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First player to reach 3000 hits not to make the HOF?
I nominate Nick Markakis. More than reasonable chance at 3k hits (will have about 2250 by the end of this season, turns 35 after season is over) no shot at HOF.
Anyone else? EDIT: Oh and it's not a popular sentiment, but Ichiro shouldn't be a Hall of Famer, but he will be. |
For a while, I thought Starlin Castro was a sure thing, given how young he started.
I honestly don't know. Nobody else close enough to, or over 2,000 hits with a realistic shot at 3,000. |
When he comes back, Robinson Cano still has a shot. He currently has 2,417 hits and he's 35.
Steve |
Rafael Palmiero will never make the HOF.
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That is a lot of hits in his late 30s for a guy who has never had more than 191 hits in a year (that was at age 23). Many/most guys hit a wall production wise in their mid to late 30s. It's not at all unusual for a guy that age to go from being a productive, everyday player to batting .220 in a platoon over the course of a single offseason. If he was at 2,600-2,700 hits after this season, I think then he would have a reasonable chance. I think he is too far away from 3,000 for his age, There is a definite difference in the quality of players in the 3,000 hit club and some of the guys in the 2,700-2,800 range: Omar Vizquel (2,877), Harold Baines (2,866), Johnny Damon (2,769), Rusty Staub (2,716), |
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I did the math and thought an average of 150 hits per, while not a gimme, was reasonably possible, that's what actually led to the thread! |
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On one of the other message boards I post on, I remember there being a huge debate for how many hits Derek Jeter would finish with. Jeter had a great year as a 38 year old in 2012 with 216 hits (over 3,300 hits through his age 38 season). Some of the people in that discussion were projecting him for 4,000 hits based on that 2012 season. Most people in the thread thought it was a given that he would at least get to Hank Aaron at 3,771 for third all-time. The following year, he played in only 17 games. Two years after that great season, he retired. I know that is just one anecdotal example, but Markakis still seems really far away to me. |
If Nick Markakis makes it to 3000 hits though, will he look more like a HOFer? Look at Craig Biggio. Take away his last 2 seasons where he was a replacement level player and he has 2795 hits, a 112 OPS+, 67.2 WAR and 54.5 JAWS. Does he make the HOF? Is he better than Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich? Guys that got 2.9% and 2.6% of the HOF vote and were off the ballot in 1 year.
Rafael Palmeiro isn't in the HOF because of steroids. If Bonds or Clemens gets in, that will open the gates for other steroids guys like Palmeiro. Rafael certainly has as good of a case as Biggio if we ignore the cheating. |
Other than clear steroid cases, is Sheffield the only one with 500 HR not in?
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Read Bill James on Biggio.
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In terms of HOF there is something to be said about consistency and Longevity. It may not be sexy but it's very impressive and as worthy of guys who had shorter careers and more spectacular seasons.
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Nope. He decided to take a different kind of shot instead. What an idiot! |
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When did he admit it? I don't recall reading that...though I certainly believe he did. |
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The problem is that Perez, Rice, and Cepeda were pretty bad choices for the hall. (Dawson is a step above those guys.) Perez is in because the hall has always looked kindly on good players who played for great teams. (Earle Combs, Tony Lazzeri, and so on.) Cepeda and Rice were mistakes. But basically these guys are indistinguishable from hordes of other guys, and McGriff is one of the ones who got left out. (Along with Fred Lynn, Luis Gonzalez, Ken Williams, Dale Murphy, Bob Elliot, Torii Hunter, Brian Giles, Norm Cash, Ellis Burkes, Bernie Williams, and on and on.)
As for Ichiro, he won me over on the HOF thing eventually. The more interesting question is whether he's going to get into the Japanese hall of fame. He was extraordinarily good while playing for Orix, but he came to America at 27. Most of his career has been over here. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that he goes in. Ichiro is the proof that the best Japanese players are world class baseball players. I mean, it's hard to doubt that Oh or Nagashima were world class, but Ichiro is the proof that they were. There is also some precedent here. Hideki Matsui is in the Japanese hall of fame, even though he left Japan at 29. I'd guess that Ichiro is the first player to be inducted into both halls of fame. |
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WOW! What a petty guy bonds is! Totally unredeemable IMO. |
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I can't believe I'm reading posts that suggest even in the slightest that Ichiro is a borderline HoFer or shouldn't be a HoFer at all. :confused:
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All-Star and Gold Glove RFer for 10 straight years, an MVP, led the league in hits 7 years. Had speed, cannon arm, great teammate, never heard any bad news about him. Whats not to like? |
Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.
