Ripped off by a James Spence lifetime guarantee
 

Wanted to share an experience I had with an autographed baseball I purchased from a dealer who bought it from James Spence. The ball came with a letter offering a lifetime guarantee.

http://stangelbros.com/2014/09/17/ri...ime-guarantee/

Eric

well it seems to me the issue is not with jsa the company it said the ball was no good that was what the guy who bought it sent it to them for, i dont really see the ball so lets just say it is no good, so at that jsa did ecxactly what they were paid to do . whoever you bought from names millwich? or whatever that doesnt matter he is a nobody anyway , but the issue is with james spence the dealer who wrote the lifetime deal, well at the end of drawn out letter and story it says he reached out and said he would work it out. maybe i am missing something but that is what he should and is doing. i just dont see at least yet how thats not holding up the guarantee , maybe i read it wrong. he didnt say something like i am no longer a dealer and deals off he said you guys would work it out . i wouldnt throw him under the bus yet. but like most of these post and websites it is just another way to try and discredit somebody . but again maybe i am wrong

The issue to me is that a ball which originated with a James Spence letter, which was sold by James Spence was then rejected by James Spence's company, and then his company said they have nothing to do with the lifetime guarantee. I would have to go to James Spence to talk about that, who happens to be the owner of the company.

You don't see anything unusual about that sequence of events?

That said, I am encouraged that James Spence did eventually reach out to me after his company told me that they couldn't talk to me since I didn't submit the ball to JSA. Let's hope he does the right thing and I have good news to report.

no it is two seperate companies and the letter was written over 20 years ago , sure a mistake was made then or by whoever at jsa said it was no good , if maybe it is actually good , what i see as strange is posting this before the person who wrote the letter has not been given a chance to make it right ,if most people saw that you had taken this to a public forum before you allowed them to make it right they would tell you to eat it . be thankful he responded and if you want to be a "dealer" then you have to eat a turd ever so often , maybe this was your turd , and if you want to be a big dog seller then you shouldnt have to look at the letter anyway , and know enough to buy a legit stengel and not look at some letter anybody wrote and some type guarantee, i see stuff with you name it certs and if it is no good i dont buy . simple deal , everybody wants to be a dealer

2013 - 2 posts regarding your wax pack complaints
2014 - 2 posts regarding your baseball complaints
2015 - ???

Perhaps we should start a poll as to what you will rejoin us for to complain about in 2015

I saw your listing. I was surprised ebay let you sell that. Pretty obvious forgery.

Is there any way to prove the ball in question is actually the same one the original Spence letter documented? There was over a decade in-between the drafting of that letter and your purchase.

Agreed, is there anything tying the ball to the letter?

Also, the ball in question is clearly forged.

There is a much longer thread about this over in another forum where Eric is a much more extensive poster. It might shed additional light on the matter.

Apparently Spence only reached out to Eric once Eric had gone public with this.

And it's a Stengel ball. What's it gonna cost him?

It's not like it was, say, a forged 1927 Yankees ball that he once authenticated. :rolleyes:

OK then that would be a different story if he tried to resolve it and he just avoided him , but a previous post brought up something i thought of as well. unless the letter had a image or marked ball there is nothing to tie the ball to the letter , almost like a auction letter . this was pre sticker , photo letter etc . like i said before in this business you take one of the chin ever so often , and if you want to buy and sell you better have some knowledge of what you are doing and not go on anybodys letter or card , i would not have bought that ball even if it had a present day jsa full letter

That's how I feel about it as well. A JSA letter means nothing to me, even if it has a photo of the item, but without a photo the letter should be worthless even to those who put confidence in letters.

But the problem with COA's for any product is that you should be able to trust them - their entire purpose is to give a customer confidence where he would otherwise have none. Even worse for JSA and PSA items, as those two companies are considered the best, and do huge amounts of business with high-dollar items, which allows them to point to such items and give their buyers even more false confidence.

Collectors like us should know better, but folks on the edge of autograph collecting might have to take a few lumps as you pointed out. Not fair, but that's how it is.

