|
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erDRUMx50b.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...HINDUbk37x.jpg
Most T205 collectors consider the HINDU's tougher than the DRUM's. To date, there are 25 subjects confirmed with DRUM backs. While there are 19 subjects confirmed with HINDU backs. DRUM and HINDU checklists will follow. And, this I can state with certainty: T205 DRUM and HINDU cards are mutually exclusive. How many more T205's yet to be found with HINDU backs is not easily discernable, given the existing back patterns associated with T205 HINDU's. However, I have a theory regarding the predictability of DRUM cards in the T205 set. Theory...... the A=B=C=D equation http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...genABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Lobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ggins25bxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rDRUMx25bx.jpg Apparently, American Lithographic printed American Beauty (Black)...Broad Leaf...Cycle...Drum backs simultaneously on certain T205 subjects. Research suggests, as many as 32 subjects were possibly printed with DRUM backs in the T205 set. The key factor in this A=B=C=D equation is the Black American Beauty back. Conversely, a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back will NOT be found with a DRUM back. Here's my original list of 11 predictions Since I proposed these predictions, 4 of them have surfaced with DRUM backs (marked confirmed on list). So, I'm 4 for 4 (Batting 1.000). Therefore, I'm feeling very confident that my theory is valid. The remaining 7 guys have been confirmed with the A=B=C pattern. So, I expect these 7 subjects eventually will be discovered with the DRUM back (completing their A=B=C=D connection). 1......Bates.........confirmed 2......Becker 3......Bergen.......confirmed 4......Evans 5......Herzog 6......Huggins 7......Leach.........confirmed 8......Lobert 9......Paskert......confirmed 10....Phelps 11....Wheat Having said all that, the intent of this thread is twofold....to inform....and to encourage more worthwhile T205 discussions. Especially, regarding the tougher front / back combinations (i.e: HINDU's....AMERICAN BEAUTY....BROAD LEAF....CYCLE....DRUM's, etc.). So, feel free to post your T205's of any variety.....and/or, to chime in with some interesting stories regarding your T205 set or cards. TED Z . |
Ted the Cycles don't follow the pattern like they do on 206's. I also have a list of Hindu confirmed/possibles I can post of your interested. I have some where a list of the same for Drums but having issues with my desktop where I believe it is.
|
T205 HINDU checklist
List of the 19 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......
New York Giants ------------------- Leon Ames Josh Devore W. R. Dickson Chicago Cubs ---------------- John Kling John Pfeister Cincinnatti Reds ------------------- Robert Bescher Richard Egan Harry Gaspar Detroit Tigers ---------------- George Simmons Oscar Stanage Philadelphia Phillies ----------------------- Fred Jacklitsch Sherwood Magee Washington Senators ------------------------- Walter Johnson GeorgeMcBride Boston Red Sox ------------------- Clyde Engle Boston Rustlers ------------------ Bayard Sharpe Brooklyn Superbas ---------------------- Edgar Lennox Pittsburg Pirates -------------------- Albert Leifield St Louis Browns ------------------- William Bailey TED Z . |
Hi Andrew
Quote:
I realize that the patterns of the T205 CYCLE's are different than they are with the T206 cards. But, when the CYCLE's are in partners with the black American Beauty and the Broad Leaf cards for a given T205 subject, then a Drum will inevitably follow. And, by all means, please list all of the Drum and Hindu confirmed/possibles you have. Thanks, ole buddy TED Z . |
Love all the recent t205 threads! If anyone had a hindu or drum they are looking to sell i could be interested
|
I have a T205 Jake Stahl (Boston Amer) with a Hindu back.
Steve |
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
Steve
Your T205 Jake Stahl is a new HINDU card. This is the 20th confirmed HINDU. When you can, please post front & back scans of it. Thanks for this important input, TED Z . |
Ted is spot on in his evaluation...the matrix can be further seen at t205resource.com
Drum used to be tougher than Hindu but I suspect the print runs were probably similar. There was a couple of "large" Drum finds (around 20 cards total) a few years back that allowed much of those into the hobby. I can tell you that there were at least three press runs for Hindu as I have have seen three different Hindu Ames sell during my time. As for Drum, I have only confirmed duplicates of Brown and Quinn...still waiting to confirm a triplicate of those two. Joshua |
T205 DRUM checklist
Team affiliation of the 25 subjects currently confirmed with DRUM backs......
