Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations
 

It's anonymous so please be candid.

Not seeing the poll, Peter.

Never mind...

I'm done with those guys. No need to feel anonymous.

I doubt many here will agree with my point of view publicly but I have not seen any direct evidence of PWCC's involvement besides the acknowledgment of the relationship with Moser and a few cards supposedly bought using their Ebay ID that were later conserved and resold.

I am bidding in their current auction.

The first time I wanted to sell a few cards but didn't know how to go about it ir even whether or not to use a 3rd party or AH. I did some research on my own, talked to a few members here, and decided to send them to PWCC. I was pleased overall with the results and even pleasantly surprised by a few of them. They have received every card I've consigned since. Except for a couple I didn't want to auction.

Unless some direct evidence comes to light implicating them I don't see that changing in the near future.

Excerpt from a 2008 email from Brent in an exchange about why he was selling cards for Gary.

"I'm not ignorant, and I know what Gary does for a living..."

To paraphrase Paul Simon, a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest. The willful blindness here is truly astounding. I do hope you haven't been burned in your past dealings and don't get burned in your future ones. Or maybe if your cards are altered you don't care, I don't know. If a decade long relationship with a man who appears to have altered cards to the tune of millions of dollars doesn't do much for you, then nothing will, not even the email I posted, you'll just spin that too. But hell if someone can believe Sandy Hook didn't happen, anything is possible in this crazy world.

I am not convinced that any AH has refused to accept consignments from all known or suspected card doctors in the past. I assume they all have accepted them at one point or another. Perhaps they knew and perhaps they didn't. But in the end I don't think it matters. Ban one name and someone will find a way to submit under another.

None of that has anything to do with your statement about direct evidence about PWCC. You're changing the topic.

Both points are relevant. The email you posted proves Brent knew what Moser did for a living. Assuming the email was from him. It doesn't even prove that Moser was submitting under his own name. Not to mention that anyone at pwcc knew of specific cards being altered or that they were directly involved in the alterations and grading as others have alleged.

I answered yes I would keep buying in their auctions.

PWCC is just an EBAY auction house to me. They have consistently gotten the best cards and if the cards leave them I will go there. I have had nothing but very positive dealings with them and while I mindful of what is happening around me I have no interest in blocking myself from the market.

The bank officer is held up at gunpoint and tells the gunman, “Go ahead and shoot. If you don’t kill me, the next bank robber will. I have no evidence that either gun isn’t loaded.”

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

I agree with you there, it will definitely be interesting and there are lots of aspects to it. And there is no question there are many culpable parties in this mess, but in my opinion that doesn't excuse a specific culpable party.

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

I never bought from these guys before because they're winning bids were so high, and there was a lot of talk about shilling. But now, with all the negative publicity certain to scare off at least some of their customers, I'm looking at their auctions and trying to find some low grade or undergraded bargains.

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

Many of these cards that were outed simply had something removed from the card. If the card doctors are skilled enough to remove a stain with no trace, what is there to detect? These cards shouldn't be in the conversation at all. Unless you have a problem with those doing the altering.

Cards that were trimmed, recolored, or rebuilt (corners) are the issue. How was this not detected? Especially on modern cards that should all measure 2.5 by 3.5. These are the cases were it seems clear fraud was committed. And someone at the grading company has either been paid off or they're just incompetent. These cards shouldn't just slip through the cracks. But again, once they're graded how is the auction house supposed to know? They don't spend hours looking through every similar card sold previously. They don't have the benefit of before and after scans.

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?

I agree there are lots of places that need focus, absolutely, but that doesn't minimize the role of a major ebay seller knowingly enabling a card doctor, in my always humble opinion. And no he is not the only one by any stretch, but he's put himself in the crosshairs by all the good for the hobby stuff and complete hypocrisy, and the paper trail, so he will reap what he sowed, or should anyhow.

