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-   -   Was Steve Carlton a racist and anti semite? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=254799)

Chuck9788 05-08-2018 09:36 AM

Was Steve Carlton a racist and anti semite?
 
I've read that HOF pitcher Steve Carlton was labeled as a racist and anti semite.

I've also read that he strongly denied the allegations.


Could anyone please help clear this issue up for me?

D. Bergin 05-08-2018 11:11 AM

A cursory look at Carlton on Google shows that perhaps he was/is a bit of a crackpot conspiracy theorist and he preferred to throw to Tim McCarver rather then Bob Boone.

Other then that, I would guess only people who really know him would know the answer to that, as he's been pretty tight-lipped throughout his life.

pclpads 05-08-2018 11:38 AM

A blanket allegation like that on a public forum such as this, implies - for the world to see - that he was both. If he was neither, you have done him a grave injustice, smearing his name, that a later, "Gosh, I was wrong and I'm sorry," would never correct. To make such an unattributed charge, you need to first cite your source(s) and not a "I've read that . . ." For that matter, why is it important if he was either and why does it matter to you?

Steve D 05-08-2018 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pclpads (Post 1774574)
A blanket allegation like that on a public forum such as this, implies - for the world to see - that he was both. If he was neither, you have done him a grave injustice, smearing his name, that a later, "Gosh, I was wrong and I'm sorry," would never correct. To make such an unattributed charge, you need to first cite your source(s) and not a "I've read that . . ." For that matter, why is it important if he was either and why does it matter to you?


+1

At an absolute minimum, this seems like one of those posts where the person should be required to post their real name, as opposed to hiding behind a forum id.

Steve

packs 05-08-2018 02:48 PM

These allegations come from an article Pat Jordan wrote years ago for Philadelphia magazine. Carlton said he never said what he was quoted as saying. No comments on the comments but I enjoyed Pat Jordan's book "A False Spring" and he has been a member of the media and sports journalism for a long time.

I was able to track down the original article text: https://thestacks.deadspin.com/thin-...d-co-478492324

Chuck9788 05-08-2018 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve D (Post 1774652)
+1

At an absolute minimum, this seems like one of those posts where the person should be required to post their real name, as opposed to hiding behind a forum id.

Steve

The original post was a fair question. My name is Chuck, why would my full name be important in any way?!?


Carlton Denies He Made Anti-Semitic Comments
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-04-..._steve-carlton


Pitcher and Reporter Are at Odds over Alleged Anti-semitic Remarks
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-04-..._steve-carlton


Carlton denies anti-Semitic comments, apologizes
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/04...2772766296000/

JMEnglish27 05-08-2018 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck9788 (Post 1774678)
The original post was a fair question. My name is Chuck, why would my full name be important in any way?!?

Because you're using his.

clydepepper 05-08-2018 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigj7489 (Post 1774689)
Because you're using his.



That's okay, we'll just call you, appropriately, Chuck 'n Duck!

CW 05-08-2018 05:34 PM

Chuck, the OP, did not give his opinion of Steve Carlton, did he? He's just asking a question.

sincerely,
Chuck
:)

ALR-bishop 05-09-2018 06:59 AM

All I know about Mr Carlton is that the Cardinals had him and somehow thought trading him for Rick "Wise" was a good idea. :(

Leon 05-09-2018 07:34 AM

+1
Quote:

Originally Posted by CW (Post 1774699)
Chuck, the OP, did not give his opinion of Steve Carlton, did he? He's just asking a question.

sincerely,
Chuck
:)


clydepepper 05-09-2018 08:03 AM

I read somewhere that Jim Palmer used to wet his bed.

Peter_Spaeth 05-09-2018 08:53 AM

Well, he was an oenophile.:eek:

seanofjapan 05-09-2018 08:54 AM

So after reading the articles linked to, am I to understand that the only evidence to back any of this up is a single comment allegedly made 25 years ago, which Carlton denies having made, basically just referencing some nut job conspiracy theory, to a reporter who himself says Carlton is definitely not racist or anti Semitic?

