Per Andrew Moore, "The Government only identified a 'victim' for 347 of the 2,463 auctions". It's pretty obvious that the 2000+ auctions that don't list victims actually do have them. I was somewhat sympathetic to Doug Allen's plea not to do 57 months in jail, but I'm over that now.

Another thing to remember (and there's a lot to take in here) is that this list is just for those years where Mastro didn't destroy their records. This list would likely be much, much longer if they had that info.

Bill

Yeah I'm wondering why this appears to be secretive on this board. :confused:

There are some entries that are clearly instances where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid by running up the total: Peter Spaeth's name shows up as a shill bidder and winner on one entry [August 2007]. Chad Dreier is shown on one as well [see June 2007]. I don't believe either of those guys had anything to do with Mastro's scheme; I do believe both were cheated as a result.

Post #51 in this thread

http://net54baseball.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=51

Thanks !

I naively thought that only the big boys bidding on high value lots got shilled. I got shilled for $200. Sad.

any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.

Used to be a regular on the board, who had an impressive collection, then sold it all off. If you search his name and his shill bidders name, you'll see they share the same profession in the same town

And...I believe he was a high fallutin lawyer of some sort!

I was shilled once for $379 + vig (amounts seem to be only the hammer price) but apparently I wasn't a "victim."

I would love if Keith Olbermann spoke up about this. He was the victim on quite a lot of the top dollar items.

I was shill bid on the T206 Wagner I won for $160,000 for a client of mine in their 2007 live auction. Wow, what a mess this is.

I just emailed this to Olbermann.

I wasn't a "victim" either, but I was shilled. I wonder what that means.

Something I was wondering and hoping for.

For those inquiring about why no victim is listed in the document for many of the entries. I found this in the document which seems to explain the reasoning.

"It is my understanding that for the remaining auctions in which the Government calculated a loss but did not identify a “victim,” the identified shill bidder either placed the
winning bid or the “shill bid(s)” did not immediately precede the winning bid. As such, it is my opinion the actual loss on these auctions is $0 because the “shill bid(s)” did not have a direct financial impact on the winning bid."

So essentially if a shill bid was used to bump the lot from $500 to $600 and then legitimate bids take the item up to $1000. The government is listing a "loss" of $100 on the item but not identifying a victim because the 2nd high bid is judged to be legitimate. Based on that then it would seem that most of the shill bids were placed to push items up to a hidden reserve early on in the bidding rather than attempting to max out the final sale price with late shill bids. Not defending or attempting to excuse any of this behavior, but I thought that context was important to note. I never bid or consigned in a Maestro auction so not directly affected by this but it is very discouraging and makes me question a lot.

I would think there has been false price discovery without a doubt, however, I'm not so sure it will contribute to price deflation.

Could you please walk me through how you came to the conclusion that this is "clearly and instance where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid"? What do you base that on? I don't see the logic....at all .

thank you...my point exactly. Some consignors may not have known about their items being shilled. But I'm sure most on this list did.

And how did Mastro determine which auctions got shilled? Did he base it on the bidding activity, relationships, town in which the consignor and shiller lived? Or side agreements he made with each of these individual consignors/shill bidders? I'm sure there are other folks out there who have made arrangements with friends/family to shill bid an auction without Mastro knowing about it. So, this begs the question, "is this list complete?" (for 2007-2009 Mastro auctions).

And yes, the inflated price phenomenon is certainly an issue here that can't be ignored...especially with price transparency sites like VCP.

Net54 Member schillers
 

Leon, any chance you can run the schiller list up against your members list (past & present, with user name too), would like to see and possible hear from them, although like cockroaches you flip the light switch on and I'd bet those people arn't long for here.

And if someone can post all the schillers and the current auction houses they work for I believe that could be enlightening.

High Fallutin
 

Is this classification unique to the legal community or can people in other occupations aspire to it ?

I don't know a way to cross reference with that data. The data I have isn't very easy to work with, generally speaking.

