WWII BB cards....1943 M. P. & Co....Show us your cards
 

The Michael Pressner & Co. issued this 24-card set in 1943. They were sold in Candy stores and 5 & 10-cent Department stores in the form of 8-card strips........


v................................................. .... original uncut 8-card strip (21 1/2 inches long) .................................................. ....v

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ReeseMPx7x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ggioMPx7xx.jpg



Enlarged strip (split scan)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eeseMPx50x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...aggioMPx50.jpg



Cut singles......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DicCooMP50.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nCooMP50bk.jpg



Sure......you could say that these are some crude looking cards; nevertheless, in certain ways you could also say they are sort of unique.


Their ACC designation is R302-1. Which I don't understand, since these cards were not issued with GUM. Anyhow, if you have them, let's
see if we can display all 24 cards here.



TED Z
.

Looks like this one is getting off to a slow start.

Attachment 160752

R302-2

http://luckeycards.com/pr3022mandpstripx4.jpg

I sold mine to a fellow board member not long ago. But I kept some scans.

Geez, Leon, knowing that you own this issue lets me know the hobby revolution has ended:eek:

No revolution on my part, Paul. I just like collecting with my friends!!
Here is a R302-1 from 1943 (as opposed to the R302-2 strip from '49 already shown)

http://luckeycards.com/pr302mandp1943dimaggio.jpg

and they (at least their colors and drawing method) remind me a little bit of a later version of these...

1949 M. P. & Co (R302-2) cards........
 

Since Leon posted a 1949 M.P. & Co. partial strip of cards........let's talk about this subsequent issue.

Six years after the 1943 strip cards were issued, M.P. & Co. produced a similar 25 card series. These cards differ in appearance from the 1943 series, in that the bios
on the backs of these cards are printed in Black ink (instead of Blue ink). And, the sky color on the fronts is a pale light Blue. I guess, they ran out of dark Blue ink :)


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...osPeskMP25.jpg


....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sPeskMP25b.jpg



Hey guys, continue posting your 1943 cards....let's see if we can display all 24 subjects. We have attained the half-way point to this goal with 12 different cards



TED Z
.

I love that set. It's the first "pre-war" set I ever completed, but even that is an issue. Those were the only set of cards issued during the war (other than exhibits) so they aren't technically pre-war.

There were some other sets issued during the war, most aren't well known though...Here are a few Centennial Flour series cards. The top is '43 and the bottom is '44. They issued them in some other years too...

http://luckeycards.com/pf340centennialflour1943.jpg

http://luckeycards.com/pf340centennialflour1944.jpg

Here's Ott, such as he is.

Thanks Paul
 

Now we have 13 different players on display here......11 are remaining to be seen.


TED Z
.

Leon......pardon me if I correct you
 

If your scan here of Joe DiMaggio is it's true colors, then this card is cannot be a 1943 issue.

The sky on the front is not a dark blue and the back printing is not blue; therefore, it must be an R302-2.

DiMaggio's R302-1 and the R302-2 cards' bio is the same; however, the difference is that the R302-2 is numbered #105.

So, I'm confused here as to which series your DiMaggio card is from ?


TED Z
.

Here's Mort Cooper to go with the previously scanned Walker Cooper.

Hi Collectorsince62
 

Thanks for posting your 1943 Cooper brothers cards.

So far, we have identified 14 players from the 1943 set....so, there are 10 more to go to complete the display of all 24.


Continue posting your M.P. & Co. cards, guys.


TED Z
.

One of the first pre-1950 sets I finished, and it wasn't all that easy. Almost all of them are either Authentic, Poor or Fair, except the DiMaggio which is a BVG 4.5.

I don't want to fill out the pictures since I have the set, but here is the Foxx:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...psh7mlyro5.jpg


Also, I have seen variations in back ink color on both the 1943 and 1949 issues. the only consistent I see on the 1949 set is the presence of a card number on the back. I also will note that the orientation of the backs is all over the place.

1943 Checklist........
 

R302-1

Ernie Bonham
Lou Boudreau
Dolf Camilli
Mort Cooper
Walker Cooper
Joe Cronin
Harry Danning
Bill Dickey
Joe DiMaggio
Bob Feller
Jimmy Foxx
Hank Greenberg

Stan Hack
Tommy Henrich
Carl Hubbell
Joe Medwick
Johnny Mize
Lou Novikoff
Mel Ott
Harold Reese
Pete Reiser
Red Ruffing
Johnny Vander Meer
Ted Williams



TED Z
.

