Dentist classes via coupons reminds me of when I was in a lobby browsing a magazine for professional women that was filled for ads for vasectomy services and how to become a life coach courses. It confirmed my worst fears.

I did a pretty quick scan of the list. In the instance where Mastro is the shill, like on most Fritsch items...is the theory that Fritsch was involved, or that Mastro took it upon himself to shill...especially if he knew the bidder had deep pockets and interest, like Hal Steinbrenner?

In many cases a consignor seemed to have a common and designated shiller. But in the cases where Mastro is the shill, I'm just wondering if his greed is u fairly reflecting on a legit consignor...or if pretty much everyone on the Consignor/Shill list is a bad apple to be avoided.

Bravo!

And I would add a special raised middle finger to those gutless hypocrites who had friends bid with Mastro or Legendary Auctions for them while publicly decrying the fraud problem.

NO ONE deserves to be a victim of fraud or to be cheated period.
IMO if you continue to do business with people who you know are dishonest or have strong reason to believe are unsavory and find yourself a victim, the biggest thing you have to complain about is your lack of self-control.

Unless of course you're part of a group of stamp dealers that colluded over large lots offered at auction over several years AND were dumb enough to put the agreements in emails and/or written letters. Then fired an employee who wrote many of the emails and letters and who delivered copies to the authorities after his firing.


Yes, that actually happened and a number of people got into a lot of trouble.
http://www.ag.ny.gov/press-release/s...stamp-auctions

Done verbally between friends it's probably way too hard to prove in most cases.

I did however see it caught at a live auction. One bidder in the front row turned to his competition and said "let me have this one and you can have the next" Right within hearing of the auctioneer. :eek: The auctioneer stopped the auction, gave them a stern warning that he could lose his license and they could be arrested and that if they wanted to make deals they should do it outside before bidding. The the item was restarted at the former high bid with the offender getting credited for the next advance which he never made. The third bidder came in then, and got a quick thank you and the lot eventually sold for around $40 more.

Steve Birmingham

So, let me get this correct:

- Auction house owners don't want to have open reserves because it will look bad and hurt future business if any/many lots go unsold. So how does going to prison look for future business ventures?

- As for consignors, if I am to believe that they actually paid the BP for any of their items that they ended up being the high bidder on, how can it be a good business decision to pay 20% BP on your own item instead of letting it go for a little less than you had invested into it? I know it depends on which is greater, the BP or the loss? But if you "bought" your own item back, you still have it and have to try to sell it again later.

- For those caught this time, but only once, really? This is just the data for a single AH over just a 3 year period. Imagine if it were opened up to all AHs for the past 10-15 years? Just this once? Just like the drunk driver that was caught and he says, "this was the only time I drove drunk". Yeah right.

- Can you imagine what it would look like if you could get this type of information for eBay:eek::eek::eek:

With over 500 posts it's really clear to see that this stuff affects us all about getting ripped off. My opinion as far as the ones on the list from PSA coming on here and voicing there opinion on why they are on the list is slim to none. Anytime anything has come up involving PSA or JSA on anything I have never seen anyone come on and defend themselves. Which shows me they either don't care what people say on here as long as they are raking in money or they just think we are just a bunch or winers and it's not worth there time. Just my opinion. I have read 90% of the posts so if I missed one of them coming on then I appologize.

Right. There is some other prominent example too that I cannot think of. PS I have actually seen an email from a prominent collector to several other collectors who were bidding on similar items looking to allocate certain cards in an upcoming auction so they would not bid against each other. It probably happens with some degree of regularity.

Fair questions. I've stayed quiet on all this but I've decided to put in my 2 cents. As one of the older collectors in the hobby, I've been been bidding through auction houses for over 30 years. Yes, I've suspected shilling was taking place and hated it, but there were veteran collectors bidding, suspecting shilling yet continuing to bid because the final winning bid was a fair one, or even a good deal. So the answer to your question is, yes. I have won a number of cards through Mastro over the years and I know I paid too much, but sometimes you just gritted your teeth and accepted that you got what you wanted at a price you considered reasonable.
With regard to the names of the shilling list, I spotted names like Peter Calderon whom I consider a friend and whom I have always trusted and respected and others that I consider hobby friends who I have had private selling experiences with that were good and fair transactions. I also saw a few others who I considered to be arrogant a@@holes whom I disliked for their attitudes and lack of character. and anyone who knows me well knows exactly who I am talking about. I had no surprise seeing their names pop up on the lists. A real mixed bag.
As far as the post about the collector who taught the students about card collecting and the hobby, my suggestion would be to quickly point out the true hobbyists and collectors who are absolutely great people, great to know, great to deal with, and great people in general. I have met (many in person, many more through Net54 and its predecessors) so many collectors and collector/dealers and dealers over the past 30 years that I know they are the backbone of the hobby. All ages, all backgrounds, all over our country. Tell your students about them. They are the REAL reason the hobby survives.
Finally with regard to SGC, I am one of those collectors who was sickened by the Forman revelations, not because I expected more from him, but because I have a huge number of pre-war cards in SGC holders. I always liked the customer service, the way the cards were displayed in the holders and what I felt was more accurate grading of the cards than other TPG companies. If SGC goes away, I'll still have the cards (and I always bought my cards for the cards not the holders anyway) and they will still mean the same to me, even if the prices might dip without the company in existence anymore. I also have a large number of PSA cards and I always knew that a PSA 5 would bring more than an SGC 60 in the pre-war market but that's life.
Finally, I realize that there were different reasons for the shilling, sometimes it was out of business greed, sometimes because of events like divorces which eliminated collections and forced sales, friendships, etc., but it still didn't justify it. For those who posted and explained why, I'm willing to accept it and go on, we all make mistakes. But it wasn't right.
Cheers
Bob M.

Let's simplify this
 

It isn't rocket science. It becomes real when they start naming names.

Realize the list is after the evidence was shredded and represents couple of years worth of auctions about 8 years ago. I seem to remember getting those catalogs all the way back in the 1990's. If you think this didn't happen before and after those dates and still happens every week on eBay, stick your head back in the sand. It would be scary to get that information from eBay across the last 20 years.

Also, for the group that says "I don't have a problem with that". It distorts pricing across the whole market.

At the end of most auctions, that email goes out stating "over X million sold". Or "highest price ever for X". They have a vested interest in higher sales. The grading companies, same thing. PSA XXX sold for some new high...

It is a thinly transacted market (pre war). Some cards may have 1's or 10's data points a year (or less) of pricing data points (I don't have a membership to VCP but that would be an interesting stat to gather on the # of data points/year for some of the commonly shilled items).

Paying a BP (on a shill in the scenarios provided earlier) to get a 50%-100% bump in price makes perfect sense when the market always goes up and you could protect your investment to sell higher later.

Does everything always sell for more, no. I've had mixed results. I would expect that. But I don't have friends protecting my investment.

Does it happen 100% of the time, no. But it is much wider than the glimpse that was provided in that list.

Will it stop me from bidding on cards, no. So ultimately, it won't stop until all the money stops flowing on cards at AH or brokers on eBay that are even suspected of participating. This information is years old and Legendary was still getting lots of activity and high prices all the way to the end.

My two cents... It has been a fascinating read...

Rich McGillicuddy