What's the real deal with these Cuban cards?
 

There are four of these supposed 1911-1915 Romeo Y Julieta baseball cards on Ebay now, but several voices have already come out against this seller and these cards as being fake on his Ebay listing itself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CUBAN-CIGAR-...item2a38bf0ac0

Can anyone fill us in on the backstory here?

I can add some info on Romeo y Julieta ["RyJ"]. The company is known for a pair of mid-1920s boxing issues as well as some nonsports movie cards. The front format of the cards on eBay roughly matches with a rare boxing issue:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0positions.jpg

Here is the principal boxing issue:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0y%20J%201.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0y%20J%204.jpg

The cards are real photo, so there should be signs of silvering and very difficult to duplicate photographic age on them. Backs are found with black or [very rare] brown printing. There are tone variations among the cards with some sepia and some grayer. Also, there is a pretty good variance in size.

I have no idea who the seller is, so no opinion there. Is there another thread on these?

In terms of potential for discoveries, I do a lot of research on Latin American boxing cards and new issues surface seemingly every year. Last year two Cuban tobacco boxing issues popped up. New cards also surface periodically from established sets, most of which cannot be definitively checklisted.

There are two or three guys here I can think of on this board who have even more experience than me or anyone else in the world handling RyJ cards. Ryan Christoff is one of them. The others may not be 'out' so I won't mention names, but certainly any of them could examine these cards and give a pretty solid opinion on whether they are consistent with the genuine RyJ issues.

Seller of r&j basebal card in ebay about authenticity of them
 

Hello, I am the seller of the Romeo & Julieta card in Ebay. About the authenticity of them. I know nothing about baseball cards. I never saw Nacionales as somebody named Manni told me. But I contacted the biggest collector in the island to revised the cards inmediatly I bough them. Now I returned to his house and tell him what some people are saying about the cards. He confirmed again that the cards are original. I show in this post know some other cards in his collection, including other two issues of R&J cards that he found about 15 years ago. He told me that Ryan saw those cards in his house about 5 years ago and he was very surprised. He told me that anybody who has doubt about who is him can ask RYAN, can ask to Cesar Lopez, the owner of CUBANBALL. All of them know that he has the biggest collection of Cuban baseball cards, that he is working in the book about Cuban baseball cards. I show pictures of him with some of even more rarest cards of his collection. Rolando is a very serious people, he told me that he was who discovered the fakes in a lot of Cuban baseball cards, he was the source for many years to all the American who came to Cuba to buy this kind of item. I show 1 photo of him with Monte Irving and this is a good history to you: he asked Monte "Which is your rookie card?. Irving respond: "it is the Topps" and Rolando show him the album that Monte is seen in the photo with the Cuban EL INDIO card that was issued before TOPPS card. You can see in the photos others very rare cards CIGARS EL JUNTO, J.L. PIEDRA. DIHIGO CAMPO ALEGRE, LA MALLORQUINA (POP LLOYD), some PUNCH, GENER (ADOLFO LUQUE). NOW YOU HAVE INFORMATION TO OPEN MORE POST ABOUT OTHER RARE CUBAN BASEBALL CARD. NOW EVERYBODY WILL KNOW that the person who know more about Cuban baseball cards is not in UNITED STATES. HIS NAME IS ROLANDO SANCHEZ and he live in CUBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Love the album.

More about rare cuban baseball card from rolando collection
 

One more time. I am not an expert. But Rolando is an expert. I just buy and sell Cuban items. I don't made fakes. I found the cards together with other cards. If you want pictures of the album where the cards were found I can add them to the forum.

Just a quick question. You said in your post you went to his house to ask him again about the cards after questions arose. But on eBay it says that your location is Spain. You said the gentleman lives in Cuba. Just wondering about the disparity between the location of the cards, your location, and the man in Cuba.

I'll post my opinion about these shortly, but are you sure Rolando is okay with you posting pictures of him on the internet? As you know, he lives in CUBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA and has always been more discreet than that.