I'll clarify my point:
That was the only NATIONAL set issued during the war. Yes, there were minor league sets and a few regional sets, but other than exhibits, The MP&Co is about the only game in town for major league.

GehrigFan

So far, at the current rate of inputs here, I don't think we'll have all 24 cards displayed. So, feel free to show some more of your cards.


I hope you don't mind me correcting your statement ......"the only consistent I see on the 1949 set is the presence of a card number on the back."

There are 4 (or 5) 1949 M.P. & Co. cards that were never printed with card numbers.




TED Z
.

My 1 and only:

http://www.billripken.com/bucket/1943MPFellerSGCA.jpg

Here's my Reese for our virtual set.

Ted,

Since not all the 1949's have numbers on the back, is the best way to tell the difference the color of the text? Blue v. Black. I have a Hank Danning that doesn't have a number but does have black text. Does that mean it's a 1949?

Thanks a lot.

AndyH


.

Another Feller....but different!
 

A little different than the last Bob Feller. The Standard Catalog suggests there could be several different variations of these cards. Can anyone shed any more light on the variations in this set?

Ted Williams MP&Co Research
 

There has been some great discussion regarding the MP&Co sets. I have been researching these sets with regards specifically to Ted Williams. This has kind of been a "passion" of mine as these cards are often felt to be of lesser quality. I have discovered several points that seem to hold true.

1. As TedZan noted, the 1943 front version seems to consistently have a darker sky and lighter colored backstop

2. The 1949 front version is very light blue, with the backstop color almost the same as the sky

3. The ink colors for the backs varied greatly for example (using Ted Williams):
a. The 1943 back versions for Ted come in both a black and dark blue ink. These are very distinctive when held in your hand side-by-side
b. For Ted, there were several spelling errors in both the 1943 and 1949 versions,
i. Including his first name “THEORDORE” vs “THEODORE” on the 1943
ii. Several spelling errors on the 1949, “THEORORE” vs “THEODORE” and in the middle name “FRANCES” vs “FRANCIS”
c. The 1949 back ink was only noted in black to my knowledge (based on Ted Williams)

4. The 1943 versions had the “M. P. & Co., N.Y.C.” at the bottom whereas this was removed for the 1949 version cards

5. The 1949 MP&Co had both a “numbered” version and a “no number” version for many cards. I have seen many PSA/SGC labeled cards with 1943 on the flip when the card is actually a 1949 no number version.

6. The paragraph formation of the 1943 and 1949 sets varied; esp how the player name and position was listed

The photos below illustrate most all of these variations. I own nearly all of these variations for Ted Williams, with the exception the 1943 blue ink back “Theordore”. All my cards are either PSA of SGC graded, from SGC/PSA Authentic x2, PSA1, PSA2.5, PSA5 x2, SGC 5.5.

Please, if there are further discussions on Ted I would love to hear about them. I cannot say what other cards of either set would hold to these "Ted Williams Rules".

Thanks for reading,
Dave

Hi Andy
 

Before I answer your question, let me mention that "Hank" Danning is a typo error. It should read "Harry" Danning.

So, the answer to your question is absolutely NO. Harry Danning exists only in the 1943 set. His Major Lge. career ended in 1942;
therefore, he was not included in the 1949 set.

Contrary to what I've noted in an earlier post here, there appears to be no consistency in the the bio text color in the 1943 cards.
Approx. 95-99 % of the 1943 cards that I have (or have seen) are printed with BLUE ink. On occasion, a BLACK ink 1943 card will surface.

Whatever, it's a strange set.

TED Z
.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7015/...2466c893_o.jpg[url=https://flic.kr/p/aYkdra]

Dave

Great info here on the variations of the Ted Williams cards. Thanks for posting this.

I especially appreciate your........
"5. The 1949 MP&Co had both a “numbered” version and a “no number” version for many cards. I have seen many PSA/SGC labeled
cards with 1943 on the flip when the card is actually a 1949 no number version."

Furthermore,
the Grading Company's are not aware of all the printing anomalies that exist with these cards. For example, my observation of certain 1943 cards
with Pale Blue sky color and lacking Blue ink bio text is simply the result of MP & Co. missing the final BLUE ink application in their printing process.


TED Z
.

Ted,

Thanks for clearing this up for me regarding my Danning card. I appreciate it.

AndyH

WWII BB cards....1943 M. P. & Co....Show us your cards
 

OK guys, with the recent new pictures, we now have 18 subjects of the 24 on display in this thread.
There are only 6 subjects that have yet to be posted, and they are........


