T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>with the 'N' cards, it would appear that the 'N' stands for 'n'ineteenth century.<br /><br />is it possible the original designation for 'T' was 't'wentieth century? And the 'T' later on turned into 'Tobacco'?<br /><br /><br />can any of our hobby historians clear this up?

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>I don't think that Burdick ever used the "N" prefix when he developed his classification system. Nineteenth century cards were simply known by their assigned numbers; "172", "300" etc. The prefix was added by later chroniclers for the sake of consistency. I believe that the "T" prefix was always meant to stand for "tobacco".

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Burdick didn't use "N" for nineteenth century tobacco he used it for an international issue, I believe. Bert Sugar put the N in Nineteenth century. I think Burdick did use T for twentieth century tobacco cards...

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't believe there is a single known card which uses the "T" designation that didn't come with some tobacco product. Also, there are no pre-1900 "T" cards. So in a sense it happens to stand for both.

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>as far as i always knew, "T" stands for "twentieth century tobacco cards"<br /><br />scroll to the bottom...c/o david hornish.<br /><br />www.oldbaseball.com/refs/typecards.html<br /><br />

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>From my copy of The American Card Catalog, 1960.<br /><br />on page 42...<br /><br />"Section 5"<br />"19th century U.S. Tobacco Insert Cards"<br />then follows a list of N cards<br /><br /><br />and on page 59...<br /><br />"Section 6"<br />"20th century U.S. Tobacco Insert Cards"<br />then follows a list of T cards<br /><br /><br /><br />Seems OBVIOUS to me that N is for nineteenth century tobacco, and T is for twentieth century tobacco.<br /><br /><br />Frank W.

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Frank my friend. Keep looking in the ole ACC and you will see Burdick did NOT use N for 19th century tobacco. He used N for other issues....maybe South America? He only used a number for 19th century and no prefix letter....take care

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>is if the 'tobacco' portion was an afterthought.<br /><br />I can see by the posts that T stands for Twentieth Century Tobacco (thank you).<br /><br /><br />Diving into the thought process... just wondering if the pioneers initially thought that an an 'N' and a 'T' would suffice... and then said - oh crap.... we need to further break these Ts down to Ds and Ms and such.<br /><br /><br /><br />edit: frank - I just re-read your post, and you are suggesting they both 'n and t' stood for tobacco. which I guess would make sense.

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>If T is for Twentieth Century and tobacco cards, why aren't Twentieth Century candy cards TE? Just curious <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />*edited spellin'.

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Burdick started the ACC numbering system and I always go to his writings first. E was for Early gum and candy cards....

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>I should probably do more of my own research on that side of the hobby.

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>In the ACC "N" was originally used for Central and South American Tobacco.<br /><br />ie.<br /><br /><img src=http://centuryoldcards.com/images/susinix3.jpg><br />1915 N230-3 Susini<br /><br /><br /><img src=http://centuryoldcards.com/images/diazbenton.jpeg> <br />1924 N258 Diaz Cigarettes<br /><br /><img src=http://members.aol.com/canofprimo/1931bigott.jpg><br />1931 N561 Bigott<br /><br /><br />

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well now, Leon... I conceed that Mr. Burdick grouped other stuff in with N.<br /><br />Burdick's "special index" on page 4...<br /><br />"N C & S Amer. Tobacco 73"<br /><br />And there, on page 73, it has N1 as Argentine Cowboys.<br /><br /><br />Back on page 43, "1 American Editors (50) 1st series, numbered"<br /><br /><br />So I see what you mean, Leon, some of the cards that we think of today as N cards were just numbered in 1960.<br /><br /><br /><br />On page 11 Burdick has a section headed Listing Style. In it he actually mentions that the initial letter in the listing identifies card type, "except Section 5 (19th Tobacco inserts) which is without a letter." sic.<br /><br /><br />My catalog is a 1960 one. I had another but traded it for some E cards several years ago, I can't recall what year it was. <br /><br />I still think somewhere along the line that N crept in front of the 19th century tobacco cards.

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's no big issue...it's just cards. I am pretty sure that Bert Sugar gave the N designation to Nineteenth century tobacco cards....take care

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Since you have all of those N cards... maybe you could dig around and find me what I think of as an N1 American Editors of Henry Waterson. About Good is enough for me...<br /><br />

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>I think N561 is the only South American baseball issue with the "N" designation. At least that I'm aware of. <br /><br />-Ryan

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Sorry to bump this thread, but I just wanted to clarify what I was saying since I did receive an e-mail question about it. My point was that N was not for Central and South American issues, but obviously included Cuba as noted by the N230-3 and N258 issues. <br /><br />In spite of spending nearly 50 years under Castro, Cuba has not yet been kicked out of North America, unless I missed it. <br /><br />So maybe Burdick meant "Latin American" or "Carribean" instead of "Central and South American".<br /><br />-Ryan

T: An insignificant question
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>From Mr. Burdick's "special index" on page 4...<br /><br />"N C & S Amer. Tobacco 73"<br /><br /><br />I am editing this 'cause I've looked again at that index page...<br /><br /><br />There's an N, then a bunch of space before the C & S...<br /><br /><br />I'll scan that page tonight and get it posted.<br /><br /><br />FW