-Ryan

I agree. Paraphrasing is one thing but posting quotes and pictures from a personal message is a bit out of bounds. There's a reason why people are reluctant to share hobby information.

He agree because he know you want to control the market
 

Rolando know what i am doing. I am in spain but my husband and my partner is in cuba. I wrote for them and for me. Rolando gave me permission to talk about him. You can call him. You know he is discret person, you know he is serius and you, ryan know that cards are originals. Don't try to occult to the peopleo your first source in cuba. Do you think you are cabron? Yes you are

Rolando give me his permission
 

HE WANT TO KNOW PEOPLE IN UNITED STATE KNOW THAT HE EXIST. I ASK HIM FOR HELP BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY (NOT RYAN OR ANY OTHER) THAT CAN TELL IF THE CARDS ARE ORIGINAL. OTHER PERSON WHO WROTE ME TO CONFIRMED THAN THE CARD ARE ORIGNAL IS LUIS MUÑOZ. I am sure that after Rolando he is the other who now more about Cuban baseball cards. he live in United States and I collectors know who he is. Other who know who Rolando is is CESAR LOPEZ, the owner of the site cubanball. Rolando gave me persimission to tell that he was the source for some cards in that site. You can see in the site who they gave thanks to ROLANDO SANCHEZ

Tomorrow at 3.00 o clock rolando will be here in the post
 

Tomorrow at 3.00 o clock rolando will be here in the post.ryan or any other that think he don't want to be public or justwant to talk with him alive, he will be here at that time. He will go to my husband house in habana, and he will be with him in the computer. Ryan, let me know now, what will you say?

Again rolado now about ryan
 

I just talk with rolando by phone. He said that ryan is a very prestigius expert and that he is sure from now than ryan will say that cards are originals. He say that ryan know the cards are originals , that he can't put in game his reputation telling than cards are not originals. Anyway tomorrow at 3.00 o clock, rolando will be in the forum to peopleo who think that i am using him and the he don't want to be public, as ryan said

I love old Cuban cards. this story has me confused though.

+1

Can PSA or SGC determine they are original? That would put an awful lot of pointless discussion to rest.

3:00 what time zone?

Why ryan is waiting to write his opinion?
 

Some people travel to Cuba, get Cuban baseball cards in cheap prices, they try to control the market, same people wrote directly to sellers in ebay to try to buy good items. Those people say some cards are fakes to control the market. Same people say his opinion one day before an auction close because they know cards are good and they want to buy them. But the time of this kind of people is near to the end. One of this people is MANNY who wrote me in Ebay, he used to go to Cuba to buy cards. I don't want to mention more names. Just think: why don't write his opinion if he know tha the cards are goods. Rolando will be ready tomorrow to talk with Ryan ore any other tomorrow. NOBODY CAN CONTROL THE MARKET, THIS IS A FREE WORLD.

No disrespect to the TPG's but these guys know more than they do about Cuban cards.

WHAT I HAVE TO DO TO SEND THE CARD TO PSA? please help
 

can I send the cards to PSA from Spain?

Cuba isn't free.

Yeah, I was afraid of that. I put all of my trust in Ryan C. It also has to be a precarious position to judge a card not in hand. :(

How about we let Rolando speak for himself? If he wants people to know who he is, he doesn't need anyone else to do it for him, but I can say a few words to help introduce him. For anyone who doesn't know, Rolando Sanchez is the world's leading authority on Cuban baseball cards. No one has had more Cuban baseball cards pass through their hands than Rolando, including myself. I've done a lot of business with Rolando in the past and would not have the collection I have today were it not for him. I've been to his house several times and seen some of the cards in person that are posted in those pictures above. I trust his opinion, and if Rolando says the cards are real, that is good enough for me. If ROLANDO says it. Not someone saying Rolando says it.