Lou Boudreau
Dolph Camilli
Stan Hack
Carl Hubbell
Lou Novikoff
Pete Reiser



TED Z
.

WWII BB cards....1943 M. P. & Co....Show us your cards
 

Here is this 24-card set in it's strip format as it was sold to the public. I acquired the strip (A) shown here 26 years ago for less than $20.
Currently, these uncut 8-card strips in decent condition are selling for anywhere from $500 - $1000.

Strip A........

v................................................. .... original uncut 8-card strip (21 1/2 inches long) .................................................. ....v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ReeseMPx7x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ggioMPx7xx.jpg



Strip B........

MIZE - REISER - HACK - NOVIKOFF - CAMILLI - RUFFING - HUBBELL - GREENBERG


Strip C........

BOUDREAU - M. COOPER - WILLIAMS - DICKEY - FOXX - FELLER - OTT - W. COOPER



TED Z
.

Since Stan Hack has not yet made an appearance, I offer a scan of my copy. It's not a bad scan, the card is actually that bad.

Player Order
 

Ted, the order of players in "Strip C" is:

Boudreau
Mort Cooper
Williams
Dickey
Foxx
Feller
Ott
Walker Cooper

Thank you, Lyman
 

I included your info regarding Strip C in my above post.

Take care my good friend,

TED Z
.

WWII BB cards....1943 M. P. & Co....Show us your cards
 

dlfallen

It looks to me that your Stan Hack card is missing BLUE ink (on both the front and the back).

Otherwise, it's an alright card.....nice find.

Thanks for posting it, we now have only 5 subjects remaining to complete the display of this 24 card set.


TED Z
.

1949 M. P. & Co (R302-2) checklist........
 

100.....Lou Boudreau
101.....Ted Williams
102.....Johnny Kerr
103.....Bob Feller
104..... unknown
105.....Joe DiMaggio
106.....Harold Reese
107.....Ferris Fain
108.....Andy Pafko
109.....Del Ennis
110.....Ralph Kiner
111.....Nippy Jones
112.....Del Rice
113.....Hank Sauer
114.....Gil Coan
115.....Eddie Joost
116.....Alvin Dark
117.....Larry Berra
118..... unknown
119.....Bob Lemon
120..... unknown
121.....Johnny Pesky
122.....Johnny Sain
123.....Hoot Evers
124.....Larry Doby
-------Jimmy Foxx
-------Tommy Henrich
-------Al Kozar


TED Z
.

Here are the 4 very loved cards that I have. I don't know if I am adding any, but I don't recall seeing the Hubbell in this thread.

Hi Mike
 

Thanx for adding the Hubbell card to this display.

Now, there are only 4 remaining subjects to complete this 1943 set........

Lou Boudreau
Dolph Camilli
Lou Novikoff
Pete Reiser



TED Z
.

Boudreau
 

I forgot that I had the Boudreau in another place, so here it is. 3 more to go.

1943 M.P. & Co Back Variations
 

I have a handful of 1943 M.P. & Co Joe DiMaggios and I am trying to figure out the different variations. It seems like the 1949s might either be the numbered versions or the light colored sky versions. I have a variation with teal font type on the back. The only other one I have seen was a previously posted Bob Feller. Also, the version with the player's position (without team name) has a variation with "Made in the USA" and one without. Anyone know anything about these?
Attachment 193038

Attachment 193039

Attachment 193040

Attachment 193041

Attachment 193042

Something well known to collectors of the R302-1 (1943) and R302-2 (1949) sets is that all 24 images from 1943 were recycled to generate the 1949 set.

I just posted an article to the SABR blog that shows you each of the "twins" side by side for the entire set and also provides some bonus background info on the issuer of the sets. Part scholarly, part silly, like most of my stuff, but you may enjoy it.

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2019/...card-set-ever/

.

A better scan of the back

Great looking Teddy!! I may have to pick up a few these they have such a neat look to them.

WWII BB cards....1943 M. P. & Co....Show us your cards
 

Hi Ron (rgpete)

Great looking Ted Williams card.

Ted's middle name is incorrect on his 1943 M. P. & Co. card.
It should be Samuel. Was it corrected on his 1949 card ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

They did not correct in 1949. Just changed Francis to Frances!!

Note that 1940 Play Ball also had Francis error as did many contemporaneous news sources.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

My Proposal of the 1944 M.P.&Co. Set!
 