New York Yankees ---------------------- James Austin Harold Chase (border on shirt) Jack Knight John Quinn Harry Wolter Philadelphia Phillies ----------------------- John Bates Patrick Moran George Paskert Chicago White Sox ---------------------- Russell Blackburne Frederick Olmstead Fred Payne Boston Rustlers ------------------- George Graham (blue signature) David Shean Brooklyn Superbas ---------------------- George Bell William Bergen Chicago Cubs ----------------- Mordecai Brown Lewis Richie Cincinnati Reds ------------------ Thomas Downey Richard Hoblitzell New York Giants -------------------- Albert Bridwell A. Latham Philadelphia A's ------------------ Briscoe Lord Pittsburg Pirates ------------------- Thomas Leach St Louis Browns ------------------- George Stone St Louis Cardinals --------------------- Frank Corridon TED Z |
Quote:
|
Loving this thread!
|
Joshua
Quote:
Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. Regarding the relatively recent two finds of T205 Drum's, that I think you are alluding to. Ron Oser and I were set-up at adjacent booths at a Philly Show when Ron discovered those cards on his trips to St. Louis. Ron and I were like two kids sorting thru all these T205 (and T206) Drum cards (which altogether totaled approx. 70 Drum cards)......what a "blast". TED Z . |
Ted I remember sitting at the Hilton bar with you in 2010 and talking t205's and this back pattern link and also some other card back list and connections. Hope we can repeat that again this summer. Here is the Hindu list I made about 2 yrs back. I deleted it off the board along with some of my other research. Anyways here's what I have:
I have been researching this set for what seems yrs now. I was leaning towards a theory about the Hindus a while back but needed a few more back confirmations to make the connection factual. Hindus were printed at the 649 Fact, as well as the Hassan 649 back. After a lot of research I noticed that NO Hindu players were found with Hassan Backs even though they were printed in the same factory as each other. I then realized there was another neat thing that all Hindus have the SC black backs only. So if it has a Hassan back then there will be NO Hindu or SC Black back from either factory. None of the AB, BL, Cycle, Drum, or Pied 42 cards can be found with the SC black back from either factory either, but can have SC red fact 25. These may have not been printed, but they meet all the criteria to be a Hindu print, and there is a list of Confirmed backs below. Also you will see a few Variations listed. I believe the 2 variations listed are the correct card for the back to fall on. This is due the card listed as being the primary card containing the SC Blacks from both factories and the other variation being a type of misprint or correction later on. Possible Abbaticchio Archer Ball Birmingham Bransfield Ciotte Daubert Doughtery-Red Sox Emblem Duffy Ford Black Cap Fromme Goode Gray-No Stats Griffith Groom Hoffman Hummel Jennings Killian LaPorte Lang Livingston Lord Lush Maddox McElveen McIntyre McLean Mitchell Moriarity Mullin Rucker Schmidt Scott Stahl Thomas Young Confirmed Ames Bailey Bescher Devore Dickson Egan Engle Gaspar Jacklitsch Johnson Kling Leifield-A on Front Lennox Magee McBride Pfiester Sharpe Simmons Stanage I do hope this will help out in some way and hope to cross off a few in the future to the confirmed list. I would be happy to hear any questions or comments. |
Hey Andrew
Quote:
into the night. I think we finally ended talking about our Daughters....your Kadence and Melody, and my Zoe and Debra. The Good Lord willing, we can continue our conversation this forthcoming Summer. Thanks for posting all this good stuff regarding T205 HINDU's. I will certainly give it some serious thought. Incidentally, on your possible list is Stahl, and yesterday Steve D (post #6) identified Stahl with a HINDU back. TED Z . |
T205 Stahl Hindu back:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8...ps3bbedf13.jpghttp://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h8...ps28dc52c9.jpg Steve |
Stahl Hindu back:
Very cool! |
That is one great card
|
Thanks Steve......updated HINDU list
List of the 22 subjects currently confirmed with HINDU backs (with respect to their Team affiliation)......
New York Giants ------------------- Leon Ames Josh Devore W. R. Dickson Cincinnatti Reds ------------------- Robert Bescher Richard Egan Harry Gaspar Chicago Cubs ---------------- John Kling John Pfeister Detroit Tigers ---------------- George Simmons Oscar Stanage Philadelphia Phillies ----------------------- Fred Jacklitsch Sherwood Magee Washington Senators ------------------------- Walter Johnson GeorgeMcBride Boston Red Sox ------------------- Eddie Cicotte Clyde Engle Jacob Stahl Boston Rustlers ------------------ Bayard Sharpe Brooklyn Superbas ---------------------- Edgar Lennox Chicago White Sox -------------------- Hugh Duffy Pittsburg Pirates -------------------- Albert Leifield St Louis Browns ------------------- William Bailey TED Z . |
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
So, you have completed a 208-card set. Your T205 challenge is over with. Or, is it ? No, it's not....the "hunt" must continue, as you become obsessed
with the various T205 backs. This occurred to me with the T206's many years ago, when I realized a pattern of backs that I refer to as the A-B-C-D connection. Check out this link for more info on this sub-set. And, for example, here is my A-B-C-D "quadruplicate" sub-set of my favorite T206 Minor Leaguer....Frank Delahanty http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ntyABCDx50.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tyABCDx50b.jpg Recently, I started similar A-B-C-D sub-sets for these four T205 guys. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...pattern25x.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...attern25bx.jpg I currently have the AB's for these guys....and, the additional backs shown here. Any help in acquiring the remaining Broad Leaf, Cycle. and Drum backs to complete the A-B-C-D sub-sets of these 4 subjects is greatly appreciated. Bergen & Wolter are confirmed with Drum. Huggins & Lobert have yet to be found with the Drum back. However, I firmly believe that they will be. Hey guys......this is just a alternative sport in the fun of collecting Tobacco cards that I thought may interest some of you. TED Z . |
Hey Ted
Small world. That Wolter Drum used to be my type for the mfg for many years. Nice research and thanks for sharing!! I have shown these so often folks will think they are commoners....:o http://luckeycards.com/pt205cobbbrownjohnson3x.jpg |
Hey Leon
That's pretty cool.....it is a small world.
