Mel....
 

exactly!! in all credit to this, at least the image of wagner was there.....but you are right...

who is to say "the restorer" did not enhance the wagner image????????????

???????

it is all what "the restorer" decided to write down on the invoice....what if he/she did more and forgot to invoice it??????????


point is, this card has gone too far and should not be considered authentic because the integrity of the card has been compromised .....too much has been done to it.....it has been basically "re created" with wagner parts:)

To me, whether or one would buy it is one issue (and a matter of personal taste-- and some people collect reprints), and whether or not it is an authentic/original card is another.

I would have no interest in owning the card and consider it a bit of a 'Frankenstein,' but am aware that's a matter of my sentiments and won't argue against those who would buy it. I may question their taste though ;)

Duly note that I like colorized old movies-- Laurel & Hardy, etc--, so am not a zealot.

Coins are restored or "conserved" to some extent, and it's even done by the grading companies. (Not real sure how I think about that.... )
https://news.coinupdate.com/testing-...ation-service/

Other stuff has been done for years, like filling in holes where the coin was drilled to make jewelery, or removing solder, etc. Pretty much any silver coin that looks silver has had tarnish removed.
All of which usually decrease the value except the tarnish removal, which can go either way.

Stamps are also restored. It's a bit controversial, the national collecting organization expects all restored stamps to be marked with indelible ink. At least one restorer won't do that unless it's requested. As usual, undescribed restoration is unacceptable. And even described restoration can affect value. The second item down here has a restoration and didn't sell for much compared to others.

http://stampauctionnetwork.com/y/y92368.cfm


For some items, conservation and/or restoration is appropriate. Especially deacidifying really bad paper that's in poor condition and will eventually destroy itself. Most strip cards would be good candidates for that.


I collect bicycles, and have "restored" some. Not total restorations as we see with cars, although that's also done.
Here are a couple examples. None of what was done can't be reversed with an hour or so of work.

1920's motorpacing bike. As found, apparently converted to a bike for getting around or for warmups after a pretty serious crash.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=25786

And after locating the right size front wheel, chainring, type of handlebars, and a few other parts.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=15693


Second, a bike used to win a gold medal in team pursuit at the Pan-Am games in 1983. As found.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=25787


And after locating or making a bunch of special parts that aren't available.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=25788

Obviously, neither is 100% original, but the pros swapped out parts for nearly every race. And neither was even close to original as found.
When I showed pictures of the 1983 bike to the guy who originally built it I told him I didn't do a good enough job on the front hub as it really wasn't all that close to what I'd seen in pictures. He told me not to worry, making a hub wasn't easy, and that there were probably only a handful of people who would know the hub wasn't quite right and that I would be the only one who cared. Also, that they had experimented with a number of hubs and other parts, and that at least one set looked nearly identical to what I'd made. :)

Restoration is always a bit tricky, how far to take things, and which things to change. With paper stuff at least to me it's more about preservation, cleaning, deacidifying (actually not needed for T206s)

I'd also prefer the un-restored card, but it's not for everyone.

steve
 

great job on the bikes! you even took the wrong parts and put the right ones on it:)

I don't have a problem with restoration as long as full disclosure happens. People can spend their money how they see fit. Large-scale restoration is expensive and requires a great deal of skill to do well -- I don't see it being done for cards that the average collector could ever afford.

IMHO the hobby has quite a few more serious problems that are not going away any time soon.

Lesser alteration is much more widespread than restoration and it's been going on for a long time and is only going to be more prevalent in the future.

What I think is even more insidious and potentially crippling to the hobby is the proliferation of high-quality reprints and counterfeits. They are being more skillfully produced all the time and even artificially aged when needed. The day is not far off when almost all cards worth $100 or more that are traded or sold on the market will require third-party authentication. Some people say we're already at that point now. For those that are willing to pay the higher cost of graded cards it's not an issue; for collectors just wanting decent raw vintage cards at a decent price it's going to be a rocky road.