It’s pretty thin.

Snapolit1 05-09-2018 03:32 PM

Guy has been the subject of a number of articles in the LA Times and someone thinks it's unfair that a simple question was asked on this colleting board? Weird response in people getting all defensive for Steve Carlton. Same question is asked about prominent public figures every day in the press.

ALR-bishop 05-09-2018 04:31 PM

Appreciate you injecting a political inference into the thread. Well done.

Cliff Bowman 05-09-2018 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1775040)
Appreciate you injecting a political inference into the thread. Well done.

+1

Leon 05-09-2018 08:38 PM

sigh, no politics please

frankbmd 05-09-2018 09:31 PM

I have reason to suspect Mario Andretti.

Snapolit1 05-09-2018 09:31 PM

Modified accordingly.

Peter_Spaeth 05-09-2018 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd (Post 1775158)
I have reason to suspect Mario Andretti.

He and Carlton were contemporaries.

mq711 05-10-2018 06:53 AM

In his playing days, Carlton was anti-press and not very fond of autograph collectors but has mellowed with age.

steve B 05-10-2018 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1774874)
+1

So it's sort of like jeopardy?
We can dodge that rule by making any opinion be in the form of a question?

Good to know.

ALR-bishop 05-10-2018 09:08 AM

Is Steve being sarcastic here ? :)

Leon 05-10-2018 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1775250)
So it's sort of like jeopardy?
We can dodge that rule by making any opinion be in the form of a question?

Good to know.

Sure thing....dodge until I see it. The way I read it the OP asked a legitimate question and didn't give an opinion of a person or company.

D. Bergin 05-10-2018 10:32 AM

LOL, I guess this begs the question, can one be an Anti-Semite, without being a racist and visa versa?

I think I know the answer and nearly all the possible responses, but let the chicken and the egg scenarios begin. :D

I apologize ahead of time for stirring up sh*t in this thread. :cool:

D. Bergin 05-10-2018 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1775270)
Is Steve being sarcastic here ? :)

Steve the Poster or Steve the Carlton?

ALR-bishop 05-10-2018 11:07 AM

Yes:)

Michael B 05-10-2018 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin (Post 1775296)
LOL, I guess this begs the question, can one be an Anti-Semite, without being a racist and visa versa?

I think I know the answer and nearly all the possible responses, but let the chicken and the egg scenarios begin. :D

I apologize ahead of time for stirring up sh*t in this thread. :cool:

I would say absolutely. Judaism is not a race. Additionally, what would prevent someone who is Jewish from being intolerant of someone who is Asian, Black, Latino etc.?

steve B 05-10-2018 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1775288)
Sure thing....dodge until I see it. The way I read it the OP asked a legitimate question and didn't give an opinion of a person or company.

Well, I usually don't do that, so no worries here.

To me the question came across as odd, since I wasn't aware of any controversy. I suppose someone running across that old article might have questions. It just seemed odd at first.

Paul S 05-10-2018 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mq711 (Post 1775220)
In his playing days, Carlton was anti-press and not very fond of autograph collectors but has mellowed with age.

Well, if you read the "old" article he's doing it for income.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1775407)
Well, I usually don't do that, so no worries here.

To me the question came across as odd, since I wasn't aware of any controversy. I suppose someone running across that old article might have questions. It just seemed odd at first.

Struck me as odd too, if you take the article at face value. How much can anybody know about Carlton w/o reading about and trusting what the authors' write is not 'embellished'?

Also, although the OP's question was innocent he's relying on the opinion of others' who actually have the nerve to post a full name in their replies:)

Leon 05-10-2018 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul S (Post 1775448)
Well, if you read the "old" article he's doing it for income.


Struck me as odd too, if you take the article at face value. How much can anybody know about Carlton w/o reading about and trusting what the authors' write is not 'embellished'?