However, I have some very specific doubts about them that perhaps Rolando can address. There are some red flags here. My doubts are more about the 4 Almendares cards than the amateur cards, but I do have some doubt on the whole group. It's possible they're real, though. Without seeing them in person, it is much harder for me to tell. It sounds like more will be revealed tomorrow at 3:00 in some time zone.

-Ryan

Not freedom is good to people who use and abuse of the cubans
 

Not freedom is good to peopleo who use and abuse of the cubans buying cards in 20 and selling them in 2000

Tomorrow at 3.00 rolando will be here, ryan
 

We will be wainting for you. Can we use a web cam in this site?

So you bought these for $20?

If we don't have a cam prepare some questions about cuban card that only rolando can
 

Respond, that will be the proof that it will be rolando himself and not me taling by him. Ana

By the way, you could also have Rolando send me an email if he'd rather communicate that way.

-Ryan

Ryan, i am cuban, not american like you
 

Ryan i am cuban, not american like you and i paid good half of the price that i put in auction

Ryan, not problem with you. Please let me know
 

If you want he write you tomorrow early and my husband will be for him in the morning to he write you and in the afternoon if you want him in the forum. Not problem for it. Please confirm it.

About your nickname, you know what it means?
 

About your nickname, you know what it means?. This is not a good world in spanish, for cuban is not good to be a cabron. Cabron is the people who try to take adventages of the others. Not good people. I think you should change it

I always thought it meant assh*le?

Is there a translation for "seller of fake cards"?

And for the record, I've never sold anything for $2,000 that I bought for $20. The days of people paying pennies on the dollar for Cuban cards in Cuba were before I ever went there. I was the one paying the $2,000.

-Ryan

I know you don't pay cheap price i am talking of others
 

I know you don't pay cheap price i am talking of others. You came in the times of 12 000 for a billiken album

Rolando will write you in the morning. It is confirmed
 

And at 3.00 pm east time in the forum

I am not talking about you i know you paid good prices for cuba
 

But it is not good price for united states. But it is good for the cubans, i know , ryan, you paid top price in cuba.

I look forward to hearing from Rolando. He would be a great asset to Net54 if he able to post every now and then. I know that might be difficult and not very practical. Or safe. Again, he can contact me privately if he'd prefer. I'm happy to post anything he'd like me to. I live in COLORADOOOOOOOOO, so I'll be snowboarding tomorrow morning/afternoon, but I'll respond here on the forum as soon as I get the chance.

Thanks,

-Ryan

Ryan i called rolando again
 

HE SAID THAT HE WILL WRITE CESAR, HE LOOSED YOUR E MAIL. I THINK I HAVE YOUR E MAIL FROM YOUR SITE. HE SAID I TOLD YOU THAT THE PERSON FROM WHO HE WROTE YOUR IN THE PAST IN IN UNITED STATES. THAT HIS ENGLISH IS NOT GOOD. IF YOU CAN CALL CESAR AND TOLD HIM THAT CALL ROLANDO, THIS IS THE PHONE NUMBER 536427533, AS THEY CAN TALK IN SPANISH, IS MORE EASY TO THEM. THANKS VERY MUCH. RYAN, I AM VERY SORRY FOR MY POSITION WITH YOU. I READ ROLANDO WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT HIM IN THE FORUM AND HE IS VERY HAPPY. REGARDS
ANA and ERNESTO

My promise i will help rolando to collaborate with net54
 

If other peopleo have questions about cuban baseball cards that they want i translate to rolando, i will help with that and put his answers in the forum. My husband live in cuba and can talk with him every day.

If you prefer other time to talk with rolando let me know
 

LET ME KNOW IF YOU PREFER OTHER TIME TOMOROW AND I will change the date with him.

I'm not calling Cesar. Rolando can email me through Leonardo, or call Luis Munoz, who is a good friend of mine.

-Ryan

I don't know why, but I am highly entertained by this thread.