As I mentioned in the longer article, JSA had originally told me they wouldn't talk to me about it because James Spence the person wrote the guarantee, not JSA.

The good news is, I just spoke to James Spence on the phone and he agreed to return my money. I want to thank him for doing the right thing here.
Eric

Eric, thanks for embarrassing him into doing the right thing. It's a good precedent for future victims.

So the bottom line is that the person did the right thing and honored his lifetime guarantee even after being thrown under the bus in a public forum. I would suggest in the future to possibly ask the person privately before being going public, but that wouldn't allow you to post on your web site.

It's in the original link - you must have missed it.

Strange that it took a public flogging to get a just outcome? I think not. Sometimes you need to shine a light into the corners to get the roaches to scurry.

"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."--Louis Brandeis

if the original link was that stangel brothers or whatever that is it was posted there the 17th , and posted on here the 18th ,who knows how long it went before that though , i doubt anybody was bullied into giving the money back , would have been just as easy to say that balls fake and i never sold it , and the letter went with another baseball. whatever time he spent with jsa the company doesnt matter here , they didnt write the letter. if spence refunded it then give the guy a hand for doing the right thing and take a second from the ole bash the tpa

i mean some of you guys just wont be happy, he doesnt refund it and he is a scum bag , if he refunds it then it was only because he was forced to in some stupid forum , and he really is a bad guy and doesnt know anything but the power of the public forum got to him so chalk another up to the crusaders

Well, I did read the original link and I would encourage you to read it closer. It says he contacted JSA not James Spence. Yes he is part owner, but he could have just spoken with an employee. Obviously when Spence sold the ball, he was his own entity. Speak with the person Spence and don't expect some employee that has nothing to do with a former business to discuss something they had nothing to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an apologist for the TPA system. I think they make mistakes, but common sense dictates that if you have a problem with a person, speak to that person first. The OP did not do business with JSA, he did business with Spence. I get tired of the stupidity that is TPA bashing. It's an opinion, if you don't like it don't use it. If you are relying solely on their letter, pull your head out of your ass and use some common sense.

Common sense would also say that if an employee of a company named 'James Spence Authentication' said that a lifetime guarantee on a ball authenticated by 'James Spence' was not going to be honored, then that employee was given that line as part of the company's policy;i.e-by James Spence. If not, that employee should be fired.

But I agree that the OP should have found a way to speak with James Spence prior to posting a thread about this - at least until he reached the conclusion that James Spence was avoiding him.

I think we are in agreement that "If you are relying solely on their letter, pull your head out of your ass and use some common sense."

lol...in a sad way.

it would be assumtion that when the submitter sent to jsa he included the spence letter from 1993 , and if he did then hats off to whoever failed it even with the letter , just too many facts left off , but that is a important one , still i dont care what anybody says james spence show off collectibles is not tied to jsa. when spence joined psa/dna he sold them his retail inventory i believe and stopped doing sales business anyway

I did try to ask Spence privately. Not sure where you are getting this from. Did you read the original article? I had reached out to Spence to give him the chance to make this right. JSA had said they won't speak to me. They also said that the letter was written by Spence and not JSA so they had nothing to do with it.

You said you called JSA, not James Spence. JSA is a company with more than James Spence as an owner. If you had called, asked to speak to James Spence Jr and / or specifically sent James Spence Jr (the person) emails without response I would be inclined to agree with you more. JSA the company owes you nothing. Deal with the person you have an issue with

This all bull. Bottom line when Spence was Spence he authenticated a ball that has his life time guarantee on it. He is alive and well and worth a lot more now than then. If he did not know what he was doing in 1993 he should pay for his mistake. By not doing so it just proves what his word means. NOTHING:o:o

Well, he did pay for it. Maybe you should read a little closer too. You guys just don't get it. You guys are always right and never make mistakes, yet are always first to point out everyone else's mistakes. It's an opinion. If you don't like their opinion, don't use it.

Jason, that is beautifully written - your insight and logic in the above post is something that should be a model for anyone defending a TPA, or any other business with current or potential customers who question their product.