You want evidence? He was disproportionately stickering Moser cards and recommending that people like the 52 Bowman Musial guy buy them. To the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

By the way I suspect we have not heard the last of all the modern trimmed stuff sold through PWCC either.

If there was truly something that crossed the legal line in this Moser / PWCC relationship and they were in it together I think there would be some proof short of video evidence. Payments, emails back and forth. If Brent was buying cards, sending them to Moser to doctor, then sending them into PSA directly to be graded, and finally selling them on his own site there would be some kind of evidence left behind. Especially if it's been going on for a decade or more. Something coming out along these lines would convince me.

My guess is that at best PWCC looked the other way when taking these consignments and didn't ask which cards were altered. And I also assume this was not unique to PWCC, but was going on everywhere to one degree or another. I realize that if I'm proven wrong I'll never hear the end of it. And that could happen. I just don't see it at this point.

Looking the other way knowing damn well who you're dealing with, and then recommending people buy the cards as investments, would be more than enough for me, and I assume for most people.

Would you feel the same way if he was taking cards from someone he knew to be the best counterfeiter in the hobby? Oh, but he didn't know that specific card was counterfeit, they didn't discuss it. So what?

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

pwcc poll
 

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

In that situation, much like this one, I would be concerned with the guys producing, growing, transporting, etc. Escobar, El Chapo, than i would be the guys selling 20 bags on the street. But that's different because no one could unknowingly sell an 8 ball. Everyone involved knows they're breaking the law.

But should some of these drugs even be illegal? That's an issue for another discussion.

I'd also be much more concerned with someone becoming a billionaire by convincing doctors across the country to get people hooked on oxy than a doctor who wrote a few too many scripts.

Go to the source if you want to fix the problem.

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Again, Brent has admitted knowing he was selling altered cards for Gary. This is not in controversy. I think the case against each other seller would have to depend on the facts. I strongly suspect many of them knew exactly what they were doing, and in at least one other case of an AH I have had that conversation, but I don't have the same level of evidence nor has the same overwhelming circumstantial evidence yet been uncovered.

Yes.

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

I guess emails aren't proof these days.

You can't fix either stupid or willful ignorance. Now, I just want to know who they are so I can avoid them.

As unscientific as the poll is, I am encouraged that the number saying they will stop is twice as large as the number saying they will continue.

A wise man once said


Stuff trumps all


Please dont come crying here, or to PSA when a majority of your "best cards" are proven altered or suspect. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Amirite? I, for one, wont feel the least bit sad for you. Me thinks "the best stuff", "investment grade", "eye appeal", "highest prces" "sparkly stickered: are 75% altered or shilled. Qo der how the pwcc fan boys are sleeping at night.

Whoever that was knew what he was talking about.:eek:

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

If you're the kind of person who passes judgement on others before the facts are out, and have a problem with me stating my opinion on this forum, than I would prefer not to do business with you either. My Ebay ID is the same as it is here. Block it. I won't lose any sleep over your decision.

I've had several successful transactions wwith no issues here and other places. I will find a place to buy and sell my cards when the need arises.

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

Excellent. I will do that. I think you are a moron.

Have you read any of my posts savaging Sloan's response, by the way? If not read them and come back and make the absurd suggestion that I am not just as focused on PSA.

Kenny, how do ad hominem attacks advance your argument?

They don't. But if you read the posts, I think you might come to the same conclusion.

This reminds me of the news headline we have all seen over and over again....

“Lots of citizens announce they are preparing to move out of the country if _______ elected President”.

Yeah sure. And you know how many of them follow through and move out of the country? None of them.

Huge chasm between the chest thumping of what people say they are going to do and what people eventually end up doing.

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. The old addage of buy the card not the holder applies.