Yeah, it's kind of like one of those I Love Lucy episodes where they go to Cuba to meet Ricky's wacky family...

Plus, let's face it, we all have fantasies as collectors of finding something vintage, rare and unknown. It is part of what makes this fun.

Rolando wrote you, ryan.
 

Ryan, my husband just called Rolando in Cuba to tell him that you want you write Luis Munos, it is 9.00 a.m in Cuba. He said that he wrote you yesterday an e mail to you and Cesar Lopez. He said that as a proof that is he, he sent you an e mail from you from 2002. He said that he wrot you to an e mail tha is something like "allvacation" or other thing like that.
Ana

Rolando is here with me
 

Hello, Ryan, Rolando IS here, give me your phone to hi call you or you can him to 5352786403. I am waiting for the Luis number

HELLO, we are here. why you don't repond
 

Rolando is here, you can called him. he wrote you yesterday. Give us your e mail or your phone.

OK. I will start off since Ryan is snowboarding.

What can Rolando tell me about the following card sets?

Romeo y Julieta: Below are pictures of the typical [brown borders] card, a white borders card, and a card with a graphic image of ring ropes with the fighter. Any idea why these were made differently?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0Goldstein.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...hite%20var.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ring%20var.jpg

Can he give me any information on this card? It is about the size of a postcard:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0Chocolate.jpg

How about this card? Is it a genuine Cuban issue?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0Royal%201.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0Royal%202.JPG

I'm here. I should be in the mountains enjoying a powder day, but I am here instead. My number is (303)829-1995. My email is my first name at cubanbaseballcards.com. But I thought Rolando was going to post here on the forum.

-Ryan

These two cards showed up about 2 years ago. Anything he can tell me about this set?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...empsey%201.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...s%20Tunney.jpg

HELLO ANYBODY CAN CALL RYAN. Rolando is waiting here for him
 

HELLO ANYBODY CAN CALL RYAN. Rolando is waiting here for him.

Adam,

Would you mind if we deal with the issue of these Romeo y Julieta cards first and then get answers to your boxing cards? I'm sure Rolando can answer your questions. I just don't want to get too far off topic.

-Ryan

Here are some large photographic premiums. Any information on these? How many in the set? When were they issued? Who else is in the set?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Premium.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Antonio.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Uzcudun.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ey%20Risko.JPG

Sure. I was just filling in the time between her call for you to respond to your response.

About the boxing cards
 

Rolando said than the are very good. One of the people in the photo of many persons is the trainging of Chocolate, PINCHO GUTIERREZ. about the SOL he said than they are very rare and want to know if it is a big card?

WORD FROM ROLANDO he talk with ryan
 

He said card are originals. That he never saw before the almendares cards from 1911 and 1915 but he guaranteed that they are originals. He check the gelatin of photos and any other things. Rolando don't speak english but he talk with ryan direclty by phone and he will write you.

About the turquino boxing cards
 

HE NEVER SAW THEM in his life. But that not means than they are fakes. He love the Dempsey card.

Rolando tell me this i will post in spanish to ryan and others
 

Yo he visto esas postales con anterioridad en el set del 1922 y tengo dos o tres en mi coleccion. Sobre las postales del 1911 y 1915 no las habia visto antes. Pero no tuve nunca dudas desde el momento que las vi y despues de revisar con detenimiento el papel y el plateado de la foto de que son completamente originales. lAS POSTALES ROMEO Y JULIETA INCLUYENDO LAS DE 1922 SON MUY DIFICILES DE ENCONTRAR. Las de boxeo son un poco mas faciles de ver.

Translation:

I've seen those postcards in the set before 1922 and have two or three in my collection. About postcards 1911 and 1915 had not seen before. But I never had doubts from the moment I saw them and after carefully reviewing the role and silver photo that are completely original. ROMEO AND JULIET POSTCARDS INCLUDING THOSE OF 1922 ARE VERY HARD TO FIND. The boxing are a little easier to see.

