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-   -   The E91 American Caramel Sets...Generic or Name Brand by Brian Parker (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=116102)

Leon 09-18-2009 09:38 PM

The E91 American Caramel Sets...Generic or Name Brand by Brian Parker
 
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I am posting this manuscript for Brian Parker. He will follow up with scans and a comment or two....regards

Leon 09-18-2009 09:40 PM

last 2 pages
 
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here are the last 2 pages...

brianp-beme 09-18-2009 09:56 PM

Scans
 
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E91A A's, Giants and Cubs

ChiefBenderForever 09-18-2009 09:58 PM

I like the cartoonish image of this set and think it is very 19th century impressionistic.

brianp-beme 09-18-2009 10:02 PM

Scans
 
2 Attachment(s)
1st scan: E91A, E91B and E91C backs
2nd scan: E91A Steinfeldt, E91B Steinfeldt (same design + player designations)
3rd scan: E91A Kling, E91B Archer, E91C Gibson (same design + different player designation each set)

brianp-beme 09-18-2009 10:07 PM

Comparision scans
 
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Comparision scans of Mathewson and Steinfeldt M116's (ignore the typed name) which I believe are exact photo matches, and the M116 Hartsel, while not the exact photo the artists used to create the E91A card, certainly exhibits the facial characteristics as seen on the E91A.

brianp-beme 09-18-2009 10:11 PM

Your turn
 
I thought I would enlist the aid of fellow Net54 members to help "illustrate" an unpublished article I wrote several years ago about the three E91 sets. In the article, which is posted above with Leon's gracious assistance, I argue that the facial features of players pictured in the majority of the E91A and about half of the E91B set are based either on actual photographs as seen in other contemporaneous card issues, or are at least easily recognizable when comparing the E91 card with another, non-exact match photo of the player, also as seen in other card sets. I have posted images of the complete E91A set, and will post side to side images of three E91's with their 'card buddies' to help bolster my contentions.

And here is how you can help. I strictly did my research based upon the E91's in my possession and the full color card images as shown in the Classic Baseball Card book as is mentioned in the article that was issued over 20years ago. I was able to come up with an index of comparision cards from a variety of issues, which is located at the end of the article, that I believe will prove my theories. But since some of these card issues are uncommon (like the T204's and especially the PC760 Rose postcard issue), and others are from sets that I don't actively collect (like the M116's and Fan Craze issues) I am only able to offer the three comparision cards to post with the article. Thus I will enlist your help in posting scans of any cards from the article's index that you might have so that you can help prove, or heck, disprove, my theories.

I hope you will enjoy this article, and perhaps it will succeed in its purpose of garnering a little respect for E91's, which we all know suffer from a horrible reputation.

Brian Parker

fkw 09-18-2009 11:02 PM

Never really looked at the E91s much in the past.

I agree many of them look like the players. Offhand...Especially many of the Cubs like the Evers, Tinker, Reulbach. Also some of the other HOFers like McGraw, Waddell, Plank, Bender, etc. look very similar in the faces.

Thanks for showing and telling Brian, E91's are all that bad :)

sox1903wschamp 09-19-2009 12:32 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Thanks Brian. Great article and nice to see the E91's gaining some respect :)
Here is the Harry Davis and John McGraw M116's. The Davis looks spot on. The McGraw....not so sure but I am far from a photo expert.

tedzan 09-19-2009 02:23 AM

E91's
 
Brian

Great article and analysis. I have 3 questions for you.......

1st
Certain players (e.g. Waddell with the A's, etc.) tell us that the E91-A was American Caramel's first BB card issue.
Followed by their E90-1 (1st series). So, do you have any idea why Burdick assigned the E91 set "E91"......rather
than "E90" ?


2nd
I'm not sure if you covered this....any thoughts regarding the Walter Johnson image portraying him as a Southpaw ?



My two favorite E91 cards

3rd
......however, is this supposed to be Wagner or Tinker. They printed this image for both. But, Tinker is in the A series
and the B series, while Wagner is in the last series (C) ?