Also, although the OP's question was innocent he's relying on the opinion of others' who actually have the nerve to post a full name in their replies:)

Yeah, like you?
.

packs 05-11-2018 08:01 AM

I have no opinion on Carlton but as a fellow writer I want to point out that Pat Jordan was/is a very prominent sports journalist and it would be highly unusual for him to make something up in one of his articles.

Paul S 05-11-2018 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1775535)
Yeah, like you?
.

I was wondering who would the first. I'm glad it was you. All fixed now.

Exhibitman 05-13-2018 01:14 PM

Well we've always known Carlton was odd; seems he's gone round the bend to weird. Also sounds like he should take advantage of the laws in CO and smoke a bowl or two...

clydepepper 05-13-2018 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 1776326)
Well we've always known Carlton was odd; seems he's gone round the bend to weird. Also sounds like he should take advantage of the laws in CO and smoke a bowl or two...



...and invite Goose to join him...

pokerplyr80 05-13-2018 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1775288)
Sure thing....dodge until I see it. The way I read it the OP asked a legitimate question and didn't give an opinion of a person or company.

Asking a question like that is close enough to stating an opinion or making an accusation. I wouldn't want anyone starting a thread like that, that questions my integrity, especially if they were allowed to remain anonymous. And I'm pretty sure Mr. Carlton would feel the same way if he ever stumbled upon this site and thread.

1952boyntoncollector 05-13-2018 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CW (Post 1774699)
Chuck, the OP, did not give his opinion of Steve Carlton, did he? He's just asking a question.

sincerely,
Chuck
:)

When did you stop beating your wife hitting is also a question.

Just asking a questions isnt' just asking when one of the answers would mean you are a socially unacceptable person...

or like when my wife asks me, what are you doing this weekend? i always afraid to answer because one of the answers may be wrong..

Peter_Spaeth 05-14-2018 07:04 AM

I still don't get the notion of hiding behind a screen name. On a forum discussing health issues, sure, there's a privacy concern. But baseball cards?

Leon 05-14-2018 07:14 AM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am pretty sure you can't say how someone else will feel because you aren't them.
And, as always is done and evidenced by precedent, if this thread had your name in the title I would send you the name of the OP privately. That has been done in numerous other instances. IF Steve asks me for the OPs full name I will tell him. Same if it was about you, I would tell you. Everyone, imo, has a right to know who is saying stuff in their direction but mandating a full name is a bit more invasive and not required unless an opinion is given. A question probably won't require a full name.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1776556)
Asking a question like that is close enough to stating an opinion or making an accusation. I wouldn't want anyone starting a thread like that, that questions my integrity, especially if they were allowed to remain anonymous. And I'm pretty sure Mr. Carlton would feel the same way if he ever stumbled upon this site and thread.


Exhibitman 05-14-2018 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 1776362)
...and invite Goose to join him...

Nah, Goose is more of the crazy old man shouting angrily at the rain.

CW 05-14-2018 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1776589)
I still don't get the notion of hiding behind a screen name. On a forum discussing health issues, sure, there's a privacy concern. But baseball cards?

Well, since you asked I can give one good reason for not disclosing your name on a forum like this: continuously posting expensive baseball cards from one's collection could potentially open oneself up for future theft or attempted burglary, even if you do not keep your cards in the home.

I believe it was Lionel Carter who once said once your collection gets large and has some value, it becomes difficult to share it with others because you are not sure who to trust.

packs 05-14-2018 02:19 PM

There are also unhinged people in the world who can do a lot of damage with a name and some locally identifying details. Everyone's employer is only an e-mail away and people are free to make up anything they want.

the 'stache 05-17-2018 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CW (Post 1776725)
I believe it was Lionel Carter who once said once your collection gets large and has some value, it becomes difficult to share it with others because you are not sure who to trust.

