Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud
 

Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

Agree and also people are not revolting because everyone is making money hand over fist....check out the Facebook boards they don’t care everyone thinks it’s a investment.....they are still spending like crazy

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

I mean, I have 100K in 'the game" and I still don't really care to support it. Seriously, why would anyone continue to feed a criminal enterprise?

I always try to stand up for right vs wrong (in my own mind at least:D), I guess it's just in my nature?

I like the part of the hobby where people talk about a walk-off homer in 1906 and post a $75 card of the guy. It's just a hobby for me. I like baseball. The grading and prices for 8's 9's and 10's is and has always been kind of silly to me. I don't really see anything new about any of it.

Great question but not everyone is part of the criminal enterprise. I am old school as I have been collecting for the better part of 45 years and have continued my old school ways of collecting. I don't dabble in any of that high end stuff and collect what I like but most importantly, I use my experience and expertise to know if a card I just bought is how a card of that age should look, feel and smell. I have always used the rule that if a card looks too good to be true it likely is.

I go to local shows or buy from people who have shown themselves to be selling quality, unadulterated material but most of all, I do not need a third party to tell me how good a card is as I already know it because of experience. I think we can all stay in the hobby and stop feeding the criminal enterprise if one doesn't let their ego get in the way. Stop needing the highest quality card and paying stupid prices for the right to own a Wally Moon 1959 Topps PSA 9. Ungraded that cards goes for a few bucks so be happy with that. As others have said I blame the registry for fueling the stratospheric prices of even the most common, highly graded cards and the egos of the people who need to be at or near the top.

If we go back to old school happiness I feel one will be happy with what you collect. Is this a simplistic view on the current hobby? Sure it is but then again...is it really?

Thumbs upChuck.

I have only purchased a couple of cards this year, one from Barry.

Jeez, I hope he’s not part of a racketeering enterprise.:D

Well I sold a total of about four cards this year, so it wouldn't be very much of a racket.

I probably fall somewhere between Chuck's dystopian view of a hobby gone to hell, and Jay's love of baseball history and the early artifacts of the game. Yes, this scandal really gave the hobby a wallop and I don't blame anybody who decides to throw in the towel. But I still think it's possible for each of us to find a way to enjoy collecting.

Unfortunately, the way the hobby evolved was it became way too much about making a lot of money. And the TPG's entered the game with the promise of cleaning things up, but I think all they've really done is pour more gasoline on the fire. They became extremely powerful and in order to make a lot of money, you had to go through them. Maybe it would have been better if the hobby focused more on our love for baseball cards, and not on the minutiae of how square a corner should be. I know so many people feel the hobby is still better with the advent of third party grading, but I am going to respectfully disagree. I think they have done more harm than good.

But if one can focus on the great history of the game, and find something to collect that isn't so dependent on somebody else's opinion, I think there is still a way to enjoy this hobby.

I personally don't see the reason to do that, but I respect your decision to do so.

I collect because its something fun to do with my son and teaches him about baseball history. I learned in the 90's when the junk wax bubble went bust that this hobby is not an investment..at least for me..Im still waiting for my Kevin Maas rookie to pay for my retirement lol

I fall into this category as well...been collecting cards 43+ years...only vintage almost 30...i've never been too condition sensitive. I really like the collection I have put together...and I'm not rushing to get out...BUT...I've certainly changed my purchasing habits as of lately...and while I also find the grim reality of this hobby to be repugnant and shocking...I'm happy still collecting albeit on a different level.

I agree that many with lots of $$$$ tied up in high grade "commodities" and/or big buck cards...just keep chugging along hoping that things will continue as they have so far. And many seem not to really care if their cards are altered as long as they are not fake.

So has there been such growth in the hobby the last 5 or so years to make green cobbies in vg worth 10-15K? Will this be a 50K card in our lifetimes?

Who knows?

I just hope people are punished and changes do occur to improve the hobby...and I think the hobby is moving towards values based on the eye appeal of a card and not the technical grade...with alterations not mattering to more and more "collectors/investors" as time goes by.

I thought this was very well said, and it perfectly represents my feelings as well...

I feel TPGs have done great harm for the reasons Barry stated. My concern is that as the hobby evolves, the emphasis will become more and more about making money. And that will only motivate the card doctors / shady dealers to an even greater extent. That's why I'm hoping that Law Enforceent cracks down hard, and forces big changes upon PSA and the TPGs.

Something positive has to result from all of this!

