100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Not the most popular T-card set, but very colorful and innovative, the T201 cards are relatively easy to acquire. In
my opinion, the artwork illustrated on the T201's, and the clever fold-over design (completing the picture of the ball-
player on the back) represent some of the finest stuff from American Lithographic. Only 50 cards (100 Subjects) are
needed to complete this set. The fold-over feature allowed these oversized cards to fit into a MECCA cigarette pack.

Imagine a young kid's excitement when pullng a Cobb fresh out of a MECCA pack 100 years ago.
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ameccacobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

Front.......Back

Abstein / Butler...........Jersey City (EL)
Baker / Downie............Kansas City (AA)
Barrett / McGlynn.........Milwaukee (AA)
Bender / Oldring...........Philadelphia (AL)
Brown / Hofman..........Chicago (NL)
Chase / Sweeney.........New York (AL)
Cicotte / Thoney..........Boston (AL)
Clarke / Byrne..............Pittsburg
Collins / Baker..............Philadelphia (AL)
Crawford / Cobb...........Detroit
Donovan / Stroud.........Detroit
Downs / Odwell............Columbus (AA)
Doyle / Meyers.............New York (NL)
Evers / Chance.............Chicago (NL)
Ford / Johnson..............New York (AL)
Foster / Ward...............Rochester (EL)
Gaspar / Clarke.............Cinncinatti
Grant / McLean.............Cinncinatti
Hartzell / Blair...............New York (AL)
Hickman / Hinchman.......Toledo (AA)
Huggins / Bresnahan.......St Louis (NL)
Johnson / Street............Washington
Killian / Fitzpatrick..........Toronto (EL)
Kling / Cole...................Chicago (NL)
Lajoie / Falkenberg.........Cleveland
Lake / Wallace...............St Louis (AL)
LaPorte / Stephens.........St Louis (AL)
Lapp / Barry...................Philadelphia (AL)
Leach / Gibson...............Pittsburg
Leifield / Simon...............Pittsburg
Lobert / Moore...............Philadelphia (NL)
Lord / Dougherty............Chicago (AL)
Lush / Hauser................St Louis (NL)
Matthewson / Bridwell.....New York (NL)
Mattern / Graham...........Boston (NL)
McBride / Elberfeld..........Washington
McCabe / Starr..............Buffalo (EL)
McGinnity / McCarty........Newark (EL)
Miller / Herzog................Boston (NL)
Rucker / Daubert............Brooklyn
Seymour / Dygert...........Baltimore (EL)
Speaker / Garner............Boston (AL)
Summers / Jennings........Detroit
Thomas / Coombs...........Philadelphia (AL)
Titus / Dooin..................Philadelphia (NL)
Turner / Stovall..............Cleveland
Walsh / Payne................Chicago (AL)
Wheat / Bergen..............Brooklyn
Wiltse / Merkle...............New York (NL)
Woodruff / Williams.........Indianapolis (AA)



Cobb & Crawford, Johnson, and Matty are 4 of the 20 - HOFer's depicted in this set.

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/at201crawfordcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bt201crawfordcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/at201johnsonmatty.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Thanks to Jon Canfield, who helped me complete my T201 set, and was the source of the MECCA Cigarette pack


TED Z

TRex
 

happy new year, ole buddy!
i have the mcginnity and mccarty--and the mclean and ed grant, both framed with my Mecca pack.
they are unique beauties, as you suggest.
folks who witness them in my office always remark about their lithography
and ask questions about 'their being folded in half'!!

all the best, night owl

barry

If there ever were an issue that should not be slabbed this is probably the one. I enjoy that the colorful artwork seems to be unique to the set. Some of my few:

http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_...McLean%201.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_...McLean%202.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_...Gibson%201.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_...Gibson%202.jpg

Matty
 

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/y...ains/021-1.jpg


Tom C

Signed T201s
 

I was never a big fan of the T201 set before I acquired my first one, which was of Zack Wheat, autographed by Wheat himself. I have found that the signature on these cards interacts well with the images and colors found on T201 cards and makes me appreciate the set much more than I had before. In my view, a signed T201 card is a true work of art.

