Net54baseball.com Forums

Net54baseball.com Forums (http://www.net54baseball.com/index.php)
-   Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions (http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Ty Cobb 1907 rare rookie postcards - Their origin stories told (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=248296)

T206Jim 12-02-2017 08:46 AM

Ty Cobb 1907 rare rookie postcards - Their origin stories told
 
13 Attachment(s)
Here is the story behind two of the rarest of Ty Cobb's 1907 rookie postcards. I'll start with what is the least well known of Cobb's 1907 postcards, the H.M. Taylor Wild Bill Donovan Floral Horseshoe Lafond version.

Attachment 297162


It depicts Donovan receiving a floral horseshoe during the September 30, 1907 Tigers game at Philadelphia when his Philadelphia fans presented him with this token of their appreciation. A youthfully exuberant Cobb is at the far right. The regular version does not contain "By permission of M.A. Lafond & Co...." overprint. So how did this Lafond version come to be and how was it distributed?

Lafond was a cigar store in Detroit. They advertised on the Bennett Park wall as shown below.

Attachment 297161

The Lafonds were related by marriage to Wild Bill Donovan and as the October 23 edition of The Tobacco Leaf (a tobacco trade magazine) shows they displayed the Donovan Floral Horseshoe in their shop window in Detroit.

Attachment 297169

Attachment 297160 Attachment 297158

The floral horseshoe game was September 30th and by October 5th the Horseshoe was on display at LaFonds as shown in the Detroit Free Press of October 6th.

Attachment 297157

This October 11 LaFond ad in the Detroit Free Press shows the exhibition from the window was already gone.

Attachment 297167

This ad for the H.M. Taylor set was advertised in the October 16th Detroit Free Press.

Attachment 297170

Here is the front cover of the Detroit Free Press from October 6th when the Tigers clinched the A.L. pennant. It is the first use of this famous photo I can find and variations of the photo were used on numerous 1907 Tigers postcards.

Attachment 297163

The earliest postmark I can find on any H.M. Taylor Tiger postcard is about October 10, 1907 when the World Series against the Cubs was being played. A shot of Chance in the Tigers dugout before the World Series commenced is a part of the set. Thus it stands to reason that the H.M. Taylor set was issued during the 1907 World Series and that the Lafond version of the Floral Horseshoe postcard was overprinted especially for the LaFond store and only distributed by them at their store the week of the display or for a short time afterward. This would explain extreme scarcity of this variation.

Now for the second half of the story. Look at the LaFond window image at the extreme right. We see what looks to be an uncut sheet of the 1907 Dietsche Tigers. Look closer, we can see the rare Fielding Cobb on the bottom row second from the left, but there is no Cobb batting version on the sheet. Remember, this was on display October 5th.

Attachment 297159

Here are October 6th Detroit Free Press ads showing the Dietsche poses, including the Cobb Fielding.

Attachment 297164 Attachment 297165

Now look at these pages from the October 11th Detroit Free Press advertising the Dietsche set. The uncut sheet here shows the Cobb batting, but not Cobb Fielding. it stands to reason the Batting replaced the Fielding early in the print run, probably in a matter of a week. This would explain the relative scarcity of the Cobb Fielding as opposed to the Cobb Batting.

Attachment 297166

If anyone has any information to add about any of these rare 1907 Cobb postcards I'd love to hear from you!


Golfcollector 12-02-2017 09:25 AM

Great post!

insidethewrapper 12-02-2017 09:46 AM

It also states they sell full sets on a single sheet. I never seen one of them before. Has an uncut sheet ever been in a major auction ?

bgar3 12-02-2017 10:29 AM

I had an uncut sheet of the images, on postcard stock, but I cannot remember if they had postcard backs, , that found its way to a major Cobb collector about 25 years ago. It was a 3 party deal, I did not have direct contact with the collector, sorry.

insidethewrapper 12-02-2017 10:49 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I've seen uncut sheets from the 1908 set ( this is a reprint sheet on ebay ), not 1907 or 1909.

Al C.risafulli 12-02-2017 11:13 AM

Fantastic stuff, Jim, as always.

That window display is amazing.

-Al

insidethewrapper 12-02-2017 11:33 AM

Jim: I see 15 postcards in the window display, seems like something is covering the lower right corner. What is it ? I wonder if their was another card that we can't see ( Cobb batting ??? ) We will only know for sure if someone produces this uncut sheet. The window display ( cobb fielding) and the offered sheet ( cobb batting) are different.