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Ichiro had three problems (1) he was a corner outfielder who didn't have any power, (2) he never drew a walk so his on-base percentage was not as good as you would expect given his batting average and, by far most importantly, (3) he spent most of his peak years in Japan. Most players produce most of their value in their 20s, and Ichiro spent most of his 20s overseas. If you combine his production in Japan and USA he's easily qualified, but historically the only non-MLB play that the American hall recognizes is the negro leagues. (Otherwise guys like Buzz Arlett would be in the hall.) Like I said above, however, I think that even his just-USA performance is worthy of enshrinement, and I suspect that he'll get some extra credit in Japan and get inducted there too.
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WHICH Harvey? DOUG Harvey's already in. MATT Harvey won't ever get in. Harvey DENT...now, HE might get enough support! . |
Does it really matter where your peak years were played if you still wind up with the career Ichiro had?
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Sort of odd how people also say Lynn should be in, when he had only a few good years, many ruined by the almost required "long drive Lynn goes back to the wall jumps and ... pulls his groin" (I liked him as a player, but wow was he fragile) Of course nobody talks about Evans who had about as good an arm as Ichiro, and had some power. |
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Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees. |
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Totally agree. The Hall of Fame should be the farthest thing away from handing out Participation Trophies. There will always be passionate arguments for those who aren't in... Minnie Minoso and Luis Tiant are the two I support for induction. I really hated the fact that Minnie passed away without that honor, but after the way Ron Santo was treated, I'm not surprised. |
You always see the Jim Rice guys who turn out whenever someone rains on his parade. And it's always the same argument: did you see him play?
So question for you guys: did you think Jim Rice was better than Albert Belle? You would have seen them both play by virtue of seeing Rice. |
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Evans was the better player. Part of the reason that he doesn't get as much recognition as he deserves is that his best season, when he led the league in HRs, was cut short by the strike.
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I'd rate them pretty close overall as hitters, Belle maybe a bit better overall, while Rice had more power. I've never seen the ball get out of the park so fast. No lengthy HR calls with him up. |
First one to get the 3000 not in the hall
The answer..... PETE ROSE
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Also Fred McGriff gets no love. I feel like he is a HOFer, 94 strike probably cost him the 500 HR club, and unfortunately for him he played in the Steroid Era and was never associated with PEDs |
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no way Nick will have another healthy year as well. Funny how one year can erase years and years of questionable health.. Ryan Zimmerman last year erased all of those unhealthy years and look at him this year...health issue. Lets have a guy have back to back good years when they are in their 30s before we project another 4 or so years.. |
He's 34 and almost 1,000 hits shy of 3,000. I don't even see a remote chance he reaches 3,000. He hasn't even gotten 900 hits in the past 5 seasons while in his prime. Is there any reason to think he'll be an every day player till he's 40? How many of those are there?
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For 10 points no cheating name the only player under 30 with 1500 hits. It isn't Altuve.
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In his lead off at bat or when he was at bat with nobody on base he was a superior player, although even then if he was on 2nd (or even third with his speed he should have had a lot more triples) he would have scored even more often. Any time there was a man on base he hurt his team. Balls dropping in front of outfielders mean a guy on first usually only gets to second and a guy on second can't score. Not all singles are created equal, outfielders were almost always coming in on his hits setting them up to throw. People compare him to Boggs and Gwynn which is crazy. They both had a TON more extra base hits than Ichiro and neither of them will ever be mistaken for a power hitter. Plus I hate when a guy hangs on at the end of his career for milestone numbers. Ichiro has been pretty useless since 2010 if I recall correctly. If you like WAR he had 2 superstar seasons and 5 additional all-star seasons (again trusting memory here) that pales in comparison to Boggs or Gwynn. He is, to me, Hall of Very Good. Maybe if he hadn't lost 3 or 4 years of his prime to Japan the case would be different, especially if they were superstar caliber seasons like his best two. |
If there is a stat for the batter with the highest percentage of his hits being singles, I bet Ichiro is at the top.
Ps It's 81 percent, Rose was 75 or so. |
I believe Pete Rose has the most singles out of anybody. Was he a better or worse hitter than Ichiro? For posterity, they both had 10 seasons of 200 or more hits. The only difference is Ichiro's ten seasons were consecutive.
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Rose's OPS was 27 points higher. 746 doubles to Ichiro's 362.
Shall we play baseball reference? Rose Hall of Fame Statistics Black Ink Batting - 64 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink Batting - 239 (26), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 311 (15), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 55 (65), Average HOFer ≈ 50 Ichiro Hall of Fame Statistics Black Ink Batting - 43 (34), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray Ink Batting - 142 (114), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 234 (30), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 44 (128), Average HOFer ≈ 50 |
I only mentioned Rose vis a vis the singles. I don't think they were the same player stats-wise but I think they possessed the same ability to hit the ball where someone wasn't.
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