The SOL is postcard sized.

Okay, I just got off the phone with Rolando and Ernesto. My Spanish is horrible, so it was difficult communicating. I will relay some of what was discussed here. I will also post some of my questions.

I will start by saying that Rolando says the cards are real. He has the cards in front of him and he should be able to tell. I do not believe Rolando would have anything to do with buying, producing, or selling fake cards. So that is a strong point for the "real" side. He has one or two of the amateur players in his collection. I saw them in person over 10 years ago. So at this point, I'm fairly comfortable with the amateur players, which are from the 1920s are probably real. I say "probably" because I am not looking at them in person and can not definitely say they're real without having them in my hands. The amateur player cards makes sense to me because they would have been issued right around the same time as the boxing cards. Cuban baseball cards almost never have stats on the reverse. In fact, none of the cards from the 1920s and earlier do. The fact that the amateur ones have stats makes sense, though, because the Romeo y Julieta boxing cards have stats (W-L record, number of KOs, etc.) on them. So that fits. For the amateur cards.

What I still have doubts about are the 4 Almendares cards. All 12 of these cards were allegedly found together. There were 8 amateur cards and 4 professionals, all of them on Almendares. Actually, only 3 are players and one is a trainer. The amateur cards appear to be from 1922. Are we saying that the Almendares cards were also produced in 1922? If so, why do the backs say 1915 and 1911? An even bigger question is why are all 4 images taken directly from each player's 1910 Punch cards? This really makes no sense to me.

Or, are we saying that the 4 Almendares cards were produced 10 years earlier than the amateur cards, but happen to look exactly like them and were discovered in the same group as them? Were "Romeo y Julieta" and "Punch" both part of the same parent company? If not, why would Romeo y Julieta be using the Punch images?

I have several other questions, comments and observations, but I'll stop here for now and wait for these questions to be answered.

-Ryan

Rolando said that they are originals
 

I will post a photo of me and Rolando talking with Ryan. Rolando confirmed Ryan than the cards are originals. He said than the Romeo y Julieta cards are very rare. The boxing cards are easier to find. He have in his collection two or 3 cards from the set of 1922 . And although ne never saw the 1911 and 1915 cards he guaranteed with his reputation than they are originals He said that this will be enough to Ryan. He said that he truth in him. He will write you directly to Ryan now.

Another Cuban piece, a PC that looks like it was used to promote a fight and was signed by Kid Chocolate to Cuco Conde:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...aphed%20PC.jpg

These I believe are cut from matchboxes:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...fOex__60_3.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ack%20Bill.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Maloney.jpg

I know, too much stuff, but how often do you get the chance?

Last one [for now] is this

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0Fernandez.JPG

Rolando revised them now and he said that is
 

very logic what you said. maybe they are from same set because the print in the back I just opened the cubanball.com he added other romeo y julieta cards FROM SAME set of 1911--1915. bUT he don't think they used stadistics of 1911 or 1915 in e print of 1922

Dude, start a separate thread about all that stuff. You'll still get answers.

-Ryan

Understood. I will stop photo-bombing the thread.

Unless Google Translate is off, in the Spanish post I translated above, Rolando mentioned Romeo y Julieta "postcards." I have two real photo postcards from the era that look to be made with Romeo y Julieta art. They are in terrible condition and I am not sure if I have a scan. Are there legit 1920s postcards made with the RyJ art or is that a misread?

Rolando confirmed cards are originals
 

Ryan, I don't want to sell the cards to him. I have found other cards and I sell them in Ebay In the past I found the Aguilitas and I sold them in Ebay. Rolando is here yet. he said that he would like to buy them for me. He is smiling but he know he can not buy them from me. Thanks very much for your interest. He said agree with you about the same image used in the punch cards. hE SAID than they are other example of this as the CALLUP and PHOTOS issued that used same images. Maybe they used images from SPORT ASSOCIATION. he can not said the year of the 1911 and 1915 card but THEY CAN SAID THAN ALL THE CARDS ARE ORIGINALS

about the chocolate card he said that is is from
 

MATCH BOX . People used to cut the box and converted them in cards.

