great read - I keep checking back and hoping an update on identification of the forger. I took a quick peek at the summary of this thread on page one and noted that the TPAs for the ones identified are mostly SGC and JSA but the highest dollar one is the PSA/DNA Baker.

For my own interest, I made a quick list for TPA tracking...

# Signature Certification
1 Fred Parent SGC Authentic & JSA
2 Billy Sullivan SGC Authentic & JSA
3 Bob Rhoades SGC Authentic
4 Paddy Livingston SGC Authentic
5 Frank Baker PSA/DNA
6 Elmer Flick SGC Authentic
7 Heinie Zimmerman SGC Authentic
8 Wid Conroy SGC Authentic
9 Larry Doyle SGC Authentic
10 Jap Barbeau SGC Authentic
11 Red Murray SGC Authentic
12 Eddie Cicotte SGC Authentic
13 Nap Rucker SGC Authentic & JSA
14 Jesse Tannehill
15 Rube Marquard JSA

The Baker was originally sold with a JSA cert and later got slabbed by PSA. In fact, the vast majority of these cards started with JSA I believe. You've got to look up the auctionhouse listings to find that out.

Well, if this is the same family or group of conspirators, then it might be very easy to get the law enforcement back involved as this may be a parole violation. Therefore the sentences for further offenses would be magnified.

I think the Marinos (Greg et al.) were based in Southern California?

Yes they were.

I will be curious as to when we see the first cards that are not T206 hit the post with confirmed before and after. There is no way the scope of this is as limited as T206’s.

Something tells me this is going to just explode in the next several days.

Not that it hasn’t in the last several!

Thanks to everyone involved.


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While this goes to show the flaws in their opinion, this is actually a bit comforting (where really no comfort can come from this thread).

I get a few autos every year at the MAB show in Cooperstown. You go through the hotel, come out the back, then go to the front of the building again to get a cert from JSA. They didn’t watch the item get signed, they don’t ask for proof of the signing ticket, and they only look at the item to verify the signer and inscription. This process takes less than a minute to complete and is an excercise in book keeping rather than authentication. Whose to say that a guy signing at that show has a high price (Randy Johnson) and someone walks up with 5 decent fakes. Those are all most likely getting stickers and a cert card.

When I got my Montana Jersey signed at Shriners I brought it to PSA. They did bring the jersey out back for about 5 minutes and then it came out with a cert. I didn’t watch what they did but the process was super quick.

Point being as an autograph collector these types of things are concerning and essentially certs can be handed out on items that don’t even go through a process. Even if these processes are flawed (as we see they are).

Exact same thing
 

[QUOTE=Marchillo;1831942]While this goes to show the flaws in their opinion, this is actually a bit comforting (where really no comfort can come from this thread).

I get a few autos every year at the MAB show in Cooperstown. You go through the hotel, come out the back, then go to the front of the building again to get a cert from JSA. They didn’t watch the item get signed, they don’t ask for proof of the signing ticket, and they only look at the item to verify the signer and inscription. This process takes less than a minute to complete and is an excercise in book keeping rather than authentication. Whose to say that a guy signing at that show has a high price (Randy Johnson) and someone walks up with 5 decent fakes. Those are all most likely getting stickers and a cert card.



I saw this exsct same thing at the exact same show in 2012 (so it’s been the process there for years) and thought the exact same thing. I decided on that day that I would only collect autographs that I received in person. I am not an autograph collector (just get a few players I wanted), so I do not study the autographs enough to provide me with the knowledge to identify fakes versus real. And I’ve

But, at this point, it appears there are a plethora of fakes “authenticated” and, I assume, these fakes are now used as exemplars. I just don’t know how anyone knows what’s real or fake at this point (obviously the “authenticators” don’t) unless you see player sign it with your eyes or have iron clad provenance. I feel like operation bullpen fell on deaf ears and the “romanticism” of owning a signed pre-war card blinded peoples rationale thought!

In reference to a few people’s comments about this not being isolated to T206s, I completely agree; however, I think it will be more difficult to pinpoint the before and after of these other series. When I go to card shows, dealers have binders of low grade common 1933 Goudey cards (perfect for this forgery scam); so I think it is less likely cards from other series will have a fingerprint copy on internet.

Lastly, I feel horrible for everyone that got burned in this scam and hope that they receive retribution (REA response speaks volumes to me on why many consider them an industry leader) and incredible work by Manny in trusting his gut when he smelled a rat!!!

@ndy k3nn3dy

Presumably, hopefully, REA will be made whole by the TPA who mistakenly blessed the cards. I'm a little disappointed but of course not surprised that we've heard nothing from any of the other auction houses who sold the fake cards.