So, maybe your Johnson Hindu will soon be mine :) TED Z . |
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
Some Net54 collectors of T205 cards have in the past complained that there are too many threads on T206's
and very few threads regarding T205 cards. Well, I started this thread in order to "gin up" some interesting discussions on these cards. Apparently, there does not seem to be any interest in my suggested "Quadruplicate" sub-sets. So let's switch over to posting T205 printing errors. Perhaps, that may keep this thread active. I'll start with my Eddie Collins card with a mis-printed back. What is quite interesting about this particular card is that it reveals to us that this Collins card was Double- Printed (horizontally) on its sheet. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...smiscut50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...insWCbk50x.jpg OK guys.....how's about showing and/or telling us of your T205 anomalies.....or anything T205. TED Z . |
1 Attachment(s)
1 - Archer - Hard to tell from the bad scan, but hes got 4 eyes
2 - Tannehill - has a sunburn 3 - Bailey - pink baseline 4 - Ball - missing red ink Attachment 169639 |
1 Attachment(s)
Paddy and Howie are missing gold at the top. Wish I could help with the ABCD stuff!
|
1 Attachment(s)
That LaPorte is great Dennis.
|
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
Steve and Andrew
Thanks for posting your T205's.....very interesting. Quote:
I haven't seen "missing gold" T205's in ages. Thanks for posting your's. The ABCD stuff.... Dennis, I think I'm probably the only dude on this forum that finds such esoteric back combinations interesting. I'm picking up a CYCLE back for this Lobert A-B-C-D combo. And, although the DRUM version of Lobert is unknown, I'm certain it will appear. I'm happy that I have the BROAD LEAF back, because in my opinion the BROAD LEAF (black) backs are as scarce as the DRUM backs. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rtABxBLx50.jpg ................http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tABxBLx50b.jpg TED Z . |
Drum backs
1 Attachment(s)
Austin in a PSA 3
|
Latham
1 Attachment(s)
Latham..With a drum
|
Pfeister
1 Attachment(s)
Hindu
|
Engle
1 Attachment(s)
Hindu
|
AddieJoss
Hi Cory
Great cards....thanks for posting your DRUM's and HINDU's. TED Z . |
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
Here's another mis-print, this one tells us that John Titus and Tony Smith were adjacent cards on this printed sheet.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...usSmith50x.jpg TED Z . |
T205 Minor Leaguers
Knowledgeable T205 collectors believe that the T205 Minor Leaguers were printed late in 1911 (or 1912) based on the bios of 8 of these subjects. According to my T205 Exclusive 12 theory
there is a high probability that these 12 subjects were printed on a sheet of their own separate from the other 196 subjects in the T205 set. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tmerphecol.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...neecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erphecolBx.jpg However, the aesthetic design of these 12 cards is very similar to American Lithographic's (ALC) non-sports cards of 1911....such as the Military Series cards depicted here. T80 examples . . http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t80t205nee.jpg . . http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...noxuzitt80.jpg We have actual proof from an ALC ledger that the T80's were issued as early as Feb 1911. And, a T80 and a T206 were both inserted in Cigarette packs in that timeline. Furthermore, was the artwork for the Minor Leaguers created by the same artist that created the T80's early in 1911 ? But, for whatever reasons the Minor Leaguers were then shelved until very late in 1911, when these 12 guys were printed and issued. Personally, I favor the design of these Minor Leaguers over the design of the 196 - T205 Major Leaguers. TED Z . |
Since the t206 sheet threads have been so huge I was wondering when the 05s would get some love. I especially would want to know because of the nature of the sp's and how the sheets were put together. Thanks for all the work Ted!
|
It would be a great help if PSA would start showing love to the t205 set. They still just label them as Gold Border (same as t207 being listed only as 'brown background'). They don't indicate back advertisements not alone factory like they do with t206. That would really help. For this reason I wouldn't get any t205 or t206 graded with PSA anymore.
|
That handford card still bothers me, with the red background. Why is he the only one? Some responded cause of the team. Hes the inly jersey guy, could be. Where there supposed to be more jersey guys? Probably. Love the mystery as well as the beauty if the set.
|
T205 DRUM vs HINDU....or, other tough front/back combos....let's talk T205's
The following is a list of the Black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY subjects that I'm aware of in the T205 set.