Maybe I’m a broken down pathetic beyond the pale cynic, but Im guessing there are probably people out there crapping all over PWCC hoping that the nonstop negative publicity has the effect of suppressing interest (and sale prices) in upcoming auctions.

maybe

100%
 

If you have been around long enough before the TPGs AND if you have dealt with cards your entire life and have dealt honorably and had an eye for "off" cards then you buy cards in holders that you KNOW are not tampered with. There will be many bargains soon because so many naysayers are scared of everything.

I for one love the fact that folks will boycott certain sellers. More goodies for me.

Show some confidence in your abilities to detect "off" cards. Damn. I've been spotting doctored cards in TPGs for years. Many years before this "storm".

I will say that SGC has always been very good at spotting "off" cards. So have I.

Buy the card, not the holder. Are there any confident collectors left?

Peace, Mike

I can detect many off cards, but especially without the ability to see the edges, there is NFW I can detect some of the work of the superstar card doctors, and I am skeptical most people if anybody can. Are you seriously saying that without the before pics you can find the flaws in every card that's been outed on BO?

Fool me once...

It's your money man...Have at it.

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

Mike, have you happened to notice Gary's affinity for 48 Leafs? Just saying. Probably his favorite set.

I think anyone who reads my posts knows I was done with PWCC a long time ago. :mad:

Your analogy would be better if that were even remotely true.

Despite the mob mentality that has taken over this site against PWCC long before this scandal hit, I trust that when most members read your posts and mine it will be clear who lacks intelligence, even if they disagree with my opinion on this issue.

There is no mob mentality. There are people who are fed up with fraud. Big difference. To try to demean those people by mischaracterizing them as a mob is only to demean yourself. As for Kenny, to suggest he lacks intelligence is beneath you, Jesse.

ROTFL. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and hopefully never interact again. At this point that would probably be best.

Here is a morbid and sad story but perhaps better analogy. 25 years ago today Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally killed. I’m now a group of 12 people we’re not able to find OJ guilty.

Some people just refuse to believe in anything they didn’t see happen no matter what the evidence.

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

I basically stopped activities with PWCC when the 2016 "buyers group" / shilling issues came to my attention and I received corroboration of what was being done by PWCC.

I can't be 100% sure that I have not purchased anything from them since that time without checking my records, but I am sure I haven't bought anything significant from them.

As for consigning, my last consignment was probably in 2014.

As an aside, the OJ thing really hurt me. I grew up in SoCal and was a huge OJ fan when he was at USC. My folks took me to the 1969 Rose Bowl where OJ was great and no one else at USC was. I was 8. When we played backyard football, whoever was the RB was OJ; the defender was either Deacon Jones or Butkus, depending on where you played. The QB was generally Roman Gabriel, maybe Unitas. Watching that white Bronco chase was pretty bad. Did you know that Willie Mays mentored him? I didn't until not too long ago, but that is what I've read. Evidently it didn't take all that well.

In any event, much as I would like to deny it, the evidence was pretty damning. He had really good lawyers and, as Peter said, the prosecution screwed a fair amount of stuff up. Judge Ito was also not up to the task. I watched a lot of that trial as a young lawyer. Doesn't matter, he was found not guilty of murder, which IMO is exactly why he was later hammered in Nevada. What goes around comes around I guess. Karma or something.

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

Yeah. You don't do stuff in trial unless you know its going to work. I saw that firsthand when I second chaired (or maybe third -- there were two of us who were young lawyers from the same class) a trial that involved a kid who got blown up and sustained 3rd degree burns over 78% of his body and lived. It was amazing. Walton v. Black & Decker. Greg Walton is now a plastic surgeon, which is also amazing. In any event, the defense in that case had basically three defenses and did an in-court demonstration to prove how what we said couldn't possibly have happened. Instead, it destroyed them and proved our case. Ed Abel, my senior partner at the time, was the most brutal cross-examiner I still have ever seen. He just killed the defense expert to the point that the jury was laughing at him whenever he answered a question. It was ugly.

Ten million dollar verdict in 1989, all of which was collected. Wish I'd had a bigger part of that case. But I didn't. Life goes on.