As long as people are willing to pay insane prices for small pieces of cardboard (mass-produced so not comparable to most fine art in that respect) then there will be those willing to provide what appears to be real but isn't. It's a target rich environment for the grifters. The people that restore cards with disclosure are not that.

This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

China is busy cloning them

This may not be far from the truth, with the hobby becoming increasingly global and “investment” centered.


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That's the be-all and end-all bottom line, to me.

Hi Steve,

Larry

I agree that as long as there is full disclosure as to what was done to the card, to each his/her own as to the card's desirability and value. Collecting by its nature is subjective, and if someone gets pleasure out of owing such a card, what's wrong with that? That said, grading companies might want to consider making a fuller disclosure than simply referring to the card as "restored". As this thread amply demonstrates, restored has different meanings to different people. One remedy would be for the flip to show before and after images of the card, so the prospective purchaser would have more complete info as to what was done.

My biggest concern, which Dave's post well states, is the day is not far off (and may already be here) when reproductions will be so good that one will not be able to tell a counterfeit from an original. And I am not persuaded that grading companies will be able to tell either, at least not with their current methods. I believe in time provenance will matter more and more as to the value of a card, both as to whether the card has been altered and also as to whether the card is real.

I would consider this - to what degree is this a restored card. A little here, maybe little there, or a major complete 100% overhaul that bears absolutely positively no resemblance of the original? A filled pinhole, maybe ok, a corner press or soak also maybe ok, a tad of color added, ok. But I wouldn't touch this (knowing) with a 10 ft., er 100 ft. pole !

Where is the line drawn
 

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

Bob
 

+1
I can't agree more.....I'm just like you.....

if we accept this as collectors, its hard to draw the line.....

almost like "manufacturing rarity".........if you want that, buy new cards:)


vintage cards should not be tampered with by altering, once that is done, the card has no more integrity than the seller:)

by the way......
 

the flip should read

"FRANKEN - WAGNER" :D

I wouldn't buy one personally but as everything they did in the restoration is documented and there was no attempt to deceive collectors I have no problem with this.

How this hasn't yet led to a spin-off "I like my Wagners like my women" thread is quite beyond me.

Authentic and a little rough around the edges?

Thanks!


I'd planned on doing an actual restoration on the motorpacing bike, new paint, new chrome,... Way beyond my budget.

It has a bad dent in the back, so I knew it had been crashed. When I was rebuilding it, I had the fork out and thought it was plugged with dirt or maybe a wood dowel. Nope, it had cracked nearly all the way across, been plugged across the crack with a pressed in steel rod that was pinned in place. I really had to look for the pins. Beautiful repair, done whenever it was crashed, probably in the 1930's. I just couldn't restore it after finding that.


I generally don't call them restored, as I don't touch the original paint. I usually go with "reconstructed" since very few of the parts are original.


Now the really old hydraulic jack I did that was basically encased in a ball of dirt when I got it... yeah, that's restored. Amazingly, the original leather seals were still good.

That's an excellent question!


Magies can probably be identified by particular flaws on the front/back. I haven't done much with the scans I've saved off lately, but there were specific things that I was seeing only on Magies


So that's a bigger question. How far to go in restoring?

As a t206 collector myself I actually prefer when cards do not look "pristine" I love the way that wagner looked originally, Would never buy that after it was restored.

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

Nope.

Leon, that would be one helluva of a job of trimming--leaving only the bottom border! :) BUT, hypothetically, as you say, if that was to be done, great question how the hobby would regard the final outcome.

The Just So, as I recall, retained the original player image and inserted new borders cannibalized from another (actress subject) Just So.

Any opinions on this now that it sold for 420k? 2 years ago REA sold a SGC 10 for 444k and now a restored one brings almost the same price.

I believe this Sale is evidence of maturation of the hobby amongst collectors/investors. As more people enter the hobby with deep pockets who may know/care less about the hobby And just have to have a particular cardthe idea of restorations alterations are becoming more Acceptable like other aspects of the art/collecting world.