I have 32 confirmed listed here....however, I have been informed that there are 33. Please check out this list and tell me who the 33rd guy is. James Austin John Bates Beals Becker George Bell William Bergen Russell Blackburne Albert Bridwell Mordecai Brown Harold Chase (border on shirt) Frank Corridon Thomas Downey Louis Evans George Graham (blue signature) Buck Herzog Richard Hoblitzell Miller Huggins Jack Knight A. Latham Thomas Leach John Lobert Briscoe Lord Patrick Moran Frederick Olmstead George Paskert Fred Payne Edward Phelps John Quinn Lewis Richie David Shean George Stone Zach Wheat Harry Wolter Thanks much, TED Z . |
Ted I have 32 on my list also. Not sure who said there are 33. I may be wrong though.
|
Interesting thread on a great, underrated set. Thanks for posting all the cards, guys.
|
Quote:
|
Hi Andy
I was told of a possible 33rd AB (black ink) card from an old T205 collector friend of mine.
Also, I had noticed that you had "33" noted in your signature, so I was wondering if there are 33 - T205's with this back. Andrew W. and Andy N. Thanks for confirming the 32 number. TED Z . |
Are there also a total of 32 total Broadleaf backs?
|
BROAD LEAF cards
The following 32 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF back.
Note that this list is exactly identical to the previously listed black ink AMERICAN BEAUTY backs (in Post #38). James Austin John Bates Beals Becker George Bell William Bergen Russell Blackburne Albert Bridwell Mordecai Brown Harold Chase (border on shirt) Frank Corridon Thomas Downey Louis Evans George Graham (blue signature) Buck Herzog Richard Hoblitzell Miller Huggins Jack Knight A. Latham Thomas Leach John Lobert Briscoe Lord Patrick Moran Frederick Olmstead George Paskert Fred Payne Edward Phelps John Quinn Lewis Richie David Shean George Stone Zach Wheat Harry Wolter TED Z . |
More T205 fun....playing the name-game....QUINN-tuplicate subset
You can call me a "nut", but here is another challenge. If you have achieved the aforementioned "quadruplicate" sub-set for a given T205 subject (Post 19), then extend it
to a "Quintuplicate" sub-set by adding a moderately tough SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #42) card to this group to achieve this 5-card series. All 32 subjects that are possible with DRUM backs will invariably be found with this red colored SWEET CAP back. --http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nnSCred25x.jpg -----------------------------------------------------------------------------http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nnCycle25x.jpg ---------------------------------------- http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nSCred25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...genABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Lobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nCycle25xb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rDRUMx25bx.jpg Of course, it goes without saying, the real challenge in this game is to find Jack Quinn's BROAD LEAF and DRUM cards. I first started collecting this pattern with my T206's. My favorite T206 image is the blue Chase; and, I have been searching for 34 years for the DRUM to complete this Quintuplucate sub-set. However, no DRUM card of the blue Chase has ever been confirmed. I'm beginning to wonder if this Hal Chase card was ever printed with a DRUM back. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...6DRUMx50bx.jpg TED Z . |
1 Attachment(s)
Just got out my miscut fronts and ghost today
Paskert ghost Stone MC front top w/AB back Gaspar/Gaspar Bescher top MC Street/Bresnahan mouth closed Richie vert MC Titus/Beck vert MC |
Since there are some errors showing up, here is what I have retained:
http://whitewhalecards.com/files/car...8215_front.jpghttp://whitewhalecards.com/files/car...b8215_rear.jpg http://whitewhalecards.com/files/car...07989_rear.jpghttp://whitewhalecards.com/files/car...7989_front.jpg |
The 32 cards previously mentioned... would they be considered as to have been printed more than the others in the set, or does their having been printed with so many different backs not effect production runs as they simply had smaller numbers with more backs?
|
Dennis
Typically, for any one of these 32 subjects, the total sum of their AB + BL + CY + DR backs is approx. 10 % of the total card count of a given subject.
Therefore, my answer to your question is that these 32 were not printed more than any of the other 176 subjects in the T205 set. ................... tough ..................................... rare ....................................... tough ...............................…. very rare http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...genABbk25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Lobert25bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ggins25bxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rDRUMx25bx.jpg TED Z |
Hey Steve
Quote:
Hanford should have been captioned with Montreal (instead of Jersey City). It's an error card, both in Team and in color. :) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tmerphecol.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...neecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erphecolBx.jpg TED Z . |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:51 PM. |