In all seriousness, I think we have reached the tipping point.

If you want unaltered cards in your collection you are safer buying them raw rather than graded.

Clearly, collectors are going to have to rely on more that the professional graders to judge if a card is altered. And one learns how to identify alterations by owning and examing raw cards.

And there will be a point that a particular collector can do a better job than the professional grader at identifying if his cards are altered, if only because they spend more time examining the card. In fact, considering the time professional graders take to examine a card, there's no reason to believe that there will soon be many collectors better able to identify alterations than grader-- but this won't include collectors who only buy graded cards and keep them in the holders..

For some reason for four decades I have not felt involved in the 'I view cards as an investment' got to get it graded and boost my registry faction. Therefore I decline to do anything but stand on the sidelines as the monster that was created from greed comes crashing down.

Brian

Well Said Brian

People still do not think it’s gonna crash....they think everything is fine....hobby is flouring will only go up......

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I wish it would crash but I still believe it is business as usual. Just look at all the collectors lining up to send cards to PSA. They don't give a fook about the hobby.

No they don’t and it will crash...get your shopping list ready for a year or two down the road :-) that’s the one major positive in all of this....Much better levels to come for buying cards

The card market will crash, and so eventually will the economy (and the latter may have more effect on the former than this scandal). And like the economy, the value of cards will eventually rebound. Cards have gone up in value consistently over many decades- there have been peaks and valleys, but each peak is higher than the last (like stocks, real estate, etc). If you buy the right cards and you are long on those cards, I think “collectors” will do just fine. The question is: what are the “right cards”? That’s a subject for another thread.

I am also an old school collector that doesn't need a company to tell me how to feel about a card. What I think the problem is, is too many people got caught up in needing the best card out there. I get it. It's no different than wanting the biggest house on your street. Registries have probably done more harm than good. It's so temping. I couldn't tell you how many times I'd look at a 1960+ set and make a plan to build the best set and then throw the idea in the trash because I'd come to my senses knowing it's a bad investment. Obviously many haven't been that lucky to do the same.

As far as telling collectors to boycott the hobby, sorry but that will never happen. The people in the hobby that lost money are the ones that are the most upset. Many of us didn't get caught up in the grading game and we are doing just fine.

Lastly, here's a few tips for everyone. Learn the difference between true rarity and manufactured rarity. Learn to not factor in grade when determining rarity. Learn that when something says limited edition or collectors edition, it's not a good investment. Learn to enjoy the hobby for what it once was.

One thing from the provided link. A 1959 Topps baseball card #58 Eddie Miksis sold for $3,605. Thats a ten cent card.
Larry

crash
 

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

Exactly!! That's the main reason I posted this collecting tip. "Learn to not factor in grade when determining rarity". It's just not a rare card. It's hard to say who's at fault the most. The graders, the trimmers, or the people buying and selling these cards and driving the prices up. Some may be upset with me for saying the buyers and sellers but here's a perfect example.. There are certain cards I hoard and I've single handedly driven up the price on them. When another card comes up for sale, I have to pay much more for it. It's totally my fault. But it's my choice and I'm not doing it to make money.

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice. :)

Hopefully that doesn't happen but it wouldn't hurt me much either. Too many have turned cards into shares of stock. PWCC didn't help when they started their Investment Market Indices seen here https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/market-indices.

Believe me, I get not supporting something that I am opposed to.

Putting on the brakes for a while? Is one to assume that there is currently nothing good or honest in the hobby? That there is no way to get a fair and honest deal done?

I'm trying to understand this.

Likewise, with the opioid situation that has been created/advanced by SOME doctors, and SOME of big pharma, and SOME pharmacies, should I also not go to my doctor or my local pharmacy for my blood pressure meds or when I'm sick, until the issue is resolved?

Exactly :-) well put !

Well stated, Ron..... spoken by a true BB card collector.

As many of you that know me, know I have many completed sets (and sub-sets) of Sportscards from 1887 to 1987.
Less than 1 % of the cards in my entire collection are "Graded". I love the history of BB, and how it is reflected by many of the BB cards
which I collect. Researching how certain BB cards were printed, and how and where they were distributed. Which ones are rare, and who
do I contact to acquire the rare ones. This is how I derive enjoyment from this hobby.....no stress, no mess. And, most of all, all the fine
people I have met in the process, which have become life-long friends.