I personally can't wait to see what those accused of shill bidding do? Will they use the most popular method of denial, change blame/subject, and name calling. I love how guilty people start of denying anything happened, then try to change the subject or try to switch the blame to others and after those 2 don't work they revert to name calling. I can't remember this method actually working for anyone.

The most effective is to come out fast and be honest, well as honest as one can be when caught being a less than stellar human being. From all the scandals in sports you would think the criminals would figure out the people that admit to their mistakes right away are looked at much better in the history books.

Andy,

A BIG Thank YOU!

Is there a way to find what was auctioned off? I am particularly interested in April 2007 Lot # 1512. Thank you in advance.

That was Ted Williams' game used bat for home run #400.

Tom C

How do you prove something was a shill bid? Can't the suspected shill bidder -- even if a competitor auctioneer or dealer -- just come back and say "Well of course we all follow each others' auctions and try to steal things at low prices if we can. I would have taken that Mantle card at $10,000 happily. . . . I suspected others would come along and far outbid me but crazier things have happened . . . ."

I guess this might be one of those examples of "First World Problems" that are often joked about. Not a joking matter here, of course, but I am nowhere near having this problem. I have never bid on an auction that wasn't on ebay and I am definitely a low end collector compared to just about any item shown on this report. It is likely that via ebay, I have been a victim of paying more than I would have w/o a shill bidder. I snipe just about everything and have for years now. Although that will help protect you from those pesky "nibblers" that bid up your proxy bids until you are maxed or they just slightly outbid you, you still pay more regardless if someone tosses out a shill bid anywhere within the listing timeframe. Kind of like those victimless line items from the report.

You would need an account with Legendary Auctions. Then go to history where you can search specific Auctions.

Here is the link for this specific item:
http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70657

Here is the list of schill bidders removing the duplicates
 

These are the names that appear in the Shill Bidder column of that list only, this does not includes the Consignors just to clarify