Many collectors used to have the opinion that it’s better to have a hole in a card than a hole in your collection. Personally I never accepted this doctrine as I sought creasefree presentable cards irrespective of the actual numerical grade. As time went on myself and others realized that some cards are in such short supply that you just need to take whatever is available if you eally wanted that card. Similarly are used to hate altered cards even if they presented well where as now I think a lot of collectors are more inclined to pick up these beautifully presenting cards even though they have been slightly altered as opposed to ugly examples in lower grade.

Slightly altered would be soaked, pressed corner or crease, trimmed edge, etc. This card went through major restoration. It is understandable demand of low pop cards in low grade or even altered cards that look nice. However, this card had 3 borders cut off. By restoring it does that make it worth more? Or is this the bottom on price now and altered or low grade worth more than before?

i'm aware of the restoration that was done on this wagner...my point being "restoration" is being more accepted in the hobby...imo.

I understand that. My question is how does the restoration price relate to the altered price or the "beater" price now? I always thought that it was much less. So is this sale a change in thinking or does it drive up the value of others?

Time will tell I suppose??

Perhaps third party graders should have 2 separate designations - authentic, and authentic restored. Or is it already too late for that?

i'm sorry....
 

card is not authentic when it has been altered this much......if this is where the hobby is going, I don't like it one bit! card went way too much:eek:

full disclosure: I would take it if it was given to me;)

but........................

it's not an "original" card!!!.....a major restoration on cards, art, antiques, I get it, but not one cards....:eek: it changes the original integrity of the card where extent of future restoration of cards will be blurred.....meaning soon you wont be able to tell where the original ends and the "new" "restored " pieces are added...

condition of the original will not matter anymore....if you have enough cash you can just make it gem mint!:eek:

who is too say what was "unrestored" and what is "original" if a card is restored, holdered, then cracked out???? soon we won't be able to tell...

all previous cards grades will be useless....

just "build up the soft corners", "touch up" or add more back on that broadleaf 460....

this is opening a major can of worms and I don't like it

Could we get one true beater, cut it up into tiny bits, then “restore” each bit to now have, say, a dozen authentic cards?

In answer to the original question, I think we should feel happy for someone who got a card that he obviously really wanted. If it is not something that we would like (I really don't like the appearance of the card, but I am not against restoration) then we should not buy similar cards. However, we should always be happy for passionate collectors adding to their collections.

i think this gets to be cost prohibitive?

Pete....
 

not really! spring $400 k for a psa 1 .....the spend 20 k per card to add other T206 cardboard....."create" 12 cards " frankenwagners" sell 12 frankenwagners like the memory lane ...... be on easy street:)

cost:

$400,000.00 original + $20,000(restoration fee) (12)=

$640,000 K total cost

sell 12 "franken-wagners" @ =$420,000.00 (12)= $5,040,000.00

$5,040,000.00 revenue

$5,040,000.00 (revenue) - $640,000.00 (cost)= $4,400,000.00


4.2 million dollar profit from one original :)


DEFINITELY COST EFFECTIVE:)

By the way....
 

definitely happy for the guy who won it! he must be very wealthy to drop almost a half million on a "re creation":D

there you have it...a career for someone who wants one!!!!!!

Pete....
 

hahaha!!!

the t206 auto forger is probably working on this now!

Hell......topps should buy a wagner and make "piece of history cards"

put 1/32 of a wagner on each insert(like a bat card) sell $20,000 each!

32 cards X 20,000k per insert = $640,000

beater $250k- $400 k

make a quarter million dollar profit:D

the strong
 

sale of this "creation " will definitely set an ugly precedent.......:eek:




cars, art, I get......maybe even coins stretching it!



but stamps, paper currency and especially sports cards HELL NO!

No it doesnt work that way , so much of the original has to be there ...

one more point to re visit....
 

at what percentage of a restored card original cardboard is needed to consider it original???

1/32 nd???( 3.125%)..........1/10 th???(10 %)......1/5 th????(20 %).....