I seldom spend some "Big $$$$" on Graded cards. And in recent years I will if it's a card I need to complete (or upgrade) a set. Here are
4 examples of such purchases. Note that these cards are graded "A"….which stands for AWESOME and AFFORDABLE


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nkSC150x30.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...obbSGCx50b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SC150x30xb.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...StLouisSGC.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...McGlynn25x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tLouisSGCA.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

OP is a rather broad brush. You hate the hobby and think everyone is a crook? Then quit. Life's too short. Buh-Bye.

The scandal doesn't affect my collection at all since nearly every alteration-worthy card I have was self-submitted over the years. My focus now is on cards of my childhood (the seventies) and I had a blast at the National this year assiduously avoiding graded cards. I hope to continue that.

The hobby is what you make of it. I collected when people were happy to get rid of old cards, I will collect long after the TPG scandals are old news (and hopefully the culprits are in jail).

Don't let the crooks in this hobby ruin collecting for you. That would be like swearing off of cars because of the carjackers.

Our hobby is not just going to survive this; it is going to continue to thrive. Will there be a market correction in some facets of it? Surely, but our hobby is nearly 150 years old. It has survived so, so much.

People view sports cards as collectibles, history, crown jewels, investments, art, nostalgia and a way to get closer to the game. There is way too much to love about our hobby than to just walk away, though I suspect some will. But I'm a believer that more will come to it than walk away.

A few of you mention the market crashing - please explain specifically what you mean by this. Are you saying that one day I'm going to wake up and see the card prices come crashing down, like what happened to Bear Stearns and the other investment banks over ten years ago? If so, then here is what I have to say to you: DREAM ON!

Look, over the past twenty years, the US economy has gone through all kinds of crazy problems. Do you think when these things were happening, mid-grade 51' Bowman Mantles were going for $500 or even $1,000? See what I mean? Sure, there are cooling down periods, but then prices end up rebounding and reaching new highs.

This.

Look, I hate to see folks getting scammed and unethical jerks making a killing with this. But I fail to see how this should cause me to give up on a hobby I've enjoyed for 60 years. My interests are in building sets I enjoy using raw and lower-to-mid condition cards.

If anyone is waiting for a mass exodus from the hobby by hordes of collectors due to the hits taken by high-end investors they are going to be disappointed.

While I've taken a step back and look at the things I'm adding to my collection (as they say, work smarter, not harder), I still love the hobby, meeting people and realize probably more than ever that the hobby and Baseball has a lot to teach us. I most likely wont be making any big purchases but this is and should be a reminder, a wake up call as to why I got into the hobby to begin with. Was never about the money, but as a tool for my own education and really helped me keep away from drinking and drug use. And that is the real reason why I continue to collect.

I see your points and respect your opinions. I just think it's funny how people won't give it a rest and stop supporting a criminal enterprise.

Never been accused of being a control freak. I don't control anybody except myself so that part I think you are wrong. I'm many other things but that misses the mark. I'd really just like all collectors to stand up to the fraud. Is that too much to ask?

agreed, and this isn't what I want either.

I just want collectors to stand up to this industry. That includes ALL the selling platforms and TPG's that don't give a S**t and are clearly crooked. You do that by not supporting their product or service and hurt them where it counts. In their pocketbook.

++1
 

Beautifully put, Mark-

I'm in the cards values will decline substantially over time camp (look at antiques, stamps and coins) - but not because of the current scandal (although that won't help).

It all about demographics.

There are not as people going to baseball games. There are not as many watching baseball on TV. And bluntly, the game is not as important to society as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. And with all the specialist pitcher changes and all the take pitches to run up pitch counts stuff - I find the game WAY less interesting than when I was a kid.

Today it's NBA and NFL (with a HUGE life from Fantasy Football). They're fast. they're exciting.

So long term - those cards will go up in value and baseball will fall (especially for those insanely overpriced Mickey Mantle cards).

The current buyers are just too old to sustain the market that much longer (a decade at most), and the younger buyers are more into modern stuff AND they collect less stuff than the prior generation.

The only reason not to sell my cards now - I don't have enough money invested in them to matter! When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

Ditto. And this thread needs another card image

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ank%20back.jpg

"In 1955, there were 77,263,127 male American human beings. And every one of them in his heart of hearts would have given two arms, a leg and his collection of Davy Crockett iron-ons to be Teddy Ballgame."