He called JSA to get in touch with Spence (the JS in JSA). I mean, if you wanted to get in touch with James Spence, wouldn't you call JSA???

They wouldn't put him in touch with JS, so he caused a ruckus on the forums. Then suddenly JS is ready to talk? Sounds like Eric did the right thing.

And then JS did the right thing.

bingo , it is what drives 50% of the discussion on these boards , crusaders . spence could have done no right , it was a losing deal, and on top of it who knows what this guy is making up or telling the truth about , life with tpa is what it is , but what would life be like without tpa? well for one the guy who bought the stengel ball would be the proud owner still of the ball. people talk about all that is bad on ebay ? what if there was nobody to send it to ? not even to send it to, but be a option that will keep some people from listing? it would be the wild west , there is also a option for anybody here or any place else to get a office , print business cards and authenticate , but the difference will be their rears would be on the line and on hauls of shame and all that nonsense , vs chiming in on a message board on how they agree something is bad. oh yeah they goof a ton but i believe the percent is pretty low vs volume done . and it is a business and it is what people want . when psa/dna certs like 20000 pieces at the national i would think some folks are on board, well my soapbox is over , but going back to like line one the whole thing boils down to do not take any cert as gospel

No, I'm just not an "expert." He didn't have to put a lifetime guarantee on it originally. He believed in his opinion enough to do so.

And I did contact the place where James Spence works to talk to him about this ball and was told that since I did not submit the ball when it got rejected, they would not talk to me.

You may be right about some of the things you said. But there's nothing wrong with the "crusaders" that drive many of the discussions on here. At least there are folks out there that try to help the less-knowledgeable and give their opinions without collecting a dime. I agree that many of the TPAs and the authenticators are moving targets on here, but let's face it...they make a lot of money doing something that is questionable and many of the certs out there are VERY questionable on many items. So, I don't feel sorry for them. This hobby is full of the worst POS's there can be, and so many of the crusaders' methods can be pretty viscous when they attack somebody, but I think that's because many of us collectors have been burned at least several times in our past and everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

By the way, I think I have bought items from you before (mostly FDCs)...you have a great inventory! ;)

thanks i look forward to seeing you back email if you need anything , it is a slippery slope , for what the tpa miss and dont know i read here all the time and the opinions that people inject are way worse, in my opinion, for example i read a thread on wayne stivers and how all chimed in what a good guy and good stuff he had and on and on , and anybody who knows anything about this stuff , i mean pre psa jsa or whatever knows if he had a good autograph it may have been by accident. so all chime in and say if it has his cert it is good as gold , this is way more dangerous than people think. i just had to say something then some guys who actually know said yeah his stuff was bogus . if people would just try and learn some of this stuff on their own , use some common sense , use known tpa examples , google stuff , start a file of signatures , people do not see what jsa and psa/dna have when they cert stuff , both have a file with hundreds or more of almost anybody ranked in year order they have clubhouse exemplars , wives , secretarials , fakes . that alone is way more than 99.99% of anybody including me can pull out when offering a opinion, yes they get paid but until you sit around and watch lets say jsa cert stuff people have no clue , sure they thumb through bench seaver unitas etc, you throw in roger maris it is looked at to make sure it is live ink, photograhed and sent to at least 3 people and scored , then it still has to pass big jim , if they are wrong after that then it is wrong. something special fails and it is photographed and added to a file , and this is why these boards can be dangerous on this subject because most people have no clue coming here asking stuff and they just see what a trainwreck all the tpa are , and that wayne stivers certs are a gold mine and never even make a effort to understand what they are buying , heck that should be one of the finer points of their hobby , bottom line know what you are buying and selling and stop just falling back on certs

Yes, after he was forced into doing it. Twiter, Espn, other blogs and on here. There are times when you just have to do the right thing at the right time. He did not do that. Trust me there is not a person on this site that hasn't made mistakes when it comes to authenticateing. We at least admit it.

Wow! What a rant. "Imagine the hobby w/o TPAs! What would we do? OMG, who would we send things to? Who would protect us? Who would save us? And, besides, they do a fine job.

