1952 Christmas Rack Pack with Mantle
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I know all about these Christmas rack packs but have never seen a 52 Christmas Rack Pack with Mantle showing. Ebay seller is reputable but had this up last week and auction ended at $20K . Next day its back up for $24K Rack pack looks authentic down to the staples. Concerned about seal on bottom and fact that Mantle is on bottom of hanging pack instead of middle or top. Thoughts ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-C...53.m1438.l2649 |
Seems too good to be true. I’ve never seen 52’s before either but I’ve never got into the Xmas packs.
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Can you please educate me about these? Also why would someone sell this on eBay vs an auction house, if it was authentic?
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He sold 2 other 52 Christmas rack packs from same consignor which buyers are pleased with. |
Is this the same guy? I've asked similar questions on here about these rack packs and was informed by some very knowledgeable collectors that these are fakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3m0P4TbN8 |
Definitely stay away from these. They are too easily fabricated.
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That mantle is 100% fake, colour is off
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I was following this listing all last week. I came across it when it was an auction with an opening bid of $3,500 and no bids. I exchanged a few messages with the seller and he answered all my questions with no problem, but it started sounding like a scam when he said he had the pack on consignment from an "elderly gentleman" and he explained his "7 day return policy." I was already skeptical knowing that these Christmas rack packs are commonly tampered with and once I received confirmation that the Mantle is 100% fake, I definitely wasn't going to bid, but kept watching. The seller then jacked up the opening bid to $15,000 and I saw it "sold" for $20,000. So now it's relisted for even more? Total scam.
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Give me a break !! |
This is the same seller that is selling 1986 Fleer basketball packs graded by Atlas Grading Company for $350-400.
James |
It's a very appealing pack specially with the Mickey Mantle that mantle Definitely looks trimmed hopefully it's real.
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"I tried to ask the seller a few questions but he banned me from asking questions or bidding."
Banned for asking questions? That's like putting up a bat signal saying "this is fake". |
I have heard these are/were repacks. I would think it unlikely there would be both white and gray backs. It seems way too good to be true.
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Not this guy, but I was threatened with harassment charges for telling a guy he needed bigger pictures of his posted cards. It was easy to see he wasn't cropping them, which, of course, made them harder to see. I tried explaining to him how to go about it, but quickly realized he was intentionally doing it on purpose in order to hide the defects. It takes all kinds, and all kinds walk among us everyday, unfortunately! :( |
interesting strategy
Unknowing buyer would have to open pack to send in and find out card is a fake. If they bought it thinking it was real, they would likely never open it and find out:eek:
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I wrote the seller last night asking him some less than desirable questions about these packs and cards but received no reply as of yet.
As far as I know, I am not blocked/banned, but I will say I am disappointed to see he doesn't ship to Canada. :D |
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Let me know |
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Seller
The rack with the bad Mantle has been bouncing around, someone attempted to sell to my friend who owns Mt. Penn Sportscards in Pa. Please avoid the fantasy Christmas packs.
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If he thought Mantle was real, he would be better off opening pack and getting it graded.
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4 user ID's in 4 years.. newest one not even a month old...
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just for the record
I am the son. My dad is not completely ignorant about cards but he would ask me what i thought. thanks for clarifying, Tony was a little vague on the text he sent me.
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Looks like Vickey must have a stack of fake 52 Mantle's laying around her place in Harford CT....I believe she is the same seller offering this fine fake specimen.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-M...p2047675.l2557 http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=245231 |
I think Mark Murphy was the first, or one of the first to sell these, and advertised them in SCD. He said they were restocked Topps cards repackaged by a 3d party and sold in retail stores. But he did not or could not name the retail stores or the 3d party packager, and the dates that the packaging supposedly took place have varied ( 60s, 70s, 80s).
There has also been disputes about which Topps issues were initially involved. I think Murphy originally sold 54-63. Later, earlier and subsequent years appeared. Even if his story is true, there is no doubt someone else is continuing the process. Some people claim to be able to tell the "originals" from the later productions looking at staples and the configurations of the packaging. The folks claiming this are usually selling them. Here is some correspondence I had with Murphy and his partner about them http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/...psf6ae3a65.jpg http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/...psc0602a73.jpg |
Why on earth are ANY of you even remotely entertaining the idea that this eBay pack is real?