Alex Sawchak
Alex Sawchak and William Vangelos
Andrew Caparelli
Andrew Filipowski
Andrew Filipowski and Mastro Auctions
Andy Tuttle
Barbara Simmons
Bill Boehm
Bill Mastro
Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski
Bill Mastro and Jeffrey Marren
Bill Mastro and John Reznikoff
Bill Mastro and Millard Fisher
Bill Mastro, Mastro Auctions
Bill Mastro, Rich Mantia, Mastro Auctions
Bill Mastro, Ryan Friedman
Brian Bigelow
Brian Marren
Cardboard Coll.
Cardboard Collectibles
Chad Dreier
Chad Vandemark
Chris Porter
Chris Porter and Kirk Wagonlander
Cliff Kakelik and Mastro Auctions
Cliff Kekelik
Craig Helling
Cynthia Graves
Darryl Abramowitz
Dave Forman
Dennis Beechy
Derek Ihnat
Diroberto, Helling
Diroberto, Marronpot
Doug Allen
Doug Allen and Andrew Filipowski
Doug Allen and Bill Mastro
Doug Allen and John Reznikoff
Doug Allen and Mastro Auctions
Doug Allen, Reznikoff Mastro
Edward (Josh) Petrie
Eric Grigson
Frank Diroberto
Frank Diroberto, Marronpot
Frank Simmons
Greg Floyd
Helling
Henny Steinbach
Irv Lerner
Irv Lerner CPA
Irv Lerner, CPA
Jay Dyer
Jay Dyer and Shane Mooney
Jay Dyer, Mastro Auctions, Inc, and Shane Mooney
Jeff Marren
Jeff Marren and John Reznikoff
Jeff Marren and Mastro Auctions
Jeffrey Marren
Jennifer Stein
Jerry Zuckerman
Jerry Zuckerman and Ralph Deluca
Jerry Zuckerman, Joe Demattio
Jerry Zuckerman, Ralph Deluca
Joe Demattio
John Reznikoff
John Reznikoff and Mastro Auctions
John Reznikoff
Jorge Marce
Jorge Marce and Andrew Filipowski
Jorge Merce
Kevin Keating
Kevin Keating and Bill Mastro
Kevin Keating and Doug Allen
Kevin Keating, and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Kevin Keating, John Reznikoff
Kevin Keating, Reznikoff / Mastro
Kevin Keating, Rich Mantia
Kevin Struss
Kirk Wagonlander
Kirk Wagonlander and Mastro Auctions
Kirk Wagonlander, Mastro Auctions
Kristin Straub
Les Perline
Les Perline and Henny Steinbach
Les Perline and John Reznikoff
Les Perline
Les Perlne
Les Perlne and Mastro Auctions
Loraine Cordes
Marc Held
Mark Irodenko
Mark Irodenko and Andew filipowski
Mark Irodenko and Andrew Filipowski
Mark Theotikos
Mastro Auctions
Mastro Auctions and Doug Allen
Mastro Auctions and Shane Mooney
Mastro Auctions Inc.
Mastro Auctions, Inc and Steve Lucas
Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Mastro Auctions, Inc. and Bill Mastro
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and John Reznikoff
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Mark Irodenko
Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Ryan Friedman
Mastro Auctions, Ryan Friedman
Mike Mallon
Mike Mallon and Dennis Beechy
Mitch Rosen
Nicholas Dawes
Nick Dawes
Nick Dawes and Mastro Auctions
Nick Dawes, Mastro Auctions
Nick Dawes, Rich Mantia
Niel Feltz
Peter Calderon
Peter Calderon, and Chris Porter
Peter Calderon, Bill Mastro
Peter Garcia
Peter Spaeth
Ralph Deluca
Ralph Deluca and Jerry Zuckerman
Ralph Deluca, Jerry Zuckerman and Joe Demattio
Random Treasures
Ray Canales
Reznikoff/Mastro
Reznikoff/Mastro John Reznikoff
Rich Mantia
Rich Mantia and Mastro Auctions
Rich Mantia, Kevin Keating and Bill Boehm
Richard Consola
Rob Hughes
Robert Bordan
Rocco Loconte
Roco Loconte
Roco Loconte and Nick Dawes
Ron Oser
Russ Pardy
Russ Purdy
Russ Purdy and Kevin Keating
Ryan Friedman
Shane Mooney
Shane Mooney, Jay Dyer, and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Stephen Spector
Steve Forman
Steve Lucas
Steve Lucas and Brian Bigelow
Steve Lucas and Mastro Auctions, Inc.
Steven Turner
Teale Laney
Tim Frystak
Tim Frystak, Brian Marren, Chris Porter
TJ Schwartz
Whit Rutledge
William Schonsheck
William Vangelos
Zach Rullo

Who is Cardboard Collectibles?

It shows them shilling me

Page 81 lot 1856 I am shown as being shilled on a 3rd series Wacky Package stickers full box Graded by GAI. Though I do collect wacky packages, I never won that item.

Too funny

Lerner and Reznikoff; I am not that surprised. Kevin Keating and Pete Calderon; definitely shockers.

D@v1d D@v1s

Yup.... Major Bummer!

There are several people with connections to the auction house who are listed as shill bidders. That includes their Silk Road investor (Filipowski), their receptionist (Henny Steinbach), and their IT guy (Boehm), among others. Mastro was just 'spreading the wealth' there, I suspect, using other people's accounts to do his bidding (pun intended). Just because Peter C's name is in this list doesn't mean he was actually shill bidding.

any of those guys regularly post on net54 in the past month or so

Thank you. It says the consignor is Joe Orlando. The bat was sold by a John Orlando, I believe. Could this be a really bad typo?

That's true. I know I'm registered at every auction house as Buck Naked.

That list is the just the Shill bidders, but not the ones that consigned.

I know one name sticks out like a sore thumb, has been signed on today, but is not commenting.

+1 There is at least one board member that appears as a consigner for many lots that is not in the list of shill bidders.