OK well all of that said, couldn’t PWCC and PSA/CLCT have good lawyers, and whoever is going after them could swing and miss, and the whole thing could blow over like past scandals?

Somehow in the face of the scandal the stock is up.

Also the survey shows we at Net54 are not representative of the common collector because PWCC continues to have successful auctions (surely there’s no shilling in their auctions.

Good point. Why would you buy from someone who says they got their cards from PWCC.

That the provenance doesn't bother a buyer "ain't worth a hill of beans" when he turns to try to sell to collectors who do care about that provenance. And many collectors will consider the provenance a reflection on the seller's general ethics and care about authenticity. Irrelevant to the authenticity, "I got my autographs from Coach's Corner" isn't a good selling point or a good look for a seller.

Based on what I've seen over the years well before this scandal I disagree. Anything involving pwcc gets blown out of proportion in my opinion. People seem to enjoy piling on with whatever the current issue is. I do understand why guys are worked up over this scandal. But directing all or most of the anger at pwcc strikes me as a mob mentality.

As for Kenny I have rarely encountered intelligent people who need to resort to calling another person a noron over a difference of opinion. He may be a genius for all I know I don't remember reading any post from him before today. But from this limited sample size I stand by my assessment.

You obviously are reading threads/posts selectively. There is major anger directed at PSA and Gary and card doctors. And as for PWCC, people are appalled, there is no enjoyment in it whatever and there never has been. Labeling someone you disagree with as a "mob" is a classic tactic of a demagogue but I won't get any more political other than to say read the newspapers. Maybe the reason they have had so many issues over the years is that they were in the wrong.

The problem for me is no matter what corner of the hobby I turn to to buy stuff there's fraud. I've been burned buying at shows, in online auctions, at the National, and from multiple ebay sellers. Fraud in this hobby is EVERYWHERE. It's too easy, and the odds of actually getting caught and going to jail are slim.

What I wonder is how you can be a long time member of this forum, having seen all the fraud over the years with autographs, shill bidding, etc. and STILL participate in it if you're as upset with this latest episode as you claim to be? What's it going to take to finally turn you away? I don't mean this to sound snarky, but, seriously, if this stuff upset me like it seems to upset many of you, I'd go collect barbed wire - people do, you know.

Here's a fun exercise for anyone going to the National this year. Ask for a receipt when you buy something. You'd think something that costs $1000 would at least warrant a receipt, wouldn't you? The answer tells you all you need to know about this hobby.

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

Suppose I won't buy from PWCC but will submit to PSA. Or vice versa? Which answer do I choose? David you're being ridiculous. Stop. Start your own poll.

You're being ridiculous. You say this...

... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law pertaining to sentences (at least), there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong ie... Specific Intent. And I think PSA needs to step up their game a whole lot.

Yes, that does say it all, also if you pay in cash I can give you a discount(wink/wink).

The problem is saying nothing has led us to this point in the hobby. People need to be loud and hopefully get rid of some of the scum in the hobby.

I honestly can't figure out how anyone that loves the hobby can't be happy about having less fraud, unless they are part of it.

As for the poll, I have been avoiding anything PWCC for many many years and see no reason to change now.

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

I didn't say that. Brent has always told me he thought trimming was wrong and adding anything to a card was wrong.

QED. He knew what Gary did, trust me. Was he alone? No, not at all, many people did and do the same thing, to some extent for Gary and for many other card doctors. But that doesn't excuse Brent. He knowingly sold altered cards for money. He knew it was wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that.

Why you are sniping at someone doing his best to criticize fraud in the hobby we all presumably love is beyond me at this point, David.

I should add Leon that you really would be best advised not to continue to make pronouncements about what you think the law is. Do you think for example that Robin Hood would have been excused from the crime of stealing because he thought it was the right thing to do?

Not knowing right from wrong is an insanity defense but otherwise it's not the issue for intent.

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

Gary.