As for autographs, other than on checks or official documents I'd stay away. Problem is that we all tend to lose our heads when confronted with something we really want based on a deep-seated childhood desire. A desire that tends to cause us to ignore simple common sense. Just take a look at the BST with some sellers willing to concoct the most hilarious bullshit stories to defraud board members. If it seems ridiculous it is ridiculous. If someone claims a high graded card in some obscure holder has never been sent into PSA or SGC, he's lying. If someone is selling a seemingly pristine raw card at a high price, presume it's trimmed or altered and been rejected by PSA or SGC. If you presume the worst you'll be right 99% of the time. Sad but true.

This times a million.

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

+1

I think the way the hobby has evolved, too much faith has been put on what the label says. A grade, or a blessing of authenticity, is only an opinion. And because TPGs need to process material as quickly as possible to increase profits, many of the opinions are flawed and inaccurate.

But how many collectors actually assess that? If the label says it's a 9, it's taken by most as a guarantee. Look at what 9's and 10's sell for, and you know that buyers have total confidence in that label. Just the idea that all these fake signatures found their way into slabs should be a wake up call that the system is deeply flawed.

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

Yup. The TPG gives the stamp of approval and allows people to exhale. Even when the TPG - like Spence - is shown to be a clown year after year. Collectors are so easily defrauded. As we see on the BST even morons can easily steal.

Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures. Too bad we can’t just soak the added ink off the cards to get them back to prior condition as that would be “Altering” them. Although that seems a bit backwards to me.

This.

There is, but if it's your card, are you willing to have them take a piece of the signature off the card to run it through a mass spectrometer? I'm not sure there is a non-invasive way to test it.

Not sure we're losing that many great cards; these are mostly beaters that are being forged.

This is where I was at first, but there are still a finite number of these cards. It’s a decently big finite number but still sucks to see them destroyed

And a big +1 to Jeff’s comments about the false sense of security with the slabs and how we lose our minds when we find something we want really bad.

How many did they try and fail?

Boy, I thought everyone who collects sports stuff, especially autographs would have read "Operation Bullpen". That book is the "Scared Straight" book for anyone who ever considered collecting an autograph. This current wave of fraud would not surprise anyone who ever read that book.

Secondly, I wonder if law enforcement doesn't care because of the nature of the hobby. Rich guys paying thousands of dollars for autographs of people that 99% of the public never even heard of. Who wants to spend precious resources defending these guys? If they can afford to spend the money, then they can afford to deal with the risk. Seems like it's very important that this hobby police itself. So my sincere thanks to all who have exposed this.

That's what I thought. Also what I think about trimming, etc.

+1


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Yep. As the great quotation goes, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[QUOTE=egbeachley;1831982]Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures.

I totally agree and that's one of the reasons I collect the Magee cards, I feel as if many have been lost to card doctors trying to change the Magee to Magie. Relative to the autograph forging I'm sorry to say I believe this is just scratching the surface as many have already mentioned. Personally, I wouldn't trust any autograph nor would I collect any card that had been altered in anyway. I would guess that many backstamp cards have been "created" recently though they don't carry anywhere near the premium that the t206 auto cards do.

It's all a sad commentary on the state of some aspects of the hobby. I would think this has ruined the fun of things for many of us as those holding certified t206 auto's are questioning the validity of their signed cards. Not knowing is often worse than knowing. I feel for you. Hope the perpetrators get more than what they deserve.

They do for comics. Signature series I believe. Gets a special golden flip.

I think the main issue with certifying cards at shows of the show signers is mainly of logistics. Since some shows have 5-10 signers at a time, they'd have to have at least that many witnesses.

Another example of why I feel that autograph collecting has become both the best and worst hobby.

There are non- invasive spectrograph machines. Mostly used for metals. They will give an accurate reading of the elements in the ink, but then you need to know what inks were made of in the past and what they're made of now. Some ink formulas have probably remained unchanged since the 70's.


Those machines are slowly becoming used for stamps, and a few of the things that everyone "knew" have been proven wrong. Like the brown inks for the 1847 stamps were "known" to be pigmented with rust. Except the recent spectrograph showed exactly 0% iron.....

Apologies if these two have already been discussed that sold in Hunt's October monthly auction. While the Barbeau is SGC, the McBride is a PSA example.

I would have provided a direct link but we all know Hunt's website is horrendous and I cant even figure out how to search their completed monthly auctions.

Here's how a real TPG handles a nice item that's got a problem.


http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=25804


Yes, that's mine. As far as I know it's the first of that foreign entry that's been given a certificate. I have a couple others, and it's pretty rare so the issues don't bother me much.

Yep, already discussed
 

See post 194 showing the before and after photos of the forged Barbeau card. The McBride is an exact match to one of the six McBride cards from The Great Pittsburg find.

So the other thing that crossed my mind is what is going to be done with these known fraudulent signed T206s. I look at those and they are worthless and think I’d want the card shredded to get it out of the hobby once and for all. I also realize I didn’t drop thousands of dollars on these cards so that’s a lot easier for me to say than for someone who did to do. Thoughts? I still think these cards should be destroyed fwiw.


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I would think for now they have to be retained as possible evidence.