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/honuswagnere91.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/eddieplanke91.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Thanks,

TED Z

calvindog 09-19-2009 08:08 AM

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/3716705555/" title="1909 American Caramel E91-B by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2563/3716705555_d42e071923_o.jpg" width="900" height="759" alt="1909 American Caramel E91-B" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/3572641165/" title="1910-11 Sporting Life M116 (Blue) by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3641/3572641165_05e3f32831_o.jpg" width="450" height="733" alt="1910-11 Sporting Life M116 (Blue)" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/3762155131/" title="1908 American Caramel E91-A by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3762155131_9a7822e78c_o.jpg" width="420" height="699" alt="1908 American Caramel E91-A" /></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/2957826293/" title="1906 Fan Craze Game NL WG3 by calvindog65, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3058/2957826293_a95183c957_o.jpg" width="450" height="761" alt="1906 Fan Craze Game NL WG3" /></a>

cfc1909 09-19-2009 09:06 AM

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here is Walter and a shared image

Attachment 6176

barrysloate 09-19-2009 09:36 AM

Excellent article Brian.

While I don't think the E91's will be on anybody's list of all-time great sets, I also feel it is a bit underappreciated. Those with accurate likenesses are really pretty decent cards. But the repeated images, as well as that group of generic poses, is a disappointment. The question is why didn't the designers take the trouble to create real likenesses of all the players? Doesn't seem like it would have been that difficult to do.

brianp-beme 09-19-2009 09:38 AM

E91 article
 
Thanks for all the input so far on my E91 article. Thanks Frank and Ted for the encouraging words, as well as Michael and Jeff for the comparision card scans. I think you can see with Michael's Harry Davis M116 as well as the Brown and Donlin that Jeff posted, the E91's are an exact match. I like how the E91 artists even duplicated the swath of hair coming beneath the cap on Brown. As far as the McGraw, if I remember correctly the Fan Craze is a perhaps more 'smiling' depiction of McGraw, and would perhaps show off the similiarities between the two better.

To answer some of Ted's questions, I believe that Burdick just didn't catch the fact that the E91A was issued in 1908, and stuck with it throughout the years. As far as the Walter Johnson as southpaw is concerned, the Johnson card is really the image of Waddell, as is seen in the E91A set. And finally the Tinker/Wagner cards are really images of Tinker...maybe someone can post the comparision cards I listed so as to show off the facial likenesses.

Keep the posts and comparision scans coming...I think it will be a nice revelation to all.

Brian

brianp-beme 09-19-2009 09:52 AM

age old problem
 
To answer Barry's question about why the artists didn't produce accurate depictions on some of the E91B and all of the E91C set...laziness. Heck, it is why my article is posted here...I didn't feel like tracking down all the images of the comparision cards. Also budget issues could have come into play. Artists don't work for free. I imagine American Caramel thought they could get away with putting out inaccurate representations because, hey, these cards were produced for kids and what in the hell do they know anyway?

To me the E91C set is fairly worthless...just get one for your type collection. I would concentrate on the E91A issue and the E91B cards that have the same name designations as the E91A set.

Brian

birdman42 09-19-2009 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme (Post 750696)
To me the E91C set is fairly worthless...just get one for your type collection.
Brian

Brian, I couldn't agree more.

Jim, can you send me that fairly worthless WAJO? It'll work in my type collection. I'll even pay some toward postage.

Bill

brianp-beme 09-19-2009 11:26 AM

E91 Reulbach
 
I have mentioned that most of the E91A cards share a facial likeness to the actual subject, which is then attached to a generic body, but 5 years or more ago I believe it was Runscott who shared a full-body pitching photo of Reulbach, either on the net54 site or for crying out loud the old Full Count board, that is exactly the same as pictured on his E91 cards. I didn't save the image (old computer crash go boom), but because of its existence I believe the artists used available photo sources to create these cards. As my article stresses it seems that most of these photos were portraits, but like in the case of Reulbach fuller body shots could have been used on a handful as well. Maybe someone can track down the Reulbach side action shot, or perhaps runscott could come out of the woodworks and help make my point.

