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-   -   Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262673)

SetBuilder 11-27-2018 01:51 PM

Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)
 
1 Attachment(s)
Saw this card at REA and thought it looked too drawn and too close to the known Parent exemplars. Figured I wouldn't have to look through too many listings on Worthpoint so I gave it a shot.

Sure enough...

First sold on eBay on July 28, 2015 as a PSA 2.5. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ent-1736998090.

Then sold at REA in their 2016 Spring auction (with JSA cert) for $2,700. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...r-fred-parent/.

[Look through posts below for the rest.]

Post #1: Fred Parent
Post #8: Billy Sullivan
Post #23: Bob Rhoades (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #59: Paddy Livingston (thanks to T206Collector)
Post #100: Frank "Homerun" Baker (thanks to Pat_R)
Post #109: Elmer Flick (thanks to bn2cardz)
Post #128: Heinie Zimmerman (thanks to Thromdog)
Post #152: Wid Conroy (thanks to Pat _R)
Post #175: Larry Doyle (thanks to t206kid)
Post #194: Jap Barbeau (thanks to rommesc)
Post #205: Red Murray (thanks to atx840)
Post #366: Eddie Cicotte (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #374: Nap Rucker
Post #446: Jesse Tannehill (thanks to Pat_R)
Other Thread: Rube Marquard

Total: 15

SetBuilder 11-27-2018 01:53 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Large images for reference:

bbcard1 11-27-2018 01:57 PM

Setting aside the fact he died in 1972, what's to say that he didn't sign it in 2016?

T206Collector 11-27-2018 02:09 PM

Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well! :eek:

Rhotchkiss 11-27-2018 02:22 PM

Manny, you are a total rockstar! I don’t collect autographs, but as an avid card collector and active hobby participant, I very much appreciate your efforts on pointing out these forgeries; at the least, my eyes are much more wide open now.

Ryan Hotchkiss

ejharrington 11-27-2018 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 1830465)
Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well! :eek:

+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!

oldjudge 11-27-2018 02:31 PM

As I asked in the other post, has anyone gone to REA to ask who consigned the card? It should be possible to trace back and find the forger, especially when done in conjunction with the Marquard card.

SetBuilder 11-27-2018 02:33 PM

Fake T206 Signed Billy Sullivan
 
2 Attachment(s)
Another one...this one's a biggie at $6,600.

Sold on eBay as an SGC 30 on July 8, 2015. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lly-1734408624.

Then sold at the REA 2016 Spring auction. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...illy-sullivan/.

SetBuilder 11-27-2018 02:34 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Large images for reference:

BLongley 11-27-2018 02:36 PM

Oh wow, this is bad!:eek:

Pat R 11-27-2018 02:37 PM

Fantastic work Manny! Now if we could only get someone to wake up
and start investigating and prosecute the people responsible for
crimes like this.

SetBuilder 11-27-2018 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLongley (Post 1830479)
Oh wow, this is bad!:eek:

I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

The Nasty Nati 11-27-2018 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington (Post 1830471)
+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!

Ditto. Autos are too risky.

Fred 11-27-2018 02:41 PM

Holy crap, the plot thickens....

The Nasty Nati 11-27-2018 02:42 PM

I'm starting to wonder if we can trace a majority of the existing signed T206s to their unsigned version through a deep Worthpoint search. This is pretty alarming.

Fred 11-27-2018 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1830482)
I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

Uh, no.... to most of us, you're a frigging machine! This is going to rock signed T206 card collecting to the core.

Was JSA the authenticator on all of the T206 fake signature cards?

gregr2 11-27-2018 02:43 PM

Great work! Though this is really sad.

Laxcat 11-27-2018 02:44 PM

This is not good. This makes my heart and head hurt. I don’t have any prewar autos that aren’t football but this makes me not want to purchase anything until this crap gets sorted out.

T206Collector 11-27-2018 02:45 PM

Now you've got one of my newest ones, and an expensive one to boot!

:eek:

Guess I'll be calling REA and SGC now...

Edited to add that it is, indeed, really sad. Sullivan is the most I've ever paid for a signed T206 card. And I have never questioned its authenticity. Plus, it was authenticated by SGC and JSA, and in the most reputable auction house in our hobby.

scooter729 11-27-2018 02:46 PM

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

OldSchoolBaseball 11-27-2018 02:53 PM

Great detective work!
 
It's just the tip of the iceberg. Those T206, Goudey, etc vintage autograph collections are loaded with fakes. And if they are not, everyone will think so anyway.

Too much money and greed.

bn2cardz 11-27-2018 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter729 (Post 1830494)
Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

Those blocked ebay names change sometimes, so we either have 4 letters from the username or the user changed their name since Feb.

The Nasty Nati 11-27-2018 03:00 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I found another.
Here's the worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1737649372
And a better picture of the auto (t206collector I hope it's okay I reference your photo): http://www.signedt206.com/other-peop...ktbffyldzycqzp

The creasing is identical. There is a tobacco mark that was removed on his crotch but the missing cardboard is in the same location.
I'm sure a ton more fakes are about to be unsurfaced. This took me 2 minutes to find.

yanks12025 11-27-2018 03:04 PM

Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys

jad22 11-27-2018 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks12025 (Post 1830500)
Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys

Might move on to Goudey and Playball.

yanks12025 11-27-2018 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jad22 (Post 1830501)
Might move on to Goudey and Playball.