There is quite a stretch from inferring phantom accounts were used to shill lots, to truly believing that the AH would actually use active accounts from established customers to bid. I'd think some eyebrows would be raised by someone getting an Email confirmation that they've bid on a lot.... that they didn't bid on. I don't buy it for a second.

+1

I'd love to hear him chime in. His name was on the victim list as well, assuming we're thinking of the same guy. I have to imagine there are a few errors on this spreadsheet.

Am I looking at the right list? It says "Consignor" and "Shiller"

Sorry, I meant the list posted directly in this thread by Shoeless Moe.

Zach Rullo, a PSA authenticator caught shill bidding. What is this world coming to?

I get what you're saying, but when you have access to a database as Mastro and Allen did, you can do anything you want with it. There's no guarantee emails were sent to high bidders to notify them.

Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely.

Bill

Why can't a secretary place shill bids for her boss? I'd buy it if all the bids were the in the names of the receptionist and the janitor, but it's not as if the bosses were shy about bidding under their own names.

If others' accounts were surreptitiously 'borrowed' to place illegal bids, perhaps there should have been charges for identity theft.

Thus ultimate salt in the wound would be when someone sees he was bid up by Spot.

What's the over/under on thread views here? :D

There are 3 shillers listed that currently sit on the board of experts at PSA. If someone were to post this on the CU boards, how long would it last?

And how about this being a Net54 exclusive???? Not a peep about this across the pond!

Is Forman the same one from SGC? And can anyone see if those shilled lots were SGC cards?

Would also be great to know if any of the names involved have since become affiliated with/employed by other Auction Houses?

this is quite the shit storm that's just getting started!

>25k

Here's 25001.

I'm surprised so many folks are surprised. In-house proprietary auction houses make little sense from a financial perspective and can be easily manipulated by the AH. Shilling is probably still rampant on the ones that are left. You can't even see the bidders, which is the first clue as to what is going on there.

E-bay has already spent billions building this software platform; and they do all the maintenance, upgrading, hardware, security, power, cooling, etc; for pennies. Does E-bay have shilling? of course. But at least I have some information to review in bid history to make my own assessment.

Lastly, and it's been beat to death, stay within your budget and be patient, and you will never be a "victim" of shilling again.

in 1 day

22,222

I totally disagree with this statement. I bid within my budget and I am on the list as a victim of shilling. Just because you do not pay more than you are willing to does not mean that you will not pay more than you should have if the auction was run fairly.

I agree with Bills take that you can't just assume because someone is in the shill column they did it...especially names like Calderon and Lucas and Henny Steinbach. There are some really aggredious instances on this spreadsheet though. Wow. Where does this go from here? Being outed like this, do people have any recourse on their situation? I was hit for $350 on a nonsports lot. I'm sure a lot of winners aren't jazzed about having the lots they won outed like this either. Many of these people play close to the best with their buying habits and collections.

Agree with the sentiment above me. My budget may have been pushed by unrealistic prices set as a result of shilling even on lots that weren't shilled.

I have contacted 2 auction houses of which I currently have high bids. I respectively asked, that if the consignor of these lots appears on this list, to please retract my bids. I offered my understanding that this may exclude me from participating in further auctions. This list is a tiny tip of a huge iceberg. I hope it tips over, irregardless of what may happen to the current valuation of our collectibles.

Who was the consignor with this shill bidder?

I don't have a dog in the fight but there has been plenty of discussion surrounding many cards at the very high end that have had astronomical price appreciation correcting.

Some have tried to suggest it could come from a decline in the stock market.

This could easily be the unforeseen catalyst that impacts prices. If shilling was so rampant during this period one must assume it is even more rampant today with card prices appreciating at the rate they have in many cases.

I have a feeling this story is just getting started and it will be incredibly fascinating to watch it play out.