But, remember... no matter what they say, you can't really believe it."

LOL

heck i have so much crap i bought a auction lot of postcards and sent a bench to psa/dna looked fine to me , came back in a holder and next day get a email it is a preprinted job , just happened i hope nobody here thinks i was out to get them , just didnt pay attention and neither did psa/dna , ended it and move on and add that to the watch list

JimStinson
 

Probably off topic
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Vintage autographs for sale Now
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I'm not trying to come to anyone's defense, but how do we know that this is the same ball that Spence wrote the COA for? Because the other dealer said so?

JimStinson
 

because he has already given a refund maybe that's a clue ...the other option is to pay to have Spence's letter authenticated ...maybe he didn't write it and its a forgery ...lets keep it real
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What a stupid question. Not one person includeing Spence has denied he did the authentication. It just took him way to long to admit for the first time I know of that he made a mistake. That was because he had no way out. If it was one of us that did not have the connections to make him look bad it would have never happened.
Every time you see a piece come down at an auction that he did. Do you ever see them say he made a mistake? Have all of you that have come to his defence ever see him admit a mistake. If so please show me.:(

Like I stated in my earlier post, I wasn't looking to come to anyone's defense. Both JSA and PSA have made their mistakes. I was just simply raising the question.

I rarely collect autographs and also was trying to get information about unopened wax. If you're saying I'm not adding much to this board, you're welcome to come read the gameusedforum.com site I established years ago which since merged with game used universe.
You're welcome to read my 2,670 posts over there.

Eric, this is Net54. Hopefully you aren't planning a hostile takeover.

I like Net54 a lot. It's what originally inspired the game used forum. The only thing hostile here are some of the posters. (Calm down, it's a joke.)

I'm a photo expert, and the reason why I'm always hesitant about 'LOA' writing is I consider the payment to be for my learned opinion about something. I'm not an insurance or bonding company, nor would I ever want to be an insurance or bonding company. I'm a photo historian who knows something about photos. If accepting $10 for my opinion means I'm now forever financially responsible for a $30,000 item, forget it. That doesn't seem like a winning bet. Keep your $10, and I'll keep my opinion to myself. If you want the item insured for $30000 go to an insurance company. They probably know nothing about photos, but maybe they'll write you out a $30,000 insurance policy. That's not my business, nor would I advertise it as my business. I think this whole hobby deal of getting a LOA as a form of financial insurance is dubious from both sides and from many angles. A letter of opinion is one person's or company's opinion, and it should be treated that way by both sides. Now, if a company such as PSA says they're also insuring the value, I guess that's an additional service, but one that I think actually corrupts the expert opinion process. When you pay someone just for his honest opinion, you'll get his honest opinion. If you place a $30,000 Sword of Damocles over his head and ask for his opinion, assume the sword will effect the opinion. People complain that PSA and PSA/DNA don't admit their mistakes (and I for one it's totally ridiculous for an authentication company to not yet admit the Gretzky T206 Wagner is trimmed when even the person who trimmed it has admitted in court that it's trimmed and that he trimmed it), but that's in major if not total part because they've assumed financially responsibility and will have to pay out when they admit they're wrong. As I said, the value insurance part and getting an honest opinion counter to each other, and the insurance part corrupts the opinion part.

A LOA is an opinion and should be treated as such. If you value the person's knowledge and opinion and believe he will be honest in is opinion, and know that others think that as well, then his opinion in writing may be worth $10 or $20 to you. An LOA should be about the imparting of knowledge-- an academic thing. Insurance lawyers, underwriters and accountants should't be involved in the composition of the letter-- that is if collector's concern really is about the honest dissemination of knowledge. In fact, a collector who truly and honestly wants an honest opinion about authenticity should say "I'm paying you $20, and this $20 is only and strictly for you to examine this item and give me an honest knowledgeable opinion what it is. That is the only thing this money is going for." If you do that, then you will be getting what LOA are supposed to be about.