The Murphy find is really well documented esp on CU and can be found easily with a google search. But any Xmas pacs on eBay are 100% fake. No point in checking packaging, staples, anything. The research has been done and all of its fake. |
Wow. Thanks, close call. Saved by the bell. :)
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Explain the “Christmas rack packs”—where did they come from, are any of them legitimate and what’s usually inside? Another tough subject! These Christmas racks were not produced by Topps. That is first and foremost. All of these Christmas racks are not issued by Topps in any way in any type of Topps closeout. They have been produced by a third party and then retailed in stores. Most likely in dime stores around the country in the 60’s and 70’s. The cards are usually in EX to EX-MT condition at best. That leads me to believe that Topps did not even supply the cards for these! Had Topps supplied the cards, they would still most likely have been a little bit cleaner and sharper than the cards that are in these packs. I also see Christmas racks now that are being produced today. Most advanced pack collectors will tell you that these packs are not legitimate items since Topps didn’t produce them. I will never authenticate one as being real for this same reason. However–this is not to say that the racks have no value. The cards in the packs are still legitimate Topps cards. I have seen many racks with many major stars right on top. If a Christmas rack has a Sandy Koufax RC showing on top in EX-MT condition, well then, it still obviously is worth whatever that card is worth to you! A 1962 Topps Christmas rack may have zero value as a legit, Topps issued unopened rack pack, but still holds some value for the cards it is holding within. |
It is funny how collectors keep going to the stinky well. Nobody is going to give good deals on rack packs value wise. Otherwise they would of just broken them up.
I can declare right now that i am taking random 1952 cards and making 'rack packs' and i can put in a mid grade andy pafko on the front in full view and a mid grade high number in full view and the rest commons that are in view. Then i can declare i need funds for medication or taxes or whatever and there are 'mystery 1952 cards' inside. (they could be low number or high numbers or just regular commons but no mantle of course)... and 100% real or money back and magically people will pay more than what a mid grade pafko and the mid grade high number would go for plus the 5-10$ a standard mid grade common would go for in the bidding and i just made money.. will be a sucker every time. of course when someone buys it..they may re-sell it and give some additional story and say they were packed in the 70s when high numbers were not that sought after etc so it could have more them as well...plus it does have a Pafko..so who knows what other great cards are there? Maybe theres a baritrome in there now? There would also be many net54 threads about whether its a good buy from that new seller.... |
Steve-- as noted above I tried to delve into these some to see if there was notable difference in what one could find in the "original" Murphy pack "find" and the current ongoing productions. Some folks say you tell the originals by staple or packaging type, but usually those are folks selling them.
I think the origin of these is an interesting hobby story but I have never been able to confirm that the originals were actually packaged back in the 60s and 70s as some claim ( which would make it more likely unseen cards might have some values, albeit in non mint condition) . But they showed up in 2001, where were they before that ? Murphy said he bought them through a 3d party he would not name, that they were repackaged by a 3d party he would not or could not name, and sold at retail at stores no one can recall. If someone has first hand knowledge of these actually being sold in retail stores back in the day, I would love to hear about it. My interest in them is not about value but their actual origin |
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Thanks Ben. ...for burning the evidence :)
Do you remember if it was late or early 80s and what city ? |
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So is the consensus that even the Mark Murphy ones are not legit either?
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Tim-- if by legit you mean the Murphy packs were put together in the 60s, 70s or even early 80s by someone who then tried to sell them in retail stores at Christmas time in some unspecified time frame, there is no hard or conclusive evidence that I know of to confirm that. Nor is it clear whether whoever is churning them out today is different from the original source. But there are some, usually people claiming to sell or resell the Murphy "originals", that claim the older packs are more likely to be "legit" in that they are more likely to contain star cards in the middle because of being packaged at a time the cards were less valuable. But no one claims they were packaged by Topps and all seem to agree the cards are second hand returns or handled stock in Ex condition at best.
There are sellers who claim that by examining the staples and configuration of the packaging you can tell the old from the new packs. That maybe true but I am not CSI enough to verify that. |
For $24k, he should walk the card up to Canada!
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Searching this site again, I seen some more info on these rack packs. http://www.1952toppsbaseballcards.co...ckPackPage.htm Anyone know who Robert Haimer is? |
The scary part about this all is the buyer isn't going to learn it's fake, if ever, until he opens the package and sends in the Mantle for grading, at which point good luck returning it.
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A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place. I'm not excusing the fraudster but there has to be an element of accountability on the part of the buyer. This is the eBay equivalent of an email from a Nigerian prince. Before plunking down that kind of money I'd do my homework because a quick search online would establish what a scam this is likely to be.
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I have to confess that if I saw them at goodwill for a few bucks I'd buy everyone they had. Maybe a losing lottery ticket but who knows.