Below are some of my favorite signed cards, even including my signed T206 collection. Perhaps my most cherished is the T201 double-signed by both Larry Doyle and Chief Meyers. You can even see how Meyers' green ink was smudged when he folded it back to send it back in the mail to the original collector.

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JCdlbFV4c13KTHQpTmmXa3Y2VLgy2RG_a1rPg51wK6M?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/RxQJqntTj-I/AAAAAAAAB5I/T9ln45Mbk8g/s800/Doyle-Meyers%20T201%20Auto%20SGC%2040.jpg" height="721" width="800" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-szJrqykFWp6tqA8NOvA-HY2VLgy2RG_a1rPg51wK6M?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/RxQJq3tTj_I/AAAAAAAAB5Q/O9J_3g_axus/s800/Leifield%20T201%20Auto%20SGC%2050.jpg" height="800" width="448" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/l21KbszBvm-atvUKl8_sLHY2VLgy2RG_a1rPg51wK6M?feat=embedwebsite "><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/RxQJrHtTkAI/AAAAAAAAB5Y/mlm1G6vTH9c/s800/Wheat%20T201%20Auto%20SGC%2050.jpg" height="800" width="445" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1wdvNNA2rblRoKbsg_7ysHY2VLgy2RG_a1rPg51wK6M?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Ys7fw31kTDs/S7FFPL4wqaI/AAAAAAAAHxs/rCKzXym1mr0/s800/Rucker%20T201%20Auto%20SGC%2060.jpg" height="800" width="450" /></a>

Great set - I like these cards and especially the lower prices of them! I am about 7 or 8 shy of a complete set - maybe with this being the 100th anniversary I should focus on knocking off the final cards I need...

Ted, did these cards originally come pre-folded in the packs? In your picture with the Cobb, it looks as if they were folded already. But many of the cards look as if they have never been folded.

I'm curious to get your take on this.

Thanks,
Scott

Love these cards!

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

I like to collect color errors, and of all the T201's that I have seen over the years, I have found only this Cobb
that is missing its Blue ink.

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/at201cobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bt201crawfordcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


What I find quite interesting is the accuracy of the STATS printed on the backs of most of these cards, that
still hold 100 years later. Of course, there are a few errors, I have found only six (of the 100) stats faulty.
The following details these errors......

1....Ford / Johnson......1910 season stats are of Otis Johnson's Jersey City stats (not the NY Highlanders).

2....Killian / Fitzpatrick......Ed Killian's stats. are incorrect.

3....Lush / Hauser......Lush is named "Ernest", but his batting and pitching stats are that of Johnny Lush.

4....Seymour / Dygert......Cy's 1910 stats are when he played for the NY Giants and Jimmy's 1910 stats are
when he played for the A's.

5....Speaker / Gardner......Gardner is named "Earl", but the stats are those of Larry Gardner.

6....Hartzell / Blair......Roy Hartzell's batting stats. are those of Topsy Hartsel. And, Walter Blair's stats are
totally incorrect. I couldn't find whose stats. they are of.
So, I leave it up to any one of you guys to figure out this one ?


TED Z

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/3919350393/" title="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3525/3919350393_51d62c7f85_o.jpg" width="1000" height="862" alt="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/2909257979/" title="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3141/2909257979_a7574cea96_o.jpg" width="1000" height="866" alt="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/3694660786/" title="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3657/3694660786_8849e054c7_o.jpg" width="1000" height="857" alt="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/3862407881/" title="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2570/3862407881_c1bb6192c1_o.jpg" width="1000" height="859" alt="1911 Mecca Double Folders T201" /></a>

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Scooter

Regarding your...... " did these cards originally come pre-folded in the packs? In your picture with the Cobb,
it looks as if they were folded already. But many of the cards look as if they have never been folded. "

I have never seen a T201 without a factory fold line. And, as my picture here in post #1 illustrates, judging
from the physical size of the MECCA cigarette packs, I don't see how an "un-folded" T201 could be inserted
into these packs.


TED Z

I don't know much about T201's but don't miscuts show us that these cards were folded prior to cutting? Maybe Mr. Luckey will post his Mathewson I speak of. :)

Of course -- you'd be all mis-aligned if you didn't fold before the cut. Many of the T201s posted above (including my Wheat) show a change in angle at the fold line that can be attributed to a fold-then-cut process. If you just cut them straight and then later tried to fold them (1) you'd have to fold them each individually, which is more costly; and (2) the folds wouldn't fit perfectly top-to-bottom.