I’ve been collecting THESE sets for over 10 years. The following are some of my findings and observations. With your help, I hope to further my knowledge of these absolutely crazy sets referred to as M.P.&Co. with the standard catalog designation of R302.

Previous information to date designates two distinct and different sets falling under the R302 category. As of and up to now, these two sets have been differentiated by year, the 1943 set & the 1949 set. However, many examples of these cards have surfaced over time that don’t exactly seem to fit the 1943 set or the 1949 set.

Now, I will discuss the 1943 and 1949 sets for a bit. Both (actually All) of these sets are made up of exactly 24 cards, no more, no less. This is because these sets were printed in sheets. These sheets were made up of three strips of 8 cards each. I know this because rare examples of these 8 card strips have surfaced over time. These 8 card strips are important and we will discuss further as we go. The layout of the sheet, and the three different 8 card strips that make it up, never change as per the positioning of the 24 poses. Now, the names associated to those poses and the dialogue on the back of the card does change, and its these changes/differences which determine the set to which any card falls into.

The cards from the 1943 set are the easiest to determine. These cards ALL have two determining factors which NO card from any of the other two sets have. First, these card’s fronts face to the Right when the dialogue on the back is ‘right side up’. This is opposite (fronts face to the left) on all other cards printed within the R302 category. Note: Again, the dialogue on the back must be ‘right side up’ to determine which way the front faces. Okay, And Second, ALL cards from the 1943 set ALSO have the print:
M.P.&Co.,N.Y.C. Made in U.S.A, on the back at the bottom. These two distinct differences make the 1943 set easy to distinguish from the other R302 cards. Note: Cards from this set exist in both blue and black inked backs and many different print runs appear to have happened as multiple cards from this set can be found in error form as well as in corrected form. (Example: Williams back spelling variation)

The cards from the 1949 set are also not that hard to distinguish. First, there are 22 different *Numbered* cards in this set. Yes, 22 of the 24 cards in this set have a Number on the back. That makes it easy, ANY R302 that has a Number on the back is from the 1949 set, I promise. Okay, the other 2 cards in the 1949 set are Kozar and Henrich and do not have a Number on the back. Again, I know this because of the confirmation of two different UNCUT 1949 strip panels. I own a 1949 8-card uncut strip panel with all Numbered cards on it, except Henrich is on there with no number. Furthermore, in another N54 post in a different thread in 2014 Leon posted a 1949 partial strip of 4 cards containing a Kozar(No number) along with all other Numbered cards. This also goes along the same premise as other early publications regarding this set, like my 1999 Beckett Alamanc for instance. But wait! Its not quite that simple. While, I believe All Kozar cards are from the 1949 set, mainly because that was his Rookie year, all No Numbered Henrich cards are not from the 1949 set. I discovered that two different No Numbered Henrich cards exist. Note: I just say discover because I’ve never read or heard of this difference mentioned anywhere before. Anyhow, Henrich’s 1949 set card is not numbered and contains 5 lines of dialogue on the back of the card. 5 lines of dialogue on the back is important, because the 1944 set card of Henrich is also not numbered, however it contains 8 lines of dialogue on the back with the same note that he is still in the war as his 1943 card. The 1949 set also contained correctional print runs, where a card can be found with an error and also can be found corrected, just like the 1943 set. (Example: Lemon front team name variation)

I now introduce the 1944 set! As previously stated, for years, cards have surfaced that didn’t exactly fit the mold of either a 1943 or a 1949 set card, as described above. That’s because, I believe there was another set printed in 1944. For a long time I had it narrowed down to 1944 or 1945, but today I’m pretty sure it was 1944. I’m not sure where to start with explaining this set, because its complicated. But here goes:

I have Confirmed to exist all 24 cards with a No Number back in a format that does not fit the 1943 set. These 1944 set cards fronts face left, like the 49 set, and NONE of them contain the M.P.&Co. designation on the back, and again they are all Unnumbered. They are not 1943s and they are not 1949s!

Continuing on, The 1944 set contains the exact same 24 *players* (poses are always the same between ALL R302 sets) as the 1943 set. Now, the 1944 set gets complicated because it appears the 3 different strips of 8 cards each, when printed, were printed in a bit of a different format from each other. Confusing? Let me try and explain. Remember the three strips of 8 cards each that make a sheet? Okay, I have confirmed the 1944 strip of 8 containing(in order): Boudreau, M. Cooper, Williams, Dickey, Foxx, Feller, Ott & W. Cooper to only exist in a printing format that does NOT include the ‘Made in U.S.A.’ designation on the back at the bottom right. So, these are found just blank at the bottom, after the dialogue. Note: Remember if it has the M.P.&Co. designation on the back bottom left it is a 1943 for sure, always. Anyhow, Those 8 cards, from the 1944 set, based on my experience, cannot be found WITH a “Made in U.S.A.” On the back bottom right.