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would let him bid using my ID. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if the bid from my account won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and the bid from my account was high bid, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Cause
 

Someone started a thread, but it just refers people over here

Thanks for posting the explanation Peter. I understand, and see how things can happen. That was 2007. I think you'll agree that everyone now is edgey and ready for zero tolerance

Yes, and after discussing this with some people I respect, I do see the gray area.

Just when I thought that the Mastro Mess was beginning to move slowly to the back burner, with Bill inside and Doug soon to go, but now we have more sordid details and, horror of horrors, actual names on both sides of the equation. The Dark Side rules tonight. Yoda

Peter
 

Peter, the only reason that no one was "run up" is because it happened that there were no bidders. If there had been bidders, you would have run them up.

List
 

well peter admits to being a shill...how nice
so he believes theres nothing wrong with making the public believe the value of that item is what he bid when in fact there was no one willing to actually pay that price...ie the most anyone person was willing to pay lets says is 1800 and he puts in 2000...but the 1800 bidder actually would have won the lot for 1200 as the 3rd bidders hi bid was only 1100...and he doesnt see anything wrong with that....if your consignor friend ron wants at least x dollars then he should consign it to an AH that will start the bidding at x dollars...this is nothing more than artificially upping the perceived value in the eyes of the public...but theres nothing wrong with that....hmmmmm

yeah that's pretty bad that you would bid and there was some collusion that if you won, the consignor would pay the BP to get the card back to the consignor..why not at least make you pay it to them (and then you get reimbursed by the consignor with sweaty palms)...yeah I understand the end game..no one was hurt because he wouldn't of consigned the card in the first place without assurances he would get a certain amount or get the card back..but when there was no agreement to a reserve and he still consigned the card anyway, that's an easy sign to know that the auction house is corrupt (and tip of the iceberg stuff) I don't know why you would be a part of it....maybe for this item no one got hurt but this sort of collusion probably occurred on other items with other shillers and people were victimized....but allowing to be used as pawns gave incentive to the auction house to look for other pawns out there..

again i understand no one got hurt this time..but sometimes bad things are done many times but only one time they get caught for it....though you always hear it on 'to catch a predator' it was their first time they ever did this...

I don't think you are part of the hobby problem at all..i think personally you are a great asset for the hobby and i am sure everyone would agree....i would bid on any of your ebay auctions if you had any with no hesitation.. you also are a great resource on knowledge on cards...i hope its doesn't look like i am bashing you...i just commenting.....also you are mentioned like the very very least out of the 100s of other names on there

Can't make this stuff up...
 

...you gotta love this dirty hobby.

Reluctant To Accept...
 

That Mrs. Steinbach knowingly participated in this "Low Rent" endeavor. And I wonder who this douche Les Perline is that is so frequently associated with her bidding. I certainly could be naive or confused but I've had a few conversations with Henny and her deceased husband Don and these revelations don't seem to match up with those folks. Could it be a stretch to think that "Higher Up's" could have exploited her account?
What about the CPA engaging in this ongoing horror show? They are held to a very high ethical standard in their profession. I assumed that would carry over to one's personal life. I was, in other years, a bidder/winner on 3 lots and most likely got nicked.

As I thought of it, if Ron had not consigned the set at all, or if there had been a reserve or an opening bid at the reserve level, nobody could have won it for less than one bid above mine anyhow. So your hypothetical is not real, as I see it. But as I said, I do understand there are other ways to look at it.

CU Thread...Poof. Not sure why. Disappointing.

Gone...
 

....in two shakes of a lamb's tail

There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

nah was more than 5 nanoseconds

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have owned it, unlike anyone else so far who is on that list. I disagree with your opinion, as I see it this was not at anyone else's expense, please see my response to Rick.

yeah I agree he has owned it...it over now...we can take the pitchforks to the other villages now. (the other guys on the list)....there may be frankenstein out there to grab but peter would barely be a reprint of part of a shoelace on Frankenstein,, if that..

Yea I'm not seeing any gray area. Should just admit you made a mistake and move on. Everyone does something they regret once in a while.