Without a doubt this is the easiest T-card set to complete. I recommend it for everyone because there is a "realistic" chance of completing the set after you start collectingit. Believe it or not there is a feeling of accomplishment when you complete the set.

Set a goal and see if you can pick up the set for 30% under the going price of the set. The challenge would be to take your time to complete the set and be patient in the process. I'm working on putting together a second set now and it's almost as fun as putting the first set together.

My only example. Sorry, no back scan.

Quality control was not the greatest...
Attachment 30519
Attachment 30520

My favorite card from the set...
Attachment 30521

As mentioned, a great set to complete. Especially, while trying to tackle the monster. Here is a quick glimpsed of the set (the rest of my set is graded)....
Attachment 30522

Lovely Day...

Some T201 trivia
 

I was happy to see Jack Coombs in the T201 set. I always wondered why Coombs was never featured in the T206 and T205 sets. With a 71-32 W-L
record, Coombs was 2nd to Matty in W-L percentage during the T206 production era (1909 - 1911). Jack led the A.L. in 1910 with 31 wins, and led
the A.L. in 1911 with 28 wins. He single-handedly won the World Series for the A's in 1910 with a 3-0 performance....plus batting .385 in the Series.
Check-out his 1910 stats on his T201 card (31-9).

Hey guys....with numbers like these, does anyone out there have a good explanation why Jack Coombs was not included in the T206 or T205 sets ?
Please chime in with your theory's.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/coombsedgrant201.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Eddie Grant was the first Major League ballplayer to die in WWI....in the Argonne Forest campaign in France in 1918. In 1917, Grant enlisted in the U.S.
Army and reached the rank of Captain in his infantry battalion. Eddie Grant played for the Phillies, Cincinnati, and the New York Giants from 1907-1915.

In 1921, the New York Giants dedicated a memorial plaque to honor Eddie Grant in the Polo Grounds. It's my understanding that this plaque now resides
in the San Francisco ballpark.


TED Z

Some more T201 trivia
 

My guess on the availability of the T201 cards was the Summer/Fall of 1911. Four subjects (Grant, Hartzell, Laporte, and Lobert)
were traded to their identified teams in Jan - Feb of 1911. Furthermore, we know that the Gold-bordered sets (T205, T80, etc.)
were available in the Spring/Summer of 1911.
Just my speculation....if anyone here has some more info. regarding tgis, p;ease chime in.


TED Z

My humble example...
 

I picked this up raw from a guy in England a few years ago...was pleasantly surprised that it graded out as well as it did. One of my favorites...sorry no back scan.

I know I've posted this before, but....

Those "quantum field theory" dudes are going to have a field day with that pic. Did you get up on your roof to take that shot (with room to spare) or did you borrow the hubble telescope???

Lovely Day...

T201
 

Iggy,

I just emailed you as well. Can you tell me the dimensions of the extra margins on the side of your Cobb & Johnson? This might give us an idea of the size of the printing sheet.

Thanks

M Wheat

One of my favorites, a four in one: Crawford, Cobb, Turner and Stovall.

I like the way Beckett grades these. If all the players can be identified, in this case four, it is considered an error and given a full grade. Had all players not been on there, it would have been severely downgraded instead. Very different than the PSA miscut qualifier.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8...rnamescobb.jpg

Another error:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2...1overprint.jpg



Kevin

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Hey guys, some of these T201's came out of MECCA packs from the tobacco plant in New York City (Factory #30).
Other T201's came out of MECCA packs from the tobacco plant in Rochester, New York (Factory #649).

My T201 set of 103 cards (includes an extra Chance/Evers, Johnson/Street, & Crawford/Cobb) have 48 cards with
Factory #649 backs and 5 cards with Factory #30 backs.
Another T201 set has 47 cards with Factory #649 backs and 3 cards with Factory #30 backs.

I'm curious, if this Factory's distribution is typical for these T201 cards ?

Please check out your cards and tell us what you have ? ?

Thanks for your time and effort on this survey.