T206Jim 12-02-2017 11:47 AM

There are only 15 cards there, the bottom right spot is a white plug that probably contains written advertising. The Coughlin above it has white dirt showing which blends into the plug and gives the false impression the lower slot is covering part of the sheet.

Jason 12-02-2017 12:25 PM

Awesome research and a great post. Thank you for sharing it.

orly57 12-02-2017 01:11 PM

Jim, if the whole Judge career thing doesn't work out, you can be my private investigator any time. Awesome research. I think you confirmed the long-standing suspicion that the Fielding came first and was quickly replaced by the Batting.

Bicem 12-02-2017 01:22 PM

Amazing research Jim!

Baseball Rarities 12-02-2017 01:25 PM

Great info Jim. Really appreciate the post.

Kris19 12-02-2017 01:28 PM

H.M. Taylor Ty Cobb
 
Shameless leveraging of Jim's awesome research and post, I just listed an H.M. Taylor "Tyrus Cobb at Bat" postcard, PSA 3.5, for sale in the B/S/T section. Thanks, Jim!

T206Jim 12-02-2017 01:50 PM

Thanks guys, the Floral Horseshoe completed my H.M. Taylor set and this post was my way of celebrating. For me, half of fun of this hobby is acquiring knowledge and the other half is sharing it! Oh and Kris, when can I expect that commission check?

the-illini 12-02-2017 01:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Great information!

Here is a related item I picked up on Ebay recently - an interior shot of the "Dietsche Rememberance Shop" on Woodward Avenue in Detroit...

T206Jim 12-02-2017 01:57 PM

Orlando, it is funny how we sometimes just chance into a revelation. I was researching the LaFond version when I just happened to notice the Cobb Fielding in the corner, realized the significance of the dates, and thought this might just prove that long standing theory. Spread the news to the Cobb and Dietsche collectors out there.

Baseball Rarities 12-02-2017 03:22 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a team display sheet. Unfortunately, not mine.

Baseball Rarities 12-02-2017 03:44 PM

Here are just a few notes that I have regarding the different Cobb "rookie cards." For reference, the World Series that year started on October 8 in Chicago and ended on October 12 in Detroit.

Detroit Seamless Postcard - of the six known examples, five are postmarked - three on October 4, 1907, one October 5 and one on October 7.

Wolverine Postcard - the earliest postmark from this set that I can find is October 9, 1907. Few of the postcards from this set found cancelled.

AC Dietsche - the earliest postmark from this set that I can find is October 9, 1907. Only a small percentage of postcards from this set are found cancelled.

HM Taylor Postcard - the earliest postmark from this set that I can find is October 7, 1907. Most of the postcards that I see from this set are canceled..

W600 - first offered to the public in the October 19, 1907 issue of the Sporting Life.

insidethewrapper 12-02-2017 09:21 PM

Now if someone has the 1909 Sheet ( if it exists) we will be able to determine if the Detroit Team Photo should or should not be part of the three year set or if it is in fact a stand alone postcard.

WillowGrove 12-02-2017 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities (Post 1725844)
Great info Jim. Really appreciate the post.

+1

Good info too on the postmarked dates of other early Cobb PCs Kevin. Thanks

ullmandds 12-03-2017 06:15 AM

Fantastic presentation jim!!! I was not familiar with the Lafond images those are so cool!!

calvindog 12-03-2017 09:01 AM

Jim, fantastic work there.

Kevin, thanks for that info.

benchod 12-03-2017 10:51 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Great sleuthing, Jim. Thanks for the informative post

Kevin, thanks for the postmark information; you know where a lot of the bodies are buried in this hobby!

Here is my meager contribution

Leon 12-05-2017 07:37 AM

Great research, Jim. And thanks to all of the contributors in this thread. It is appreciated by all. And some day 50 yrs down the road maybe someone will Google this subject and find it here :).

.

Baseball Rarities 12-05-2017 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benchod (Post 1726108)
Here is my meager contribution

Such a great postcard. Love the way that he has his bat in one hand and glove in the other. He is definitely ready to play ball.

Bicem 12-05-2017 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities (Post 1726635)
Such a great postcard. Love the way that he has his bat in one hand and glove in the other. He is definitely ready to play ball.

@BeanTown

oh wait, this isn't Instagram.

Rich Falvo 12-05-2017 09:26 AM

That Detroit Seamless card is beautiful.