Now, it's a different situations with things I sell. Clearly I'm financially responsible to the buyer if it turns out to be a fake. If I make an error in identification, of course a refund is warranted. And clearly if I offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with something I sell, theres' a lifetime guarantee.

stop!! that is making too much sense and it wont fit into the equation . but it is exactly the point if they are offering a opinion , until futher notice or somebody else comes along it is what the hobby accepts , again anybody is more than welcome to print up business cards and start a service, if the tpa are proven wrong as a example ball turns out made after death then they should refund the fees , but like you said if they accept 10.00 and are held responsible for 1000 item it is a bad deal and more than likely nothing will pass . in the case way back on page one however if you issue a seller loa lifetime guarnatee then you are responsible , like most reputable sellers do pay up or end up in this mess , but i question how spence had a chance to make it right before getting posted . and my point earlier is that these boards can do some harm as well as good because some of these opinions are a joke

This is RICH Jim. Coming from someone who knows autographs and hooked up with Jimmy Spence and others to form PSA/DNA authentication. TPA's are no good for anyone, but it was OK for you in the past when you weregetting paid. Come on. Kirk and I are drinking the Kool-Aid. That's a good one. I could give one flying fuck what happens to Jimmy Spence truthfully, I am giving my truthful opinion about the situation. As was Kirk. You don't even give your opinion anymore, you just come in and accuse us of drinking the Kool-aid.

And for the others on here, maybe they have something against TPA's for another reason. I believe someone got their dick slammed in the door (or cell door) with the assistance of third party authentication. Without an expert, am I supposed to believe that these people knowingly selling forgeries (making tons of cash) would have just stopped because they felt bad and turned over a new leaf. HELL NO!!!! Without people attempting to clean things up a little, guppies that swim in the deep end would have collections full of garbage. Probably me included. Although, I guess they / I still do if we happen to do business with anyone but Jim Stinson. Short of that, everyone is an idiot and cannot have a differing opinion.

I'm SO tired of the "I got robbed by an object that came with PSA or JSA authentication" line of shit. Oh, whoa is me and my 1927 Yankees ball. I thought you were so fucking smart and the only preeminent Ruth and Gehrig expert in the hobby. How did you ever make a mistake as you see everything like it's yesterday's news. It should have been a glaring red flag like all the other stuff you look at and act like everyone should know better when they ask about a Ruth signature opinion.


He called JSA to get in touch with Spence (the JS in JSA). I mean, if you wanted to get in touch with James Spence, wouldn't you call JSA???

They wouldn't put him in touch with JS, so he caused a ruckus on the forums. Then suddenly JS is ready to talk? Sounds like Eric did the right thing.

In regards to the OP, nowhere in your post did you say you asked to speak with Jimmy Spence and were denied. You mention that you spoke with someone there that would not help or refund your money. If you mentioned that in one of your other many blogs about being ripped off, than I am mistaken. Bottom line, you got your money back and everything worked out hunky dory.

BTW, I see some cry baby made Kirk add his name to his post because it must have been too inflammatory. Oh boy!

ALL YOU CAN SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, I AM GIVING AN HONEST OPINION GIVEN THE SITUATION. I DON'T HAVE TO PUT OTHER PEOPLE DOWN TO MAKE MYSELF FEEL BETTER OR MAKE MY COLLECTION SEEM BETTER.

Oh, that's no joke!

I read your posts on GUU, where I don't post much. Everyone over there has treated me well, but like you over here, there just isn't much for me to talk about over there. When I talk game-used, I feel kind of dumb (because I am).

I did really want to discuss a game-used screwing that someone recently took, and doesn't even yet know about, but I was afraid I would get the virtual hell beat out of me. Yeah, by pure coincidence, the vintage guy knows about someone unknowingly taking a $1,500 screwing. And I have some lovely photo evidence as well.

Right on the money, but I suppose David is drinking the Kool-Aid too because he authenticated a couple of photos at the National. David, watch out you might be next.

But your opinions are not the ones that are jokes, right?

Just trying to get it straight who has the right to voice an opinion in a discussion forum, and who doesn't.