TED Z

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Deleted......(dbl. post)

So from the sampling of Teds back survey so far it would appear that either more #649 survived or were printed, or for every 10 factory #649 out there only 1-3 factory #30 ? I have four Bender/Oldring T201s, a graded pair with each factory #30/#649 and a raw pair with each factory #30/#649. I had previously thought that they were in equal abundance but it may appear that the #30 is tougher to get ? I really like this set and think a raw example is a must so you can fold it in half and see how they were meant to be used, a very cool card concept and great way to get kids into smoking, I mean collecting baseball cards.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...rbacks0001.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...loseup0001.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...wbacks0001.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u...eupraw0001.jpg

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Johnny Harmonica

A current sampling of the T201 cards listed on ebay results in......

Factory #649......62 cards

Factory #30.........9 cards


I agree with you that these cards are more appreciated when ungraded.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/at201cobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

Not that it will help the survey much but my only T201 which is shown in Post #8 is a Factory 30 back.

T201 Back Type
 

Ted,

I agree with you and JohnnyH above. I had previously tracked an unknown number of backs and came up with a 70/30 ratio with Factory 649 backs being more populous. The original Net 54 post was here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=117384

Also, of the 107 T201's in my collections at present, 81 (76%) are 649 backs and 26 (24%) are Factory 30 backs. This may help explain why the Dougherty/Lord card (found with only a Factory 649 back) - although not rare - is more difficult to find.

When I had originally started to gather data on the set, I did not track back info. I was trying to figure out if all cards were equally printed; if not which ones were double printed, etc. Although, no known rarities in the set existed, it seemed some T201's did not come up for auction as frequently as others.

Initially I tracked the population of each card, but quickly realized there seemed to be a bias towards HOF'ers being more populous and the 11 minor leaguers showing up less frequently. As all T201 collectors soon realize, the set has a high frequency of miscut borders, with a bias towards the "right edge" as you are viewing the card.

I let my daughter play with the cards while I was working, and she figured out you could match the edges of the cards. It occurred to me that matching the miscuts you might be able to determine the order of cards in a print sheet which might tell which cards were single & double printed.

I won't review everything, but in sum, it appears the Cobb card was quadruple printed (showing 4 miscut edge combinations) and the minor leaguers were single printed. I have inconclusive data on the remainder, but it seems to suggest that the other HOF'ers were at least double printed and possibly triple printed. This seems to suggest that the set was printed in two sheets, if the sizes of print sheets for other sets circa 1910-11 still hold.

M Wheat

My nicest is evers/ chance psa 8oc.

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Mike Wheat

I appreciate your expertise regarding the T201's. And, thanks for confirming my observation that Factory #649 cards
are significantly more available than Factory #30. Here is my MECCA pack out of Factory # 30 (New York City).



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/meccat201back.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



If your observation that the Dougherty/Lord card exists only with the Factory #649 back is valid, and with an over-
whelming amount of these cards from Factory #649....then, my speculation is that American Litho's initial press runs
of T201's were shipped to the New York City factory producing MECCA cigarettes.
Sometime in mid-1911, ATC transferred their MECCA production to the more modern (and efficient) factory (#649) in
Rochester, NY.....where significantly more MECCA cigarettes were produced.


TED Z

factory #30
 

Attachment 31379

Attachment 31380

T201 Wlater Blair
 

OK, Ted I give up on conclusively answering your question on whose stats were substituted for Walter Blair's. However, I think I know the answer - I just can't prove it. Just to review a few quirks about the set while I lay out my suppositions.

A number of small questions arose while I was trying to answer Ted's question - namely why they included a high concentration of minor leaguers like the Eastern Association (EA) & American Association (AA); and why the set includes only 5 cards of the EA - instead of 6 cards like the AA. I believe there is a missing EA card. Further I believe both of these quirks directly relate to Ted's "change in factory location" theory (stated in his post #33) as well as his original question about Blair's stats.

I've gone back 4 years either side of 1910 for any player that reasonably could have been substituted for Blair's stats. First, I concentrated on other NY Highlanders - and then looked up stats on other ML'ers. There were a lot of good candidates - but none that really fit the bill.