1/2 ???(50 %):confused:

c mack....
 

this is what I'm saying......

sometimes we will "never know".....if you don't have a before and after photo....

the franken wagner that just sold maybe was 65% original???
when you consider the coardboard, the extra glue, ink ect....


it becomes too subjective...

too much liability to forgery and fraud....

the hobby is polluted with this stank already...

excepting this "restoration/recreations" is setting a future precendent that opens the floodgates to fraud and future forgeries.....

it will pollute the hobby further......cards will be "restored" and "recreated" and "enhanced", and not holdered, or slipped by graders ect...opens us up to too much shit....

trust me, this is not a good thing:o


this worries me......future graded cards may actually be "restored"


build up a corner here and there, add some ink, ugh, YUCK:eek:

Well all you have to do is call psa or sgc and see what thier stance on the subject is but I'm sure it's well over 50% , most of the card is there so it seems like a perfect candidate for the work. It's not like the restored work is fooling the graders so I dont the fear of Fraud with this stuff happening

But what if someone get the piece that wasn't part of the original Wagner, but part of the restoration? Will Topps designated that like they do game-used jersey piece vs. event-worn jersey piece?

rats....
 

lol.....no.....saying topps buy a 100% original and chop it up(not a franken one)

c mack
 

this particular card ....we had the "before" and "after" pictures.....plus had the restoration report.....

btw....the restoration report may not be accurate??? who is to say???maybe the original conservator forgot to document something else that was done????


btw...I will go out on a limb and say both SGC and PSA are absolutely CLUELESS sometimes...they change their minds and policies on grading cards....at one time they were grading errors , no names, color variations( sgc at least).....then they became "skittish"


PSA are also clueless.....I doubt they would be able to tell all of the restoration that is / or will be performed and the cards in the future....

will all of these "future" restored cards have a "restoration report"???

I doubt it:rolleyes:


PSA and SGC will not care, they get big bucks to slap these big cards in a piece of plastic and print "restored" on the flip.......then they get prob $3,000 to grade a card like the frankenwagner....


did psa produce a "restoration report" on this card?????:confused:

NO

they got paid either way....and covered their asses by labeling "restored"....


you think they would include their own findings???? like research the card and actually verify what the conservator did??? and produce their own report on the card....that would be too much work and cost too much:) like the litho background was it reproduced by the "fill in ink???" I highly doubt it...


this is a shitshow!:eek:

hell, if I owned a grading company, I would at the very least scan every card that was graded and keep at least a data base....

:confused:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say/assume that PSA probably didn't even keep a high res scan of the card before it was graded....:eek:


card restoration opens up too many "what ifs" and grey area........simply stated this will increase fraud prob 10 fold....

JOHN VANDERBECK

if
 

PSA did not include a grading report, they would prob be afraid of the liability of "missing something" in the report....so it's much easier to just say "RESTORED" ....print a 20 cent label.....seal an almost half a million dollar card in a 2 dollar piece of plastic, while some 18 year old kid for all we know sealed it up:D in the back room.....c'mon.....this shit is common sense!

include credentials of the grader, include the amount of time spent grading the card, include the "extent " and detailed list either corroborating what the original restoration or "re creation" report either disclosed or didn't...then collect you r multi k grading fee...


such a "high" profile card should be thoroughly evaluated, documented, scanned, and a detailed list cross checking what was "allegedly" done to the card to "restore" in this case "re create" the card......

I'm sorry again PSA .... I have to say this is weak......if card restoration will be accepted in the future, include and disclose all this info, before and after pictures , and detailed info from the grader! just to mention a few .... especially on such high profile cards......then justify the high price to slab it...


even then I still would steer clear of any of these "creations"

to each his own, but don't f up our hobby even more:)


JOHN VANDERBECK:)

one more full disclosure....
 

I have always wanted to start my own grading company.....I have many ideas:)
collector / customer focused

one more post
 

if you are the one who won the Wagner congrats ! to each his own.....I do not want to take away from your card/excitement or anything......I was realizing not fair of me....please forgive, my favorite card is the Wagner, so I get passionate about it....didn't mean to beat it up too much:)

I also hate restored cards as you can see:)