So, are you saying all the cards are from 1922? I can tell you, that is the ONLY possible way I could see the Almendares cards being legit. They are absolutely not from 1911 or 1915 or anything other than 1922 like the amateurs. It still makes absolutely no sense why they would have been issued using 1910 Punch images and using stats over a decade old, but it's not out of the question.

If you're saying they're from 1922, I'm willing to say it's possible they're real. If you're saying anything earlier, no way.

-Ryan

Rolando said again that he guaranteed that they are originals
 

About the year he can not be sure. This is all that he can said. I hope all this conversation help all the collectors. One more time, i am not an expert. But you have here the words of the person who know more about cuban baseball cards all over the world as ryan by himself said in this forum. Bye

Good bye? That's it?

Here is a very clear example of how it can easily be determined that they were all produced at the same time. On the left is the back of the "J.A. Falagan" card, one of the amateurs. On the right is "Evaristo Pla" card, one of the Almendares ones. Notice how the text on the right edge of the Falagan card shows part of the next card on the sheet. It just shows the first letter of each line. Then notice the letters on the left edge of the Pla card. A perfect match. This means the Pla card was definitely produced with the amateur cards, which means it's from 1922. It also means that either all of the cards are real, or they are all fakes. Since the amateur cards do seem real, and Rolando has said all of them are, I'm pretty comfortable at this point saying there's a very good possibility these are legit. It's pretty exciting when new issues are discovered, so this is pretty cool, if they're real, which it appears they probably are. That's about as much of an endorsement as I can give.

You should have no problem selling them now due to all the extra publicity this thread has generated for you and your cards. You're welcome. I am not bidding, btw.

-Ryan

Someone is...all the cards now have bids.

They all had bids as of yesterday.

The power of Net54 in action!

Ryan check card of aguilitas and nacionales they used same photo
 

Ryan rolando said that the images used in nacionales and aguilitas second serie is the same in some cases as mendez card. Check it. One more time cards are originals. You said that you will truth in rolando words and this is what he said.

The power of net54 and the words of rolando that is who know more than anybody about
 

CUBAN BASEBALL CARDS. AS I toldk you when I begin this, I KNOW NOTHING, let the experts talk

If Ryan is cool with them, then I guess I was wrong for questioning them.

Yes, I'm the one that started all this so I apologize for all this and to Ernesto and Ana.

I had and still have serious doubts about the legitimacy of these cards but I'll just keep my mouth shut from here on out.

I just find it a little suspicious that CubanBall.com just posted the RYJ Hildalgo card within the last day or so. So was the Hildalgo part of this new discovery?
Or did Cesar have it in his possession for a while and was just waiting for Rolando to endorse it?

But whatever, what do I know? All I was trying to do was to keep collectors from getting burned by fakes as I have run into cards similar in the past, only those were deemed to not be real.

If any good has come out of this, it is the revelation of Rolando Sanchez, who by the pictures posted in this thread, he has one hell of a collection.

Steve

Rolando said that check other card from nacionales and aguilitas
 

Torriente and others more are same images. I don't know about the cesar cards. It was not found together. I just opened the cesar site when ryan said about the same images used in punch and romeo y julieta

Yes, there are many examples of the same image being used in different cards. Not cards produced over 10 years apart, though. Those Mendez cards are 1 year apart.

-Ryan

It just means that they could be from 1911 and 1915.
 

IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY COULD BE FROM 1911 AND 1915. Rolando has to go to his house. I am very happy for what I do for him and for the world of collecting baseball cards. Now everybody know who he is. If any user have any doubt that want to translate to Rolando I will do it to him. Rolando is a great person and it is very cooperative. GOOD LUCK

Net54 just had a public conference call from Cuba...that's pretty cool. :)