I know theres been talk before that a bunch of the Ruth signed Goudeys were fakes.

Republicaninmass 11-27-2018 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter729 (Post 1830494)
Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

It's the same buyer, and I'll say it's the forger. No such thing as coincidences

T206Collector 11-27-2018 03:23 PM

Trying to keep track of them all, the Rhoades was in Hunt Auctions, in February 2016. This one got away from me on the auction block...

https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...9&lot_num=1009

Pat R 11-27-2018 04:04 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter729 (Post 1830494)
Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

The letters aren't always the same on the ID's even if it's the same buyer.

The last sale of the Parent I found was August 22 2015 on ebay.
There were two other cards purchased by the same buyer.

Attachment 335637


Here's the scans from that sale

Attachment 335638

Attachment 335639

tab 11-27-2018 05:26 PM

I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.

SetBuilder 11-27-2018 05:35 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by tab (Post 1830551)
I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.

The Sullivan fake is copied almost exactly from this index card: http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lot...ventoryid=3920

Same positioning and spacing of the letters.

WillowGrove 11-27-2018 05:35 PM

I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.

T206Collector 11-27-2018 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowGrove (Post 1830555)
I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.

+1

Painful, but vital to the health of the hobby.

mrvster 11-27-2018 06:13 PM

this totally
 
sucks!!:mad:

paul I am feeling for you:eek:

I have a Snodgrass double signed front and back......i'll look for the scan...

vintagebaseballcardguy 11-27-2018 06:16 PM

Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

barrysloate 11-27-2018 06:51 PM

I'm guessing this goes beyond T-206 and into other sets as well. I've noticed a tremendous increase in the number of autographed cards being auctioned lately. This really doesn't look good.

Aquarian Sports Cards 11-27-2018 06:55 PM

While the evidence so far is damning, we shouldn't necessarily over-react either. There are lots more cards hitting the market than ever before because a generation of collectors is dying off, or selling their collection because their heirs aren't interested. I assume some of the increase in autographs is attributable to the same cause.

Republicaninmass 11-27-2018 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy (Post 1830568)
Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

You selling?

Lmk

vintagebaseballcardguy 11-27-2018 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass (Post 1830575)
You selling?

Lmk

Never been interested much in the autographed card scene. So, no. This is about as disturbing as anything I have seen in the hobby. If I don't see it signed in front of me or have someone I know and supremely trust, I can't trust it is a legit auto. This is part of the reason I have largely avoided autograph collecting. I feel badly for those victimized.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

slidekellyslide 11-27-2018 07:21 PM

Holy smokes...someone is turning $40 cards into $5000+ cards. Good work Manny, Patrick and Brock. Should be interesting to find out who consigned these.

atx840 11-27-2018 07:24 PM

Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost

http://i.imgur.com/OpgnkwV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YNt0RlO.jpg

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.
http://i.imgur.com/RWMakrN.gif

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!

Vintageclout 11-27-2018 08:18 PM

Fake Autographs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by atx840 (Post 1830580)
Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost

http://i.imgur.com/OpgnkwV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YNt0RlO.jpg

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.
http://i.imgur.com/RWMakrN.gif

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!

Glad you brought these two cards to light in order to make another critical point. If anyone thinks that only autographs require a “leap of faith”, they are only fooling themselves. For years, It’s been no secret that autograph fraud exists in the hobby. However, it is ALSO a fact that card doctoring to enhance grades and increase card values by thousands of dollars likewise has become an issue. Bottom line is in any hobby where an opportunity exists to significantly enhance value, fraud is always going to be a potential issue. The answer is NOT to stop collecting what your passion dictates, but for collectors to continue utilizing their expertise and sound judgement when purchasing their valued collectibles. The superb dectective work for these 3 forged T206s is a perfect example of the ongoing due diligence that will help minimize the criminal activity.

mrvster 11-27-2018 08:19 PM

this is
 
all very disturbing:eek:

holy crap! chris!

great to see you posting again :)

HobokenJon 11-27-2018 08:37 PM

Worth remembering what the authenticator said about Mastro
 
The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of -- after Mastro had been convicted.



And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

HobokenJon 11-27-2018 08:40 PM

Following up . . .
 
Just realized I should've posted that last post to the other thread about the fake autograph that SGC rejected. I'll post it there now.

Cooptown 11-27-2018 09:08 PM

Nice work on this gentlemen. This seems to be getting legs. This just popped up in my twitter feed.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ies-uncovered/

conor912 11-27-2018 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy (Post 1830568)
Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.

calvindog 11-27-2018 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 1830609)
If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.

Sal Bando says hello.

topcat61 11-27-2018 09:21 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thank you for posting this, truly appreciate it. I had it out with an authenticator at SGC at the Shriner's Show on November 3rd on a related topic.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=shriners+show

martyesullivan 11-27-2018 09:25 PM

As the owner of 165 different signed, authenticated, 1933 Goudey cards, this is disturbing to say the least. I appreciate the efforts of everyone here. Hopefully this forger(s) will be uncovered sooner, rather than later.


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