Brian

brianp-beme 09-19-2009 11:47 AM

T204 Breshnahan, Tinker and Plank
 
You have to love the Library of Congress site...here is a link to a T204 Breshnahan, Tinker and Plank

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displa.../~ammem_UOFl::

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displa.../~ammem_UOFl::

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displa.../~ammem_UOFl::

Brian

Steve D 09-19-2009 12:45 PM

Thank you Brian, for all the work and providing the information to us.

I laugh every time I see the E91 Plank, at what looks like a golf ball in his hands...but it is my favorite card in the set :)

Steve

toppcat 09-21-2009 04:31 PM

It looks like each team had a separate artist. Those Athletics look to be the the best executed and it seems the Cubs are rendered as thinly as possible in the depictions of their torsos and lower bodies. The Giants look a bit more full bodied to my eye. Great article!

Vintagecatcher 09-21-2009 06:12 PM

Johnny Kling
 
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Brian,

Here is a scan of my M116 Kling with your Kling E91:












Patrick

brianp-beme 09-21-2009 10:22 PM

E254 scan comparisions
 
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Thanks all, and thanks to those who have posted on the M116 thread...I will get up the comparision cards all you have scanned when I can. And a special thanks to Rhett, whose Colgan's (they were not in the Classic Baseball Cards book, so I think I only briefly thought of them) are great to compare against the E91's. Here is some of exact (Steinfeldt, Davis and Waddell), and not exact but pretty conclusive (Schulte) examples. I will endeavor to update the index with the new E254 Colgan examples.

brianp-beme 09-21-2009 10:37 PM

Seymour scans
 
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Another striking similiarity

brianp-beme 09-21-2009 10:44 PM

It rings of Oldring
 
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Another pretty decent representation

brianp-beme 09-21-2009 10:52 PM

A trio of Hall of Famers
 
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Breshnahan, Tinker and Plank

Robextend 04-16-2010 12:25 PM

E91 Manuscript
 
Sorry for bringing back this old thread, but for someone who is now collecting the E91 series this information was priceless.

Is there any more background info known about this set that anyone can share?

Brian - Can you please email me a copy of your E91 manuscript if possible?

Thanks so much - Rob

brianp-beme 04-16-2010 01:51 PM

Hooray!
 
Thanks Rob for bringing back this thread...I was planning on doing so myself, but now I don't have to. Not to be boastful, but I think this thread qualifies to be included in the Archives.

Rob-- glad you found all my efforts useful, and I will send out the article to you within the next few days. And if anyone else is interested I can send it out as well...just email.


Brian

Robextend 04-16-2010 02:03 PM

Thanks again Brian!! I knew some of the more basic info, but the detail was extremely helpful in getting a better understanding of the set.

Just a side note, I am pursuing the E91-C as well just because I wouldn't feel like my E91 series was complete without it. However, I totally understand how the majority of collectors would have little to no interest in it.

benge610 03-20-2021 02:34 AM

This thread stands as tribute to passion and hard work; a wealth of knowledge and invaluable resource; to an (IMHO) underrated set. Yes, there still can be those.

Leon, please consider adding this to the Archive; I know where to find it, but to many who have yet to realize; OK, the Ed Karger/Dummy Taylor folks know what I am talking about;
Heck, Maybe someday this "beater" may no longer be viewed as such.

https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=30247

brianp-beme 03-20-2021 10:54 AM

Thanks Ben. I posted a separate thread that included this same article, but had much more images of matching card scans and included some more matches I had found since I first posted.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243920

Brian

benge610 03-20-2021 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme (Post 2083404)
Thanks Ben. I posted a separate thread that included this same article, but had much more images of matching card scans and included some more matches I had found since I first posted.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243920

Brian

Cool. Thanks Brian, I hadn't seen that thread; now added to a fantastic "E91" folder! Much appreciation.


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