The Highlanders were in the middle of a pennant race and had a problem with catching in 1910 - using 6 catchers for different portions of the 1910 season. Mitchell wasn't the answer - playing a combination of 1B/Catcher/P and neither was Sweeney (playing catcher part time platooning, but not hitting very well). The Highlanders used 3 other catchers prior to ending with Blair. Blair really didn't play catcher much until the next year and only played in 6 games in 1910 for the Highlanders. If you combine Sweeney & Mitchell's stats you come up with a stat line that is pretty close to the stat line on Blair's T201 card....but with an average well under Blair's stated 1910 stats:

Player G AB R H SB Avg.
Blair 146 481 44 124 16 .258
Mitch. & Sweeney 146 411 41 88 18 .210

Incorrect record keeping could have accounted for differences in some of the stats but frankly they still appear too far off to lead me to believe this was the answer.

I am going to shift gears a little and then I will tie everything together at the end. TRex Ted previously mentioned that printing was shifted from Factory 30 to the more efficient Factory 649 located in Rochester, NY. I think this theory is probably correct and explains one of the quirks about the set - why so many minor leaguers were included in the set. I think the location of the printing plant (Rochester) influenced card selection, resulting in more cards from the Eastern Association of which Rochester had a team. However, it doesn't explain why the EA had 5 cards and the AA had 6 cards. Although this could have been unintentional on the part of ATC, I believe it was deliberate. I believe the "missing" 6th EA card was Blair's and Blair's stats are his Rochester minor league stats. The set was probably printed after August 1910 and Blair would have been with the NY Highlanders.

Blair's contract was purchased by Rochester of the Eastern Association prior to the 1910 season for $1,500. In August of 1910, in an attempt to solve their catching problem - on the heels of a pennant race - the Highlanders purchased Blair's contract back for $7,000 and the Highlanders eventually finished in second place. Blair played for the Highlanders in 6 games in 1910 and only became a starter in 1911.

Further, I suspect there is a correlation between the location of the switch to the Rochester printing plant - if Ted is correct - and the reason so many Rochester and other minor league teams were in the set. The set was probably meant to have had wide local appeal since Rochester was part of the Eastern Association and a number of the EA teams were nearby. I suspect the set was intended to appeal to fans in these two markets (NY and the Midwest). Just a guess.

Can anyone confirm Blair's Rochester stats for 1910? Ted, thoughts?

M Wheat

Blair Stats
 

Here are Blair's stats for Rochester Broncho's of the Easter League (now International League)

Walter Blair Games: 146 AB 481 Hits 124 with a .258 Average.

No data on runs or SB, but I think this is the answer Ted. The stats are his minor league stats with the Rochester Broncho's prior to the dissolution of the league and formation of the International League.

M Wheat

error cards...

Mathewson error card.

100th anniversary of T201's....show and/or tell us of your cards
 

Thanks Mike W....that's some nice research on Blair's Rochester info.

But, I have to correct statement you made in your Post #35......you referred to Rochester as the "printing plant". Not so,
all the cards** representing the American Tobacco Co. from 1909 to 1917 were printed in New York City at the American
Lithographic Co. (ATC's affiliate).

From NYC these T-cards were shipped to ATC's various Tobacco factory's.

**note..there are 2 exceptions to this. The T207 cards I believe may have been printed by another outfit. And, the T216's
were printed by the same printer in Philadelphia that produced the E-type cards in 1908-1910.


TED Z

Got my first a few weeks back.

Ted,

Thanks for the clarification. I just assumed the Rochester plant produced both cig. packs as well as printed cards. And did this likely hold for T206 also? Your answer suggest that is the case. I did not realize cards were printed at one place and then shipped to another factory for insertion into packs.

Mike W

Yes, American Litho. researched, designed, and printed virtually all the T-cards from 1909 - 1917 (with the exception of T207's and T216's). The
founder of the American Tobacco Co. (J. B. Duke) and the founder of American Litho. (J. Knapp) were very close friends and business associates
in New York City. The American Litho. building still stands on South Park Ave and 19th Street.

The various Tobacco factory's (#25, 30, 42, 649, etc.) manufactured only tobacco products. They did not have the artists, printers, presses, etc.
to have produced BB cards. The cards were shipped by rail to each Factory to be inserted into their cigarette packs.


TED Z