As I've said before I anticipate pricing changes. I think some will leave the hobby or not sink as much money in, certainly not into "high grade" graded cards. Many people who otherwise would have won't enter the hobby, or enter with the same amount of "investment" money, when the learn the hobby is rife with corruption, wrong grades, illegal activity and entities that actually enable such behavior. Certainly, skepticism of grades and graders will rise tremendously. Further, even if conservation and alterations are more hobby accepted and normalized, I find it hard to believe that someone will still pay the same exponentially more for a 10 over a 9, or a 9 over an 8, because one altered card was altered microscopically better than another altered card. Even if you love altered cards, you're not going to pay an extra $100,000 for a card because a wrinkled was spooned better-- especially when, for the same effect, you could get the lower grade card and have it altered to your liking and higher grade for $200.

No question the normalization of alterations, and even acceptance of it, will reduce the grade rarity of many cards (as more and more cards will become "better and better" condition), which will lower prices there. That idea is borrowed from Barry Sloate and his keen insight.

The new knowledge about the capabilities of graders, and the prevalence of altered cards, will change how cards are considered and thus priced.

But there will also be a cottage industry for cards that have not been altered, and more knowledge about which cards are altered and which are not WILL rise substantially with time.

Good idea, Adam. Let's show some cardboard we LOVE.

Some recent pick-ups on the way. Purchased from a reputable establishment (REA) for prices that reflect strong demand in the marketplace.

I'm well aware of what's going on and have changed my habits accordingly, but I will continue to be an active and positive participant in the hobby. Sorry, Chuck.

Back at ya, with your avatar:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ehringer_1.jpg

Got the card when I was a kid; got the card signed at one of Gehringer's last autograph sessions.

Disagree. Young buyers start with modern because it has a low entry point. If you buy the right card at the right time, you can make a lot of money. Those collectors aspire to buy early Topps & Bowman cards of Mantle, Clemente and Jackie or Prewar cards of Ruth, Wagner and Cobb when they can afford them. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "made money off of a prospect, want to buy vintage."

Popularity of the sport is irrelevant to collectibility. The NFL is the most popular league, but its cards lag behind MLB and NBA. World Series TV ratings were about double what they were for the NBA Finals. So, there is still enormous interest still in the sport. It is also the first sport that most kids play with Little League. I don't see baseball cards going anywhere.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a7a499ae_n.jpg

I'll add a card too. I'm still buying the right high end cards. I don't think this one is trimmed or altered. I have always taken care in what I buy or who I deal with. This scandal has just caused me to slow down, but I will wait for the FBI to do a thorough investigation and all the facts to come out before I jump to conclusions.

One of the prettiest signatures in baseball. I love that card and the story behind it. Just another reason to love collecting.

As I've said before, I'd like to do away with giving the cards a numerical grade and just see a grade such as "Authentic". This would be a plus for collectors IMO. It would cut down on the overpriced cards. I know PSA & others offer this option, but as long as the numerical grade is around, especially for vintage cards, then the fraud, such as "trimming" for a higher grade, will continue to thrive. What would be the point in trimming a card if it wasn't going to get a numerical grade?

There is a better chance of the Earth colliding with Mars than the TPGs ditching numerical grades.

I think it should be obvious that, however the money comes and goes and however alterations are accepted or not, "highest grade" (quotes intentional) will become more plentiful and go down in value. Like McDonald's hamburgers, they're being made to order, plus most people will have caught on that the conditions are often if not mostly not real. Will they be collected and valued? Sure. Will they be valued at the same rate compared to when they were rarer and people thought unaltered? Of course not.

Peter Spaeth correctly pointed that some formerly very rarely centered cards have become readily available because people out there are "centering" them for the customers.

PSA Registry investor types are in a conundrum. They want to protect the status quo, but also know that the status quo means their precious grade rarities will become less and less (and less) rare and will devaluate that way . . . Adding to the quandary is they also fret about how many of their registry cards are altered, and how many will be outed as altered as time goes by.

PSA also is in a quandary. On one hand they want to be able to better identify altered cards, but on the other hands they don't know what to do with that ability vis a vis all those millions of dollars worth of cards in holders that are mislabelled.

Who knows, maybe it will end up being the wealthy registry big wigs who end up suing PSA.

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

So as not to confuse with other grading card services and their grading scales, how about forget the numbers and use the words:

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint

Otherwise, novices would get confused thinking a mint card (if called a 5) was in lesser condition than a PSA 6.

Or, go the Spinal Tap direction, and use a scale from 1-11. The 11s could be 10s that also are worthy of a little sticker....

It would make a great marketing slogan for the new grading service: "Yeah, but our grades go to 11."