However, the second strip of 8 from the 1944 set, containing(again in order) Mize, Reiser, Hack, Novikoff, Camilli, Ruffing, Hubbell & Greenberg is the opposite of the first 1944 strip mentioned above as that these cards can ONLY be found with the ‘Made in U.S.A.’ designation on the bottom back right when found from the 1944 set.

As if we needed more complication, now comes the third/final 8 card strip from the 1944 set. This strip contains (in order): Medwick, Vander Meer, Henrich, Reese, Danning, Cronin, Bonham & DiMaggio. The odd/confusing thing here, I have confirmed half the strip WITH and half the strip WITHOUT the ‘Made in U.S.A’ designation, with 1 exception. I have confirmed Reese, Danning, Cronin & Bonham to only exist With the ‘Made in U.S.A’ designation, while confirming Medwick, Vander Meer & Henrich(8 line back version) to only exist WITHOUT the designation.

The exception to the third strip is DiMaggio. As, He is the only player I have confirmed to exist within the 1944 set that can contain the ‘Made in U.S.A’ designation or can be found WITHOUT this designation (and a longer dialogue btw). DiMaggio is the only player I have found that contains 4 different print variations of this manner and I can’t explain why at this time. It should also be noted that 4 different variations of the Feller card exist, however this appears to be due to a corrections run within the 1944 set, as we saw happen within the production of the 1943 and 1949 sets (ex. 1943 - Williams spelling error, ex. 1949 - Lemon front team error), in that both versions of the 1944 Feller do not contain the ‘Made in U.S.A’ designation on the bottom back right and the dialogue is similar but shortened in the fourth version that I have confirmed. Note: We see this a lot when comparing the 1943 back’s dialogue to the counterpart card within the 1944 set. Many of the 1944 card’s back dialogue has been shortened or parts have been omitted when compared to the same card’s back dialogue from the 1943 set. Feller is just the only example I have seen of this within a single set year, the 1944 set.

Anyhow, because I have confirmed all 24 cards printed within the set to exist in a format that clearly does not conform with either of the previously known set descriptions, I’m interested in everyone’s thoughts as to my Proposal of this “newly Confirmed set” = 1944 M.P.&Co. Set!

BTW, in analyzing the dialogue on the back of the cards and more specifically the dialogue CHANGES on the back of the cards from set to set to set is how I determined this new third differentiated set to be printed in 1944. I have found numerous detail omissions and/or additions that help to confirm my 1944 hypothesis within the changes found in the dialogue on the backs of the cards.

While, I could continue on with numerous other subjects regarding these cards further spelling variations, paragraph variations, team variation errors, and so on, I am tired of typing at the moment and am looking forward to any and all HELPFUL input.

As detailed above, at this time, I have confirmed 73 different front/back combinations which, to my knowledge, comprises the Master R302 set. This does not include error variations such as the 1949 Lemon front team variation or the multiple Williams back spelling variations found in both the 1943 & 1949 sets, nor does it include the Feller dialogue variation within the 1944 set as I look at these variations as corrections made within the same print run.

The anomaly I am most looking to explain is the 1944 DiMaggio card. Why is this the only one that can be found WITH and WITHOUT the designation ‘Made in U.S.A’ on the back? If anyone has ANY card that does not specifically fit within the parameters laid out above of either the 1943, 1944, or 1949 sets please contact me. Or if anyone knows of any other ‘1944’ set card that is Confirmed both WITH and WITHOUT the ‘Made in U.S.A’ designation on the back (like I have found the DiMaggio to exist with), Please let me know

I’m hoping this will all make since to someone out there and maybe that person can help me further expound on my current findings. Thanks All,

Colton

Love that one! I would have jumped on it in a second. Severe registration errors are my favorite.

Although this is not a set I know a bunch about, I have owned a few. Nice recap of the sets and I'm guessing you're likely right, since you researched it that much.

R302 Combo
 

Thanks for this thread again Ted, and great analysis Colton. Here is my only "example" of an R302/M.P. & Co. card and it's a strip combo of two cards that I don't think should exist except in Reprint Hell (that I bought off Ebay for a few bucks in March):