Other than second and third and fourth hand knowledge, has anyone every bought one and taken it apart? After 500 posts on the subject over the years I still don't know if anyone knows a. are they all 100% counterfeit cards b. are they just repacked real cards and essentially fake retro items but in crappy shape c. or some mixture of fakes (rarer) and real (cheapos) Maybe I've missed it but I still have never seen that simple question definitively answered. |
I got smoked an a 56 rack a while back before there was more info in them. It had an Aparicio RC on top that graded a 7. The rest were ex commons.
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I bought a 58, haven't opened it. The cards showing are all real, and look pretty good as far as corners go. But have typical centering issues. There is a high number on the back, so it's not entirely junk.
Looking at the ones on Ebay, there's a few different types of packaging. I'd expect worse stuff from some of them, although I'd have to really study them to figure out which are fakes of the old repacks. |
I have been told the answer lies in the staples ;)
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Yes all were authentic. |
I have a 1961 one. I assume it's fake because when I purchased it - the guy "threw one in for free". (Total move to get a sucker to keep coming back I decided).
I sold the one I bought (broken even) and have the other one still. Can't decide whether to open it or just sell it for whatever I can get on Ebay and take a profit . So the analysis is opening it worth $75-100 on the off chance it is "real" (at least came from the 1960s/early 1970s)? Never been able to convince myself to open or sell it - so it just sits in a box! Cheers, Patrick |
Like any "unopened pack" whatever is in it could never be as good as what you hope might be in it :)
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I only have 1 unopened item. A 1986 Topps rack pack with the Roger Clemens Blue Streak error showing in the center. It is killing me not to rip it open because I know that elusive Terry Puhl Blue Streak error is in there.:eek: |
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Here's a 1958 rack pack being opened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-NpONNnjR8 1967 pack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfrK0x1tq0 This guy doesn't open any, but claims to have about 100 1952 pack and about 1,000 Christmas rack packs in all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3m0P4TbN8 |
CW-- no red dots on the 67 Mantle.
We needed a sample of the staples to carbon date it Ben --- pretty sure the Puhl is there, better open it He should not have made so many cuts, makes it harder to reseal |
I have a few 1962s. I've never opened any and only bought because they were cheap (nothing good showing). They aren't all the same header, staples or seal. I assume they are later packs, not from 60s or 70s.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
metalmania
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Well it's back on Ebay as an auction item. SHOCKING that Mantle is now most likely a reprint.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-...UAAOSw-5dZ9i19 |
The one negative the seller has is pretty funny
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And if a bidder were to read the fine print in the "Item Specifics" box they'd see that the seller is declaring this to be a "reprint" - fwiw...
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I've never understood the allure of the "Christmas" rack packs. If you are really into wax / unopened (I'm not...) why wouldn't you go for stuff known to be authentic?
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John---tend to agree with you but sad fact is that knowing what is authentic these days, be it wax packs or cello packs, is harder and harder to discern.
I have a Topps pack run ( some graded, some not) that I think is legit, but truth is I will likely never know for sure |
Christmas Rack Packs
I think that Christmas rack packs the majority if not all are faked.
Great idea to make a lot of money from vintage collectors. I would not buy one with your money. No grading company will grade or authenticate them. That should be a clue. |
Glen-- I could be tempted to buy one with "your" money :)
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Always tempted to buy a rack pack Xmas or not, or wax. But I'm always thinking about condition, off center or other. In the end the odds of finding something legit or real good are very low. 1955 bowman mantle aside.
So in the end i'll stay away. |
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Fun to me to peruse this thread again. I am far too skeptical of the Christmas Racks phenomena to ever spend a decent buck on them, but must admit I like / love the idea of them if even a small percentage were "real" and ever done like this back in the 1960's or 70's or at least before the hobby became fully self-aware in the mid-1980's. As a kid, there were always cards I pined after and (certainly in the days before the interwebs...) could literally never find simply because I was not old enough. In my example, I started collecting in 1986, and would always want a particular card from maybe the early 80's or even the late 70's that I had seen somewhere, but could never find for myself with limited resources and having to beg my folks to take me to a card shop. So I'm picturing how cool it would have been for a kid in 1965 to walk into a store and find a 1956 or 1960 Christmas rack with a Mantle showing on closeout... I guess we'll never know whether things like that actually happened or not...but if so I bet it made some kids really happy. :-) |
There's a different 1952 Christmas pack opening posted on YouTube with the Page/Sain error. If the cards are real that pack might have been worth getting.
You can watch the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmqRP6-HDM Any opinions on authenticity? |
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