T206Jim 12-05-2017 06:58 PM

It is apparent that the 1907 World Series, and the many popular Tiger sets it spawned, was a seminal event for baseball postcards of the Deadball Era. If Tiger mania hadn't swept Detroit that year would many of these sets, and many of the major sets (Rose, Novelty Cutlery, Sepia etc.) that followed followed in their wake in the next few years, even been issued?

docpatlv 12-05-2017 10:01 PM

Jim, there is also a jumbo sized postcard of the floral horseshoe postcard pictured in the first post (without the extra print line). I was told that only 2 were known to exist and that one of them was in a museum in Detroit. I can post a picture later.

BeanTown 12-05-2017 10:45 PM

Thank you for posting Jim. Wonder how many things are out there from 1905 and 1906 with Cobb. Glad to see all the known owners of Seamless Tube cards posted! Now its a party!

@lotgconsignments

T206Jim 12-06-2017 05:50 AM

I'd love to see a picture of the jumbo floral horseshoe postcard!

Also, I saw that LOTG just sold a Tiger team RPPC with that pose postmarked September 8, 1907, so the team photo was from a little earlier than I thought.

JC, I'm glad to host the party, I just wish I belonged to that club!

Bicem 12-06-2017 08:53 AM

Makes sense that the litho team postcards were produced after the real-photo one. Nice catch Jim.

BeanTown 12-06-2017 04:49 PM

JC, I'm glad to host the party, I just wish I belonged to that club![/QUOTE]

Im with you Jim. There is hope we will both have a chance to acquire one in the future. 4 cards have been discovered over the last four years making the population 6 now. Hopefully 2018 will bring yet another new one to add to the low population.

docpatlv 12-06-2017 09:34 PM

Jim,

Here is the Jumbo Floral Horseshoe postcard I mentioned earlier...


https://photos.imageevent.com/docpat...igersJumbo.jpg

orly57 12-06-2017 09:39 PM

They must have had huge mailboxes in 1907.

T206Jim 12-07-2017 05:42 AM

Terrific oversize floral horseshoe! What is the back story on it?

insidethewrapper 12-07-2017 01:05 PM

I can't see the oversized photo ! Now I see it. Great photo, thanks for posting. Love Detroit items.

Leon 12-09-2017 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orly57 (Post 1727173)
They must have had huge mailboxes in 1907.

LOL. That is a great PC....

Bicem 12-09-2017 09:09 PM

If anyone can find a type one of that photo I'm all in.

T206Jim 12-19-2017 06:26 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Kevin, for your list here is the earliest mention of the Dietsche set I can find. It is from October 2, 1907.

Attachment 299307

Baseball Rarities 12-19-2017 07:10 AM

Great info Jim. Out of curiosity, what newspaper is that from?

T206Jim 12-19-2017 07:25 AM

1 Attachment(s)
That was from the Detroit Free Press, they had one other similar ad that day as well. It seems to imply Dietsche had a Tiger window set up similar to the one LaFond's had.

Attachment 299309

These were in essence classified ads on the front page.

orly57 12-19-2017 03:52 PM

I can't help but to imagine Jim's Judicial clerk reviewing microfiche at the library. "Looking for Judicial Clerk who can type 70 words a minute, write complex briefs, and research rare postcards. Accepting applications."

Bicem 12-19-2017 11:56 PM

Application sent.

T206Jim 12-20-2017 06:19 AM

Jeff, you’re hired, but I don’t know how i’m Going to break the news to Al!

ls7plus 12-21-2017 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orly57 (Post 1725834)
Jim, if the whole Judge career thing doesn't work out, you can be my private investigator any time. Awesome research. I think you confirmed the long-standing suspicion that the Fielding came first and was quickly replaced by the Batting.

+1!!! Great post, especially from the perspective of one who has both 1907 Dietsche Cobbs!

Thanks much,

Larry

insidethewrapper 12-21-2017 01:29 PM

I'm confused ! The ad in the Detroit Free Press states : " All the Detroit Stars in fielding positions " but the photo in the window shows many of the photos
( players ) in a batting position. Does this mean all the players with a batting pose have a variation like Cobb ( both fielding and batting ) ??

T206Jim 12-21-2017 01:42 PM

No, the Fielding/Batting dinstinction is a purely modern collecting construct. They meant the players are depicted in action.

insidethewrapper 12-21-2017 01:46 PM

Thanks Jim. I would never have thought fielding meant batting.

SAllen2556 12-22-2017 04:45 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's the 1908 ad from November 3rd which mentions the updates to the set.
Edited to add: I found no ad whatsoever from 1909.

Attachment 299683


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:56 PM.