Coincidentally, Chuck, I watched the video Mastro produced about Lionel Carter's collection just a couple of nights ago (I probably watch it two or three times a year). Mr. Carter referenced that very thing. Here he had this fantastic collection, a veritable history of the sport and the hobby, yet he couldn't show anybody outside of his most trusted inner circle because of theft concerns. A good portion of his collection was stolen, despite his caution, but most of it was eventually found by the police.

The video makes for a stark contrast. Mr. Carter was such a class act, yet when I see Bill Mastro speaking, it makes my skin crawl.

Peter_Spaeth 05-17-2018 08:12 PM

Now more than ever, I believe there was more to that theft than met the eye. And as I recall the collection was returned intact, not recovered by the police.

ronniehatesjazz 05-17-2018 08:15 PM

I know it’s the water cooler section but I really wish the whole subject of racism/sexsim/politics would be off limits here. I get bombarded by it 24/7... television, work, school, family dinners, I’m even subjected to it at the grocery store checkout where I have nothing to stare at but tabloids as I’m stuck in line due to some poor chap having to be both a cashier and bag boy. Also the whole topic has became like some cheesy 80’s drama. Let’s all just talk about our feelings when it’s truly all about posturing to inflate one’s own ego. Just disgraceful IMO and the whole message is lost. Sorry for ranting but it’s just so frustrating to constantly have it thrown into your face and even more tiring and depressing that you can forecast the responses verbatim.

gopherfan 05-19-2018 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz (Post 1777894)
I know it’s the water cooler section but I really wish the whole subject of racism/sexsim/politics would be off limits here. I get bombarded by it 24/7... television, work, school, family dinners, I’m even subjected to it at the grocery store checkout where I have nothing to stare at but tabloids as I’m stuck in line due to some poor chap having to be both a cashier and bag boy. Also the whole topic has became like some cheesy 80’s drama. Let’s all just talk about our feelings when it’s truly all about posturing to inflate one’s own ego. Just disgraceful IMO and the whole message is lost. Sorry for ranting but it’s just so frustrating to constantly have it thrown into your face and even more tiring and depressing that you can forecast the responses verbatim.

I really like your avatar.:)

ronniehatesjazz 05-19-2018 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopherfan (Post 1778345)
I really like your avatar.:)

Haha, well touche! It's more a play on the 80's than anything else... I'm surprised the username and avatar don't ring a bell for anyone on here.

glynparson 05-20-2018 08:02 AM

I agree 100%
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1776589)
I still don't get the notion of hiding behind a screen name. On a forum discussing health issues, sure, there's a privacy concern. But baseball cards?

I agree, if you don't have any conviction in what you are saying don't say it. Even if you are anonymous or if your name is out there.

Paul S 05-20-2018 09:11 AM

Notion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1776589)
I still don't get the notion of hiding behind a screen name. On a forum discussing health issues, sure, there's a privacy concern. But baseball cards?

Here's one "notion" that may not have occurred to many. First off, I have been a board member since the days of the old software platform. The only reason my join date is 2011 is that I took about 18 months off during the changeover, and so some of my data, post count, etc., did not carry over.

During almost all of this period, my son was being victimized through most of his school years. If it wasn't verbal abuse, it was, for example, tossing his new gym sneakers into a toilet bowl full of feces. These were not rare occurrences - it was incessant. AND, these sort of things carried over to social media. (it was all heartbreaking, to say the least, and still is today). So, I kept my full name off my posts, as it would have been easy pickins for the cretins to look me up and phuck with my son even more.

I am happy to report that this all ended when he entered college. Hence I am a bit overdue in finally using my full name. (Anyway, at least 100 members have known my name through the BST, private deals or just plain community friendship). Hence, I gotta lotta opinions stored up after all this time so all youse (sic) better watch out!:D:)

And so, I have to believe there are many anons here that have legit reasons, if not exactly my own, to